Forum Top Banner Ad

Collapse

Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Got my HC12's!

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Got my HC12's!

    Greetings everyone. I was blessed by a fellow musician to acquire a pair of Allen HC12 speakers. However, I need some pics or something to show me how to properly connect these to my 122C. I do not have any speaker wire at present, so I will need to know what gauge I should find. Somebody had shown me a thread somewhere on the forum before - Michael, I think it was you....so if somebody can direct me to it, that would be helpful. I just don't want to hook up the speakers the wrong way and ruin them or blow something up! LOL!!

    I'll have pics and hopefully a video when I finally get everything in working order.
    Craig

    Hammond L143 with Leslie 760

  • #2
    Craig,

    In another thread regarding Conn Speaker Pips[sic], one person mentioned using an extension cord to connect the speakers, but I'd recommend going to the big box hardware store, and getting small spool of speaker wire (like that used in outdoor speaker systems). The advantage is that it's easier to keep track of which half of the pair you have on the left terminal vs. right terminal.

    For your situation, I would recommend you look for actual braided/stranded speaker cord that is 16/2 or 16/4 and jacketed. If that's not available, you can go to 14/2. To further define what I've just written, electrical cord can either be solid core, (which is susceptible to breakage) or stranded with about 10-30 strands of much smaller copper wire twisted together (braided). The 14 or 16 stands for the gauge (you can go as small as 18 ga. for your system). The larger the gauge, the better conductivity it has over long distances. The 2 or 4 simply refers to the number of wires inside the jacket (the jacket holds it all together).

    When you connect the wire from the organ to the speaker, I would recommend getting spade connectors for the wire you purchase, getting an electrical multi-tool to strip the wire and crimp the spade connectors on. Otherwise, you can just wrap the wire ends around the terminal screws on the amplifier and speakers.

    I'll assemble some things and take a photo, which should explain how to connect.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

    Comment


    • #3
      For the speaker wire, could I find the type you are talking about at, say, a Radio Shack, or is there a better type of store to go to? Radio Shack is pricey, I think.
      Yes, if I could see a picture of the back of the organ and how the wires are connected, that would be really helpful to me. I've read about organs having multiple channels and certain wires going into certain channels. I'm hoping it's less complicated than that for my 122C. I'm hoping that it's just a matter of connecting both cables to the terminals at the back of the amp and then into the back ends of the speakers.
      Craig

      Hammond L143 with Leslie 760

      Comment


      • #4
        There "may" be a speaker relay inside the console with terminal strips, and a couple of terminals specifically for connecting external speakers. However, unless the organ was sold by the original dealer with some speaker cabinets, these relays and terminals are not likely to be there. To be honest, I would fool with using those terminals, unless they are very handy and extremely well marked.

        If I were you, I'd disconnect the internal speakers of that 122 and hook the HC-12s up directly to the amplifier speaker terminals. I "think" you can easily ID the amps in your console. Probably T-50 amps, but some kind of standard Allen organ amplifiers, they are shiny metal assemblages with a transformer or two on top, along with a couple of tubular capacitors on top as well. Each amp has two or three RCA input jacks with cables connected to the jacks. (the cables connect from the DAC board, the expression pedal, and the relay or "voicing" knob). Don't mistake a power supply for an amp, as they will also have transformers and capacitors. But only amps will have sets of three RCA plugs on them.

        So each of the two amps has these RCA inputs, and also has a two-position terminal strip for speaker connection. On those two terminals you may actually see multiple wires connected, as there are separate wires running to the "presence projectors" which are tiny speakers built into the front of the console on either side of the stop rail, and then there are the wires running to the internal speakers or possibly to some speaker relays or a headphone system, if such a thing happens to have been installed.

        You can safely remove all the wires from those speaker terminals, if you plan to use the HC-12s exclusively as your organ speakers. (Take some pictures of the terminals and all the wires before you remove them, just in case you should need to put them back in place.) This is what I recommend because, for one thing, the HC-12s are FAR better speakers than the built-in units in the console. For another thing, it will get the sound away from your ears. You can place the cabinets on another wall or somewhere facing up at the ceiling, or just angled so they can bounce the sound off some surfaces before it gets to your ears. This will make for more pleasant sound from the MOS system in that organ.

        Get some ordinary zip cord to use as speaker wire. It's best to use #16 gauge wire for runs up to 100' (and that ought to be enough! unless you plan to put your speakers in the neighbors' house). Note the polarity is marked on zip cord: One side of the cord is "ribbed" or striped, and you should consider that side as the "positive" wire and the other "smooth" side as the "common" wire.

        On the amplifier, you will probably see one terminal marked with either a + sign or with a number, such as "4-16" or something like that. That is the "positive" terminal. The other terminal will be marked with a "C" for "common". Sometimes on Allen amps, the + terminal is painted red and the common is painted black (using a marker).

        The HC-12 cabinets have terminals on the back which are also marked to ID the "positive" and the "common" wire connections. So you run your wire from the organ console to the speaker cabinet, attaching the positive wire at each end to the positive terminal and the common wire to the common terminals.

        Some HC-12 cabinets have three terminals on the strip instead of just two. One of them will be a direct connection to the woofer, and should be marked in some way to indicate that it is for that use. I'm really not sure what was the purpose of doing this, but no doubt there was a reason. Just ignore that woofer connector and wire only to the positive and the common terminals.

        You may need to adjust the volume controls on the amplifiers after you do this, as the HC-12 cabinets may be either louder or softer than the built-in speakers were. You'll find that the 8' Principal on the great is in one channel, and the 8' Hohlflote is in the other. You can balance them so that they are approximately equal in level and you will be about right. You may also need to verify the level of the 16' pedal stops. If they are too loud or too soft after adjusting the overall channel levels, you should find some small "bass boost" controls either on or next to the DAC board.

        Hope this isn't TMI, but maybe it will point you in the right direction. Good luck!
        John
        ----------
        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

        Comment


        • #5
          To expand on myorgan's suggestion about speaker wire from a big box store (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.), for many years now I've been using 16/2 outdoor low-voltage lighting/speaker wire. It's similar in appearance to zip cord, but the insulation is heavier for outdoor/buried use and *much* less expensive than wire rated for AC line voltage. The heavier insulation also holds up much better to common stage abuse, like rolling the organ platform casters over it (with the organ on it - ask me how I know :-)).

          Most retailers also charge a ridiculous premium for 'speaker wire' when those of us in the electronics industry know that the difference for our purposes is non-existent.

          --- Tom
          Rodgers 660 with additional analog rack sets (practice), 36D/C in digital conversion, Yamaha CVP-107

          Comment


          • #6
            Craig,

            By big box stores, I was referring to *owes or *ome *epot.
            Originally posted by musikfan View Post
            Yes, if I could see a picture of the back of the organ and how the wires are connected, that would be really helpful to me.
            [snip]
            I'm hoping that it's just a matter of connecting both cables to the terminals at the back of the amp and then into the back ends of the speakers.
            I just happened to find a spare jumper in my speaker tool box, so I pieced some things together for a photo (below). The photo shows one end connected to an AM-100 amplifier (your S-100 terminals will be horizontal rather than vertical). The wire jacket is brown, and the 2 wires inside are black and white, respectively. On the other end of the wire (near the crimping tool), is a small terminal strip with the wires connected like they would be on the back of the speaker. When you connect the speakers, just be sure they are both connected the same orientation on the amplifiers, and the same orientation on the speakers.

            Hope the photo helps.

            Michael
            Attached Files
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
              Some HC-12 cabinets have three terminals on the strip instead of just two. One of them will be a direct connection to the woofer, and should be marked in some way to indicate that it is for that use. I'm really not sure what was the purpose of doing this, but no doubt there was a reason. Just ignore that woofer connector and wire only to the positive and the common terminals.
              To follow up on John's post, I do know that ALL the HC-12 speakers I received with my MOS-2 505B organ had the 3 terminal screws on the back of the speaker, but only the 2 connections on the left had terminal screws. The third terminal on the right had no screw. IIRC, the center terminal was the Common terminal, and the left was Positive.

              In reality, John, does it matter with the MOS organs if the polarity matches the terminal labels, as long as they're connected the same? I know it didn't matter on my MOS-2 organ or on the ADC organs. Just checking.

              Michael
              Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
              • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
              • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
              • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

              Comment


              • #8
                If you want to stay away from lamp cord (which works just fine but looks a little low rent), the below link is a good low-cost option. Any of the 16/2 or 14/2 varieties work fine, and this is closer to what Allen would have used (the ubiquitous brown or gray 2-conductor 16-gauge) and cheaper than Home Depot or Lowe's. The big box hardware stores usually have Carol or similar 16-ga 2-conductor and sometimes 4-conductor gray riser-rated wire, and I have seen 14/2 there occasionally too. It's absolutely fine wire, but it's definitely a little more marked up than you can get similar wire other places online like Firefold.

                I've gone through thousands of feet of Firefold's speaker wire in the past year, and the 16/2 or 14/2 Vertical cable is very nicely flexible and reasonably priced. "In wall" just means riser-rated twisted pair, it's perfectly fine for general use.

                https://www.firefold.com/in-wall-speaker-wire

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by michaelhoddy View Post
                  ROFL!!!:->

                  I think Craig only needs 30'-40', not 500'!;-) On the other hand, Michael, thanks for the link. I may give them some business when I run out of my current spool of 14/2 with the yellow jacket.

                  Michael
                  Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                  • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                  • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                  • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                    ROFL!!!:->

                    I think Craig only needs 30'-40', not 500'!;-) On the other hand, Michael, thanks for the link. I may give them some business when I run out of my current spool of 14/2 with the yellow jacket.

                    Michael
                    You DID see the "by the foot" option as the first item at the top left of the page before you mashed down that "Reply" button, didn't you? ;-)

                    At $.21 a foot, it's less than half what Home Depot charges for the same product by the foot, and the wire is at least as good and probably better.

                    I get that small quantities are almost more troublesome. If you're looking for 30-40 feet, perhaps I should start a "wire by mail" service. I have a LOT of scraps in those sizes.
                    Last edited by michaelhoddy; 06-02-2016, 04:32 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      WOW! You guys are incredibly knowledgeable. Who needs an instruction manual?? At any rate, with all this info, I should be up and running in the very near future. I shouldn't have any problems finding speaking wire according to y'all's information here. Many thanks to everyone again for your helpful input! I'll be in touch soon...
                      Craig

                      Hammond L143 with Leslie 760

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Craig -- If you are still wondering and don't know yet, your Allen 122 has two separate audio channels, which means there are two amplifiers inside, and you will need to connect an HC-12 speaker to each one. Connect the speakers directly to each amp, NOT to each other. Whatever kind of speaker wire you get will surely be OK, since you probably won't be running it very far.

                        All the advice given above is good. While I use Belden twisted-pair #16 in a plastic sheath for most church installations, I find that common brown zip cord from Radio Shack, or the outdoor zip cord that someone mentioned above, or the clear-coated speaker wire sold in Walmart all to be perfectly good for running a few feet in a home setup. My organ at home connects with ordinary white zip cord that I got at Radio Shack, and I chose white because the baseboards are white and the white cable is nearly invisible stapled to them. (Makes my wife happier.)

                        Regarding polarity, Michael. With a MOS-1 organ like the OP has, while it's not absolutely vital to be sure the + of the amp goes to the + of the speakers, it is important that all the speakers be wired the same way, even if there is only one speaker on each amp. Reason being that the MOS-1 system is phase-locked (except for the occasional one you'll find with the optional Frequency Separation feature), so the fundamental frequencies of all the stops are the same.

                        That means that if you draw the 8' principal and 8' flute together, when playing in the lower half of the keyboard you will get a reinforcement of the fundamental tone, as long as the speakers are identically phased. If one of the speakers is out of phase with each other, you'll actually hear the fundamental tone decrease when you add the flute to the principal.

                        This little issue does not apply to MOS-2 organs, because all MOS-2 models, even the smallest with a single computer, do NOT have phase-locked tuning between channels, as the "frequency separation" option of MOS-1 was standard on all MOS-2 organs. It also does not apply to any ADC and later models, because all the channels on newer Allen organs are completely indepedent in tuning and will not interact in that way, so as to cause the fundamentals to be reduced.

                        One exception to this statement -- the models (M)ADC 3100 and 3160. On these two models, the swell actually DOES become phase-locked to the great when and only when the swell-to-great coupler is drawn, and you are playing on the great manual. Since the swell stops have their own audio channels, it is important with these two models to be sure that all channels are wired in identical polarity.

                        So, the general instruction is to follow the labels. Wire the + terminal of the amp (or the speaker relay or terminal strip) to the + terminal of the speaker cabinet, and wire the "C" or common terminal of the amp or relay to the common terminal of the speaker cabinet. If you do it that way consistently, you won't go wrong. I'm certainly not OCD about it, when wiring up an organ for testing in the shop, but when we do an installation we always observe the labels, just so someone won't come along in the future and say "look what those knuckle-heads did!"

                        Of course, I won't even get into the goofy issue of mixing different types of speakers on the same organ (such as HC-12s with HC-15s), which can, under certain circumstances, introduce other phasing problems. For the most part, we simply avoid mixing speaker types on the same organ, except for using HC-12s on the channel of any ADC or MDS model with a 32' ContreBourdon. In that case, if using two HC-12s just make sure they are identically phased with each other. Again, the + to + and C to C rule will suffice.
                        John
                        ----------
                        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                          Regarding polarity, Michael. With a MOS-1 organ like the OP has, while it's not absolutely vital to be sure the + of the amp goes to the + of the speakers, it is important that all the speakers be wired the same way, even if there is only one speaker on each amp. Reason being that the MOS-1 system is phase-locked (except for the occasional one you'll find with the optional Frequency Separation feature), so the fundamental frequencies of all the stops are the same.
                          John,

                          Thank you for the clarification. I always defer to you for the hard questions!:-B As always, I learned something I did not know. Thank you, John, and thank you, Craig for starting the question.

                          Michael
                          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                          • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                            ROFL!!!:->

                            I think Craig only needs 30'-40', not 500'!;-) On the other hand, Michael, thanks for the link. I may give them some business when I run out of my current spool of 14/2 with the yellow jacket

                            Michael
                            Ha ha!! No, I only need about 50 feet. I plan to run the speakers about 15 feet away from the organ.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                            John,

                            Thank you for the clarification. I always defer to you for the hard questions!:-B As always, I learned something I did not know. Thank you, John, and thank you, Craig for starting the question.

                            Michael
                            My pleasure to be part of a helpful discussion! Thank you again for the info.
                            Craig

                            Hammond L143 with Leslie 760

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK everyone. I hooked up the copper wires to the positive on the back of the speakers - I believe that is the screw to the far left, and the middle one is the negative/common. On the two amps in the back of the organ, I disconnected the internal speakers and connected the positives to the screw that had the 4 over it, and the other ones to the left have the word "com" over it which I assume means "common" which would be the negative. If I am wrong someone correct me. So, they're hooked up but they sound terrible- distorted and thin. I put the volume pedal up all the way and then adjusted the amp volume knobs. I have to turn them almost all the way up to get anything that sounds decent. Still, they are distorted and thin. I had better and LOUDER sound from the internal speakers, and my externals are not more than 15 feet away. So what did I do wrong??
                              Craig

                              Hammond L143 with Leslie 760

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X