Allen ADC Voicing

[julianjsoh]

I managed to spend a couple of hours voicing the 5300 at church today, and followed John's voicing instructions. I did realise that in a couple of stop groups, for example 17A which contains the 32' flues, I had to turn the gain to almost maximum before I could hear anything. I also had to boost the bass and midrange quite a bit before the stops even got to a close enough volume with the other pedal stops. This happened for some of the Great stops as well, with some groups having their gain at max before it sounded balanced with the rest. Yet in some other groups the gain was only about half-way through the pot's rotation, or slightly more. Is this normal?

Another question is how do I regulate the amount of reverb? There is a reverb stop on the organ, and there is reverb applied when it is switched on.


Thanks in advance.

[Hamman]

I managed to spend a couple of hours voicing the 5300 at church today, and followed John's voicing instructions. I did realise that in a couple of stop groups, for example 17A which contains the 32' flues, I had to turn the gain to almost maximum before I could hear anything. I also had to boost the bass and midrange quite a bit before the stops even got to a close enough volume with the other pedal stops. This happened for some of the Great stops as well, with some groups having their gain at max before it sounded balanced with the rest. Yet in some other groups the gain was only about half-way through the pot's rotation, or slightly more. Is this normal?

Another question is how do I regulate the amount of reverb? There is a reverb stop on the organ, and there is reverb applied when it is switched on.


Thanks in advance.

Depending on your room acoustics, and depending on where you're at, as the organist, all play different roles in volume(s) and phasing. Each install is unique to these characteristics. Did you set all your amplifier channel outputs at the same volume? Or? Because my 5300 is in the house I set the amps at 5 and then proceeded to voice per jbirds instructions. You may to set yours at 8 or higher since you are in a much bigger area.
Can't help you with your reverb since mine is home brewed vs factory. However, I do believe there are volume pots on the mixer board where the reverb is mixed in with the main sound.

[myorgan]

...I had to turn the gain to almost maximum before I could hear anything. I also had to boost the bass and midrange quite a bit before the stops even got to a close enough volume with the other pedal stops. This happened for some of the Great stops as well, with some groups having their gain at max before it sounded balanced with the rest. Yet in some other groups the gain was only about half-way through the pot's rotation, or slightly more. Is this normal?

Julianjsoh,

Unfortunately, yes, it appears to be normal. I've run into the same thing with my ADC-4300 (one step smaller model, but in same family). The Great is almost maxed out on the pots, and the Swell sounds louder than the Great unless I minimize the Swell a bit. I noticed the same thing even after I split the Great from Pedal stops by adding 2 amplifiers. The only other way to get the Great stronger was to turn up the amplifiers, but they were almost maxed out as well.

I have NOT noticed the same issue with either the ADC-6000 or ADC-5400. Hope this helps.

Michael

[julianjsoh]

Thanks Michael and Hamman. All the amplifier pots were put at 9. I feel slightly better knowing that someone else has the same issue. I had to turn up some groups to maximum, and I thought something must be wrong. But now I can finally hear and feel the 32' pedal stops! Quite a nice growl underpinning the ensemble I must say.

Nobody else has a clue about the reverb adjustments?

[myorgan]

Nobody else has a clue about the reverb adjustments?

Julianjsoh,

Can you tell what type of reverb you have inside the organ (i.e. ADR, or something else)? If you have the ADR, I believe I have a manual for it and can provide the information from that. Mine is not set up yet because it was swinging loosely inside the organ when I purchased it. I want to make sure it adds to the ensemble before I re-attach it.

Michael

[julianjsoh]

Michael, how do I tell the type of reverb that is installed? Where should I look?

[myorgan]

Michael, how do I tell the type of reverb that is installed? Where should I look?

Julianjsoh,

Check the following threads:

• http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?36624
• http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?33455
• http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?30257
• http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?12256 (some of the links don't work any more)
• http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?21330

I hope this list of reading assignments help you find what you're looking for.

I had hoped to find some threads with photos, but apparently they were on an off-site link, and the photos are no longer on the site. Basically, you're looking for where the signal goes into (& out of) a card with multiple pairs of RCA jacks (usually on opposite edges of the card). With each pair, one is the input, and the other side is the output.

So, have fun reading the threads, and you'll get more information than I can ever give. Meanwhile, if you find you have the same reverb module I have, I'd be happy to share the basic information with you. It will just confuse the issue if I share the information and you don't have the board.

I know Allen indicated some ADC organs with reverb as an "A" version (i.e. ADC-430A). I'm not sure if the same designation was used with larger organs. Of course, it could always be purchased after the sale as an add-on.

Michael

[julianjsoh]

Thanks Michael. I will look out for the reverb module.

On a separate note, I realise that the Allen key I have from a Quantum instrument can open the ADC. Does anybody know if Allen made the same keys for all their organs? That is quite puzzling if they did so.

[Menschenstimme]

Yes, Allen used the same key for all of their organs - at least since the first digitals. This may still be the case. If the newer organs have a different key/lock, then the change was relatively recent; but I know not when they changed. For one thing, this makes service easier when the technicians can always have the one correct key for every instrument.

I would not be surprised if there are other builders that did the same for simplicity and economy of scale. When you think about it, how likely is the holder of an Allen organ key going to sneak into a church and "break" into the organ and start playing or commit vandalism? NOT!

I know of a pipe organ builder who not only does the same thing with their console keys, but even has the key number engraved right on the front of the lock. Oh well . . .

[myorgan]

On a separate note, I realise that the Allen key I have from a Quantum instrument can open the ADC. Does anybody know if Allen made the same keys for all their organs? That is quite puzzling if they did so.

The same key opens all my Allens. However, the same can't be said for the combination action. My MOS-2 and the earlier ADC organs I have (6000 & 5400) use the same 2-position combination lock key, but the later ADC-4300 used a 4-position combination action with a different key. After the organs I have, I have no clue, but I think my organ key DOES open the Renaissance organ I do a concert on every summer. I remember trying it. Maybe the Opus organs have a different key?

Sometime I get ambitious, I'll get a photo of my Allen ADR module and card and post it here for you to see. It's not small at all, so it shouldn't be hard to find.

Michael

[eaaron]

Hello all,

I am tagging on to this thread as it is a great starting point for voicing ADC organs. And I need a bit of info if available and some advice.

I have started to begin tweaking some voicing on our 9300. I had help from a veteran setting the initial voicing, and have had a decent foundation knowing that there was much more to be done. So this week I pulled the panels to work on the bigger reeds in the Swell as they have never had the bite that I thought they should have. Specifically on Sunday with 600+ bodies eating up the highs. So I spent about 30 minutes tweaking the Trompette, Clairon and Bombarde getting a better blend letting them soar a little prouder. Of course I also had to deal with the Mixture IV also as the TG card is A -Trompette/Mixture and AA - Clarion/Mixture.

Everything was great until warming up for our first service this morning when the Mixtur came up like a screaming banshee. I wasn't entirely happy with the way the mixture sounded before or after my adjustments but it was tolerable. This was ear splitting. I didn't have time to look at the problem so I avoided the stop for the service. Between services I listened to the three linked stops and found the Clarion was very harsh, especially in the upper octaves. Popping into the cage I found the High freq trim pot crunchy to turn... the trim pot internal self destruction which I have seen all to often. Of course this one failed full open.

So I need to order a new pot. I haven't pulled the card to get the spec and re soldering is not a problem but before I do I was wondering if all the trim pots are the same values? Or if not does anyone know which ones are different? I figure I will order a couple dozen as they are fairly inexpensive and bulk quantities are even cheaper. Just having the parts ready to go means a 30 minute fix as opposed to waiting for parts.

I also need some advice on the Bombarde. This is on a different TG card I think TG-2 but that might not be correct. I don't have a cage chart home. I have several stops that are on these "one voice only" boards but I am not sure what the controls are. I assume the TBMG are the same but the additional trims I didn't want to go poking at until I knew what they were for. I am hoping it is balance of some sort between octaves as the top and bottom octaves of the Bombarde are like a whisper and the octave above middle C will make you cower.

Erik

[julianjsoh]

I'm sure John or one of the gurus around will be able to help with your questions, Erik.

While we're on this, I also wanted to know if there was any way to adjust specific octaves/notes within a certain stop group. While I've been able to voice the 5300 at Church pretty well to my ears, there's always the problem of the odd note or group of notes which stick out and are overly boomy. It makes balancing relative gain levels between groups of stops more difficult, as I don't know which set of notes I should be listening to while adjusting the gain. Are there any controls that can help with this? In any case, the general balance between stop groups is about right now (I followed John's instructions on the voicing and they were great), although there are the odd notes that stick out.

[jbird604]

A couple of observational replies ....

(1) The various pots used on TG boards for BTMG controls are unfortunately not all the same value. I don't have the material at hand, but I do recall a service letter from Allen on the subject, and that certain controls are (maybe) 10K and others are 5K, or something like that. It should be obvious once you pull the boards and look at them, or measure across them with a meter. Before you replace one, be sure that it's not just "dirty." They can sure jump values when they are, and that is why we "exercise" them before voicing. A tiny drop of WD-40 worked into the pot might even do some good if simple exercising does not.

(2) Some ADC tone generator boards use an entirely different manner of voicing, particularly the TT-4 and TT-5 (I think these are the right names -- ones that produce the special chimes and trompette harmonique and other exotic stops on the biggest ADC models). On these boards, rather than a simple BTMG scheme, you have REGION controls. These require some extra work to get them adjusted.

Starting at the bottom of the board, you have a group of maybe 8 or 10 pots all in a row. These pots control the LEVEL of a single group of notes, normally spanning 5 to 10 keys. Start by turning them all the way off (counter-clockwise). Turn up the bottom pot half-way and check the volume of the first few keys. Adjust as needed, then move on to the next group, and so on. Some of these boards may also have general BTMG controls in addition to the region controls, and if so, adjust them as always, after you have the individual region levels set to your liking.

(3) On the standard ADC models, those with ordinary TG-2, 3, 5, 6, and 8 boards, there is unfortunately no way to perfectly deal with those notes now and then that seem to stick out as too loud. Since all the pitches come from the same sample anyway, they "should" all sound the same volume, affected only by your adjustments to the BTMG controls. Notes that are too loud are almost surely due to some interaction between the speakers and the room. You might be able to tame these anomalies to some extent by moving the speakers around, angling them more or less toward a hard surface, adjusting the tweeter slider (if present), or even trying a different model tone cabinet, such as HC-12 instead of HC-15 in certain situations. I do know that these effects are real, and they are audible. You are not imaging this. Sometimes you have to re-think your voicing on a given channel, doing something unusual such as turning the midrange control up or down by a considerable degree, then re-adjusting the level (which will be drastically affected when you tinker with the midrange).

[myorgan]

I am tagging on to this thread as it is a great starting point for voicing ADC organs. And I need a bit of info if available and some advice.

Erik,

In voicing my ADC organs, I've tinkered and tinkered with them from one space to another, always experiencing the odd anomaly and voicing I wasn't satisfied with. Then I had a bright idea--why not use the voicing guide provided by Allen? When I did, I found most (but not all) the odd anomalies were either tamed and/or disappeared.

Some examples of the anomalies I experienced (on the 4300 before following the voicing chart):

• The Great Mixture IV (derived from 2 separate cards) screamed away because I was trying to get more bite out of the Trumpet 8'.
• The Great Flute Dolce II (also derived from 2 separate cards) had some aliasing sound like a hiss until I reduced the Treble & some Mid from the channel carrying the Prinzipal 8' (I prefer a brighter sound for my Prinzipals).
• The Pedal 16' Principal had too much tubby Bass to it, and the 16' Lieblich Gedackt was too strong, so I reduced it. The problem is it rendered the 16' Posaune with little or no foundation at all.
• The Swell 8' Trompette needed more sizzle/fire, but it ended up making the Cymbal III and Fife 1' a bit too bright for the ensemble.

Moral of the story, I've found following the voicing guide in detail and in order generally yields a good foundation from which to build. Until I followed the guide provided, I thought I had a good ear, but found out I wasn't as good as I thought I was.

I've never understood some of Allen's groupings of stops on a particular card. Perhaps they think putting a Swell Trompette 8' with most of the voices above 4' could effectively separate them on the card (the Bass won't affect the upper pitches, while the Treble won't affect the Trompette), but generally there is some crossover somewhere. That's the part that gets me every time.

Michael

[eaaron]

John,

Thanks the info on the TT boards sounds like it is just what I need. I have 9 or 10 stops each on their own board, with many more trim pots than the TG-8 board including the Swell Bombarde. Hopefully that will solve the imbalance.

As for the trim pot on the Clairon I had the noisy pot issue several months ago, had a Montre 8' that also fried eggs, worried me for a minute but just exercised all the trims on that TG board and good as new, but this one is a dead soldier. It has the tell tail physical plastic on plastic grinding of the wiper broken from the shaft. A bit odd that it broke and went full open. In most electronics I've dealt with these they usually fail open when they go, but this on decided it did not want to go quietly.

Michael,

I agree with the voicing process. I have tried to teach our techs at work, the manufacturer spent lots of money and many thousands of hours on R&D. Don't try and reinvent the wheel. I don't have an official guide for this model, but I see the pattern in what Allen has in the smaller organs. If anyone out there has a 9300( or even 8300/8600) guide I would love to read through it.

I spent several hours last year with a fellow organist and seasoned Allen voicer. We got through about 90% of the Great and Choir, 85% of the Swell, and 60% of the Pedals. We focused on the foundation of the organ as the church hadn't heard one in decades, and I was getting back into having an instrument to play regularly after more than 10 years without. The majority of what was left was solo reeds, odds and ends and seeing how the sound would react once the space was full of absorbent people, plus the fact that we did not at the time, and are still waiting for, any sub-bass cabs. Makes voicing the 32' and some of the 16' stops difficult.:P I have been very happy with foundations and flue stops. I have found the string stops sound great when the church is empty, are ok on summer Sundays but have more an issue when we have a normal September to June crowd (about 550-600 people). They just kind of go bleh in the ensemble. The Mid reeds are good too. Neither of us were all that happy with the Mixtures on any of the Divisions and left them at a place where they weren't offensive. We just didn't spend the time on the voices that were not necessary but I now want to start adding now that I have gotten more comfortable with my playing.

As I said I am just starting to tweak some as I hear things I don't like. Bud I don't know that I want to start from scratch. However it might be worth it if it means clearing out problems stemming from steps earlier.

Erik