Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

[radagast]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

post moved here:
<post>8230</post>

[buzzyreed]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

ok so I have no idea if this topic was covered yet, due to the rather confusing nature of whatever is going on with the following posts, but has anyone heard a veritas organ? I stumbled unto their website and I dare say it is the most realistic electronic I've heard. http://www.veritasorgans.com/installation.htm

I also really like some of the sounds of the cantor and eminent organs. The thing is they don't seem to use so much 'fake reverb' that all the other organ samples tend to use.

http://churchorgansales.com/

The Rogers and Allen sounds just aren't all the impressive to me. Of course, it is all most congregations can afford, and ours is one of those. I tried out a brand new, super duper Allen and was much less than impressed.

I have never played any of the other premium electronics so I guess it could be a matter of sound conditions.

buzzy

[M1994]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Everything I've gathered on the topic...(beware, long read)
My breakdown from recordings and anything else found online(I've looked like hell for tons, and have heard way more than any previous statements mentioned) I've mentioned things from personal experience, but trying to be as fair as possible:

- The cantor and eminent are right out. Sound very fake-ish to me. I'll have to throw those out right away. Consoles look nice though. Always seem to sound out of tune, and sure pipe organs aren't tuned perfect, the ones I commonly play, are maintained rather well, that might have something to do with it. (samples found on www.churchorgansales.com/)

- Content - It doesn't sound good to me at all. Listen to the Mendellson sonata on their website (www.content-organs.com) and the first movement doesn't sound right, the second....the solo voice doesn't sound like it's coming from an organ (and as to trying to identify what it's supposed to be....wow I'm stumped...this isn't the only song that doesn't sound good to me from here) Consolewise...looks kinda shoddy too. Reminds me of my Rodgers C-440 at church (that I absolutely despise the console of as mentioned)(note: Samples found at www.content-organs.com)

- Johannus - I can smell the fakeness on those, and also has some good hints of the syndrome posted above. If the rumour about console quality, cable shielding problems, and inadequate audio systems hold true, I'd stay clear away from these...although some of those consoles look awesome...and if they're MIDI, I wouldn't mind buying one just to "hauptwerk" it (samples found at www.johannus.com)

-Allen and Rodgers, the famous rivals, they don't sound oh so terrible, but they both seem to have what I call "perfect organ" syndrome..which as we all know, no real pipe organ is perfect. Ever. Which is why it is perfect....?? hah. To sum it up, both of these sound rather similar (although I give Allen the edge contrary to previous statements) they're both also been said by several members here, to be overpriced (I haven't gotten a quote on Allen, but can say that Rodgers are DEFINITELY too expensive for what you get) Consolewise...Allen, unless you're getting the biggest 3 models of renaissance 4 manuals, you're getting the smaller console, which don't feel like a pipe organ console...Rodgers consoles...once again, don't seem to look big enough (yeah, sure a small organs a small organ, but a pipe organ console is a pipe organ console...call me spoiled, but those side cheeks look tiny) And about Allen, I personally don't like their keyboards, at least on the MDS-38s, and (unknown) models I've played. The Rodgers C-440 at my church is also of absolutely unacceptable quality (Italy built I believe) The pedals make a lot of noise while playing (the physical pedals...the principal 16 is barely audible at low c, but is a fault of the audio system I believe, not the instrument itself..was installed for free I think/hope...(nobody should have paid for that. Very shoddy) (Allen samples www.allenorgan.com, Rodgers samples www.rodgersinstruments.co.uk...the american site has only the MX-200 MIDI module samples online)

- Copeman Hart: Excellent sounding, and it's what made me believe in synthesis (after hearing Cantor and Eminent I was wholly discouraged) not sure about price or anything other than sound from online samples, but sounds pretty solid. consoles look pretty good to me too (the smaller ones may look a tad small...but you don't have to buy absolute top of the line to get a nice looking instrument)(no official samples, found at www.organsandorganistsonline.com so for all I know these could be 15 year old organs playing)

- Veritas - I'll stack it up there....these things sound good. Real good. From pictures of consoles, don't look too bad either. Stack it in my top 3 (samples found at www.veritasorgans.com)

- Legacy (made my Marshall and Ogletree, mentioned to avoid confusion) - Sounds very excellent on recordings, and sure recordings aren't good for an idea of the sound, they are a good idea of comparison (digital organ builders are around to either record, or synthesize pipe organ sounds, but to do either properly, you need a critical ear to judge the job you've done, and if you release recordings on your own website, I'm sure you use that same critical ear to decide which ones to post up for grabs) There is only one of these so far, and is apparently in a great acoustic, may give it an advantage, but even without it....on the recording itself, it's tough to tell whether it was recorded off pipes, or off recordings of pipes. (samples found at www.legacyorgans.com)

- Phoenix - Sound absolutely superb. See above 2 reviews....(samples found at www.phoenixorgans.com and www.phoenix-organs.co.uk..the hyphen in the 2nd one is important, without, you get to a broken old site?)

Now these last 3 (Phoenix, Legacy, Veritas) all sound/look excellent, and if they look and sound great, I'm sure they're a joy to play as well (as far as digitals go...and I've played a Phoenix, and was satisifed, so theoretically, I could probly say the same about Legacy and Veritas, judging by online pictures of the consoles which look of real high quality) If a pipe organ weren't a possibility, but any digital organ would go, I'd inquire on those 3 companies for price, options, what I could do, etc. These in my opinion are the target that the rest of those companies I wrote down should be aiming for. Lower prices by building shoddier consoles (most) using less audio channels (several of those up there are guilty) just not creating the same level sound (Rodgers Insignia is one of the guilty parties there...compare an insignia to a trillium and see what I mean, the samples are availble on their UK website (www.rodgersinstruments.co.uk) If money were not an object, I'd go with one of the above 3 (whoever could build an organ to my taste..it'd probably come down to one or two stops sounding better on one organ, etc.) As far as I know, they all do custom instruments (and don't charge extra for it...in fact, none of them really have stock models...and Phoenix's "stock models" are P(T or D, tabs or drawknobs) ### (first digit is # of manuals, next 2 are # of stops) And as far as I know, they took the first several organs they made, and made these model numbers for ease of buying for churches with organists who aren't really...organists. The one I played is played every Sunday by someone who is actually a pianist (but still does an excellent job) and really wouldn't be able to tell exactly what she wanted/needed, so she ordered a PT339, and that is MUCH easier to do. Legacy, some argue they've only made one, but Bill (Radagast) has mentioned they have a few more in the works now, so this could take off (hopefully, for better competition of GOOD digital organs) Veritas, don't know much about them really (not much has been said) but I do know that off of the Phoenix website, it links to a FORMER dealer of theirs (they might wanna change that link) in California I believe it is, who left Phoenix and now deals Veritas organs. The full deal from me (everything I know about these things) is right there. Phoenix, Veritas, and Legacy get my win. If I were to choose between those three, it would be like choosing between 3 pipe organs. It would come down to:

"I believe we've reached the point in technological progress, or will do so soon, where the deciding factor between given instruments will be the tonal design, the voicing, and the installation--in other words, those very same factors that distinguish pipe organs."
(from the first page of this topic)

I've spent a LOT of time on this, because in that review there was several cheap shots against the C-440 at my church, and I want it replaced. Sooner rather than later, so a combination of shopping, and this topic, got me searching around for all this like a madman. I hope I was informative as possible.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.


>>>m1994: great post above,

in regards to your noisey pedalboard on your Rodgers C440 at your church, is it "clacky"? My Rodgers 530 digital made also in Italy had a awful lclacky noise whenver you played a pedal of wood hitting wood.. VERY annoying....

I fixed it myself by carefully disconnecting the pedalboard (be careful to unscrew and disconnect the computer cable from the console to the pedal after you pull the pedalboard back).

Once you do that you unscrew about 100 screws on a big metal plate behind the frame...there are literally 100 screws so a electric screwdriver would be great if you have one) ...

then you can get in and place self-adhesive felt you can get at any hardware store (I used 1/8' circles) and carefully placed one on the pedalboard where the pedal was hitting the wood of the frame direct. I also placed some on the SIDES as it was clacking whenever the pedals hit sideways as well.

After I did all that it now is quiet as a mouse. I suspect your felts are worn down like mine were. It takes maybe an hour to do this, just be very very careful on disconnecting the cable between the console and the pedalboard so you don't bend it/break it off.

It made a night and day difference in playing my Rodgers 530 to eliminate that clacking, and if that is the problem I would HIGHLY recommend doing this.

[buzzyreed]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Well I have never heard a Johannus organ, so I can't comment on that. As to Cantor/ eminent being out of tune, it's acutally in a temperment.. the way real organs are tuned. The veritas seems to have much going for it, except some voicing issues. It sounds like the gawd-awful things we find only in Episcopal churches around here, as if someone has never heard an historical organ before and is only going off of what they heard down the street or on the BBC service broadcast of 9 lessons and carols (barf, barf, barf). Still Veritas, if it were voiced and tempered properly could be useable. Some of these webpages for other organs incooperate way, way too much fake reverb.

Well, that's my two cents, $56,000 more and two morgages and maybe I could afford one of these babies.

cheerio,

buzzy

[M1994]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

thanks for the tips farmboy...buuut I'm not sure if my priest would be cool with me taking off with the pedalboard one Sunday...or sitting and fixing it there for that matter (but yes, it is beginning to drive me nuts). And the local guy would probably charge too many bucks (besides, I don't want this organ have any unneccesary money put into it, since I'm campaigning for a new one...maybe if we get it and I buy the C-440 to off them I may do that) as far as temperaments go, in my humble opinion, the temperaments on those 2 organs (Cantor and Eminent) are greatly exaggerated (the eminent not as bad, but still exaggerated) and in saying "the way real organs are tuned" don't underestimate me because I'm only 19. I have played organs of varying age, and on both sides of the sea (real ones mind you) and one I played in a church in Bielsko Biala Poland, is in a temperament (excuse me for not knowing which, it was 5 years ago....back when I didn't know nothing about temperaments) and sounded excellent. Also, listen to the Eminent playing "Lo he comes with clouds descending". I was greatly disappointed how the 3rd verse which was supposed to be full chorus with reeds (as a pose to the 2nd being a principal chorus in the swell, and Principals 8,4, cornet and trumpet) should have technically blown me out of my seat (no matter how many times I play these instruments, I can't help but grin at the last verse of a hymn blowing me away) but what was written as the selected stops, didn't match what my ears heard. We all however, have different ears. Some of those eminents are nice looking consoles. If you like em, power to you. I'll say that in supplying the sources of where I heard all the sound samples, I recommend you to listen to all of them. If you want samples with mostly real reverb (from my knowledge) I'm quite sure the Veritas wasn't digital reverb. The samples on Phoenix's British website were recorded in Moneyglass cathedral Ireland I beileve, and the word cathedral leads me to believe no fake reverb was necessary. Legacy has no fake reverb either (I hope not at least, because it has been mentioned the organ is in a great acoustical environment) Allen, I'll take a page from Radagasts post, and say to listen to "echoes of the basillica" (go to the CDs for sale on the allen website, and you can hear several samples, albeit poor quality online, you get an idea)

[buzzyreed]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

deleted

[M1994]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Just wanna pipe in, got several prices quotes from Phoenix, and they are VERY reasonable. To the tune of, once I'm finished school, I will probably purchase a 3 manual instrument for my home reasonable.

[buzzyreed]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Oh what planet do YOU live? After your done paying for school, you'll be lucky to manage paying your cable bill. Music grads (epecially organists) make next to nothing. Unless you live in some magical world I'm not familiar with, you'll end up driving a beat up chevette and pracitcing on a Hammond down at the Salvation Army. Sorry to break the buble, dude. :-) Grad school is free wtih scholarships but your stipend is so small you'll have to borrow money to park your car within five miles of campus.

[M1994]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Luckily for me, music's a hobby. I'm more into electronics than anything. Plus, another hobby is mechanics. I can get a decent car for a decent price. I'm the reason my family has more than one vehicle (and the reason we have a lot more stuff due to money saved) I guess most people don't know an organist who can rebuild an engine.....

[buzzyreed]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

What the HELL is up with this: (taken from the Phoenix webstie)

Several well-known electronic organ companies do not use real digital sampling.

(huh?)

Claims by such companies should be taken with some degree of skepticism. Synthesis, an older technology invented in the 1970's, is still widely used in church organs today, and even though the technology has been up-graded countless times, you may be very surprised at the inaccuracy of organ pipe emulation.

blah blah blah..

A good test to demonstrate the exactness of an electronic organ system is to see how well it can reproduce one of the most recognizable sounds there is, the human voice.

What??

I repeat, "What?"

How about how well it reproduces an organ pipe? The human voice? Why not a dog bark?

On any Phoenix organ, a CD-quality recording of your or my voice can be placed in the memory chips and played back whenever a key is pressed.

Well, whoopdie doo. That's what hauptwerk does too, and they use organs with a bit of style and temperment, not this bland 'corner church' sound.

It will be instantly recognized as exactly the same clear voice that was recorded. Most organ manufacturers will flatly refuse to demonstrate such a thing.

Probalby becuase it is the stupidest thing they've ever heard of.

This could be the acid test for exact replication of a sound and it is a well-known fact that most home computers are capable of doing this very thing with little trouble.

Yea, so purchase Hauptwerk

It also demonstrates some of the amazing capabilities and flexibility of the Phoenix System in reproducing acoustic sounds.

What, that it can do what my PC does but costs thousands of dollars more?

When applied to organ pipes, think of the realism that can be attained. It's unbelievable. Never before has sampling technology been taken so far specifically for the church organ.

A toaster oven is still a toaster oven. There is nothign that can replace the 'feel' of pipes. ugh.


I await the mud slinging.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Buzzy...regarding the original thread subject...what is the best electronic organ in your opinion?

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

The weak part of every electronic organ are still the speakers. Thats why there is still a big difference between a real pipe organ and an electronic one. As long as you hear them on CD, it sounds acceptable, although the reverbs are sometimes not realistic. (added to the samples or directly recorded)

Most of the discussion till now was about Allen versus Phoenix.

Let me introduce some other, more exclusive manufacturers:

http://www.vanderpoelkerkorgels.nl

http://www.kienle-orgeln.de/englisch/patent1.html

http://www.woop-digitalpfeifen-orgel...Pfeifen11.htm#

The first builder is using lots of amplifiers/speakers, the other ones developed their own systems. Especially the last one: I can't believe that it gives a good result, when you mount membranes in organ pipes ?! This is suggestive. Or not?

[radagast]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Ladegast? Your name sounds vaguely familiar.

[radagast]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

http://www.woop-digitalpfeifen-orgel...Pfeifen11.htm#

Unfortunately, I can't read German and they don't appear to have an English site.