Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

[Vercus]

Hey Guys,
I was wondering if anyone here was familiar with the Baldwin 711 organ? It's a 2 manual with 25 pedals, that's all I know. I'm interested to know if it's a worthwhile organ to get? I ask because there's one on ebay that's within driving distance of me and real cheap. Plus I found a lead for a Baldwin Panoramic Tone Convertor- wondering if it would work with that organ?

What I am interested to know is primarily about the generator- mainly, how many does it have? Is this one that uses one or two generators and tries to derive several different sounds by blending them? The 1957 Allen at my church does that and it sounds horrible..lol. I'm interested in an affordable (very) practice organ so I don't have to go to the church every time to practice. However, I would like something that is enjoyable to play. If I would be beter served by waiting, and saving my money, I'm willing to do it. However, if this is a nice organ and can be had cheap, I certainly don't mind getting a good deal.

Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

-Jon


EDIT: Was also curious about this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Baldwin-Organ-in...QQcmdZViewItem
No model listed though, so I really have no idea.

[arie v]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Jon,

Stop dreaming. It may be an organ on the cheap, but it is no great organ by any stretch of the imagination. They were typical Baldwin, and a good reason why Baldwin is history as far as organs go.

These instruments used divider type generators - in other words a high frequency oscillator divided down. The problem with this setup is all your octaves are phase locked, and any filtering that is done sounds clarinety. (This is because the original wave generated is a square wave). There would also be no articulation, or animation in the tone. This system was employed by those manufacturers that wanted to produce something cheap.

Baldwin organs were also not known to be the most reliable organs on the block.

As you may know, Baldwin exited the organ business about 10 years ago, went broke about 5 years ago.
Parts and tech support (at least at the local level) will be very spotty.

AV

[MarkS]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

AV,

Thanks for saying just what needed to be said.

[Vercus]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?



Arie V,</P>


Thanks for being so helpful and informative. I think I'll pass and save my pennies for an Allen or Rodgers. I think this is one instance where it would be worthwhile waiting for something better.</P>


Thanks!</P>


Jon</P>

[MarkS]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Jon,

Great idea. If you are looking at used Allens make sure that they have an AGO pedalboard. There are a lot of them with the "Princess" pedalboard (shorter, narrower 32 pedals) advertised at low prices on Ebay. These should be given away or discarded, as one nearby church did with their chapel Allen.

[arie v]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Mark,

I absolutely agree with you on these princess pedals. Only Allen devotees could find a reason why they need to exist. Surely there is very little cost savings in making these pedals over say a standard AGO one.

If anyone is interested, I can post a list of older and or used organs which I think are worth buying. The list is not terribly long, as I judge organs not only on build quality but also on musical merit. Another item that is increasingly important is whether or not there is any kind of MIDI implementation.

AV

[radagast]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?



[quote user="arie v"]Mark,

I absolutely agree with you on these princess pedals. Only Allen devotees could find a reason why they need to exist. Surely there is very little cost savings in making these pedals over say a standard AGO one.

If anyone is interested, I can post a list of older and or used organs which I think are worth buying. The list is not terribly long, as I judge organs not only on build quality but also on musical merit. Another item that is increasingly important is whether or not there is any kind of MIDI implementation.

AV
[/quote]</P>


Arie,</P>


I, for one, would love to see your list.</P>


Bill</P>

[MarkS]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Arie,

I like to think I'm an Allen devotee and I cannot understand why Allen made those organs with the princess pedalboard. They sold thousands of them (and they all seem to appear on E-bay) but it couldn't have done their reputation any good.

When Allen first went digital they didn't make any with the dinky pedalboard. They should have stayed with that plan.

I'd like to see your list. My first pick for a pre-Midi organ would be Allen TC4 without electronic whind. (The "whind" seemed to fry the components.) The sound isn't too bad and the reliability was way up there. Too bad it requires bulky external speakers.

For earlier Midi I'd go with the Allen ADC 430/530. I've been subbing at a church with one and it hasn't had a service call since installation twelve years ago. The attack isn't as good as the later ones, but the tone is clear--and Allen didn't try to derive 30+ voices from the given tonal resources, as in their larger models. There is also plenty of high end, unlike some new sampled organs I've heard with obvious rolled-off treble. (Low sampling rates?)

Let's see the list so we can start shopping!

[Vercus]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Hey Guys,
I forgot to enable e-mail subscription on this post, and subsequently forgot about it! LOL. I couldn't agree more about the princess pedalboards.

I am the organist for a small church in Portland, PA which has a 1957 Allen C-1, and it still works! It has two tube oscillator driven generators- diapason and flute. The speaker is one large gyrophonic cab with 3 12s and 3 tweeters on the rotating section, and two 15s in the bottom. I haven't seen any of these on ebay- most seem to be just the rotating section. It's sound quality is far from stellar (think the tweeters might have blown) plus the generator is very simplistic. However, the fact that it's still in service is pretty impressive I think
So, I too would be very interested in seeing your list, as I'm hoping to purchase an organ in the next month or so.
Only problem- budget. My price cap will likely be around $1,000-1500. So, the question is, can you get a decent organ for that price? I'm sure the other guys here would be interested in seeing organs of higher price, but sadly it wouldn't do me any good..lol.

So far, my ideas have been pre-digital Allen or Rodgers organs, with as many generators as I can afford. I have no problem with external speakers, and in fact prefer them. Would you guys agree?

-Jon

[radagast]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?



[quote user="Vercus"]Hey Guys,
So, I too would be very interested in seeing your list, as I'm hoping to purchase an organ in the next month or so.
Only problem- budget. My price cap will likely be around $1,000-1500. So, the question is, can you get a decent organ for that price? I'm sure the other guys here would be interested in seeing organs of higher price, but sadly it wouldn't do me any good..lol.

So far, my ideas have been pre-digital Allen or Rodgers organs, with as many generators as I can afford. I have no problem with external speakers, and in fact prefer them. Would you guys agree?

-Jon
[/quote]</P>


Jon,</P>


Are you talking about pre-digital Allens or Rodgers because of price or because you prefer the sound? If it's price, then look on Ebay, like here:</P>


<FONT color=#ff0000>http://tinyurl.com/y749w3</FONT></P>


or an analog Allen here:</P>


<FONT color=#008000>http://tinyurl.com/y7obve</FONT></P>


Bill</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>

[MarkS]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Beware:

That analog Allen "TC3" has been advertised sporadically on ebay. A TC3 normally has an AGO console and the organ pictured clearly does not. I'm guessing that it is TC1. Anyway, I would avoid it due to the princess pedalboard; it would be nearly identical to the C1, except that it is transistor rather than vacuum tube.

The digital on ebay certainly won't sell for 1,500, so it might be a decent, very basic organ if the price is right. Someone here may privately contact you with an estimate of the typical purchase price.

[Vercus]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?



Radagast and MarkS,</P>


Thanks for the suggestions! As far as digital versus analog, you're right, it was by price. It's basically this: it seems that the digitals that are within my price range are the 70'sones, which I'm not too wild about.The church I grew up inhas an1971 632-D andit seems to have a sterile sound to it- doesn't have much character. However, I did play a large organ from the 60s that I thoroughly enjoyed. I'm sure the ADC and above organs sound much nicer, but they're not even close to my price range.</P>


Also, I really liked the sound of the analog Rodgers organs. However, it seems that even those can get pretty expensive, so we'll have to see. I imagine it's the kind of thing that's going to take a while, but in the end will be worth the wait.</P>


-Jon</P>

[radagast]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

[quote user="Vercus"]


Radagast and MarkS,</P>


Thanks for the suggestions! As far as digital versus analog, you're right, it was by price. It's basically this: it seems that the digitals that are within my price range are the 70'sones, which I'm not too wild about.The church I grew up inhas an1971 632-D andit seems to have a sterile sound to it- doesn't have much character. However, I did play a large organ from the 60s that I thoroughly enjoyed. I'm sure the ADC and above organs sound much nicer, but they're not even close to my price range.</P>


Also, I really liked the sound of the analog Rodgers organs. However, it seems that even those can get pretty expensive, so we'll have to see. I imagine it's the kind of thing that's going to take a while, but in the end will be worth the wait.</P>


-Jon</P>


[/quote]</P>


If you have the inclination to do so, adding an Alesis reverb can liven up the sound of the MOS Allen organs.</P>

[Vercus]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?

Radagast,
That's true- I have heard of people doing that. In fact, I'm using one right now to liven up the sound of my j Organ virtual organ. It's a MidiVerb 4, so it's pretty tweakable.

-Jon

[james]

Re: Baldwin 711 Organ - Anyone familiar with this one?



I find this discussion interesting. I have two Baldwin Organs, and yes, they do have a "clarinety" sound if you listen closely to the various tones. My older Baldwin a 54A which was made in the 1960's really shows this big time. A service tech once told me as organs get older the formatted tones tend to "mush" together giving them the sound from which they were originally generated. I am familiar with the Baldwin 711 as well as most any Baldwin models. I have a 48C which has much more on it than the 711, and I have noticed that the "clarinety" sound does come through on that organ as well. It was in production in the late 60's to the early 70's. The Reed stops seem to hold their "identity" quite well, but yes, I do hear the "clarinety" sound in the flutes. As one organist told me, he noticed that many of the stops sounded the same the only difference was in volume. So, go figure Baldwin did use the cheapest mode of formatting various stops. For example, the Ocatve 2' is the same as the Flautino 2', the former just being louder. The flutes and diapasons above the 8' pitch do have the same sound.</P>


I will admit my 48Corgan seems to have a much better sound to the ears since it was designed strictly for church use. I have a chime tab, and celeta tab in the right cheek block. The 54A on the other hand is a home spinet organ. It has that "buzzy" sound for the Salicional 8' on the upper manual big time, and I remember playing these organs when they were new. (We had a Baldwin dealer in town.) Also, if you listen closely to the Tibias, you will note the "brassy" sound. So many people used to refer to them as a "brassy Baldwin" or the "Brassy Baldwin with its' comb and tissue paper sound. Their vibrato is not all that pleasant, and when used with the strings and tibias, they can really sound rather cheap. I do find however the reed stops seem to sound thier intended purpose. The 54A just seems to have a "buzz" to its tone, and just never was one of my favorites. My upper manual Clarinet 8', and the lower manual Flute 8' are exactly the same soundwith the Flute being just softer. I acquired these organs for little of nothing, and have owned others that I liked much better. I am sure age has caused the tones to "mush" together as the tech siad they would with time.</P>


It is true that Baldwin organs are not always the most reliable. There are others which are much better for church use as well as practice for the serious musician. I do like the Baldwin 48C, and I could tolerate the larger Baldwin Organs for church, but never cared for their home line of organs.</P>


My advice to the person considering this one could do better by finding an organ with 32 pedals as the 711 has only 25. Also, there are many others "out there" (other brands) which might be much more satisfying tonal wise. However, for practice at home, and for my personal playing I am much happier with what is available on the Baldwin 48C than I would be a Hammond drawbar organ which I grew up on as well as played in churches for many years.There was also a Baldwin model 720T which followed the 711. It is basically the same organ with some case work designed a bit differently. There might have been some additonal speakers or an upgrade there, but just don't remember at the moment. It would be best to acquire the Baldwin Model 4 posted recently on this forum if a proper speaker(s) can be found. I had much rather have the Model 4 than the 711. This console is very much the same as a pipe organ console.</P>


There is much more "organ" variety among the tones with this Baldwin. A service tech told me that "under the hood" the Baldwin 48C was just a "Thomas" in design. I will admit there is a difference in the over all sound in this model Baldwin vs. the 54A spinet, and its larger counterparts such as the 46C, and 46H. Also, I am aware that Thomas did the same on formatting tones as their tones have that "clarinety" sound in their various stops.</P>


I have a Thomas spinet, and have tried as well as listened very carefully to each individual stops. Their flutes are very "clarinety." Such was the same situation with Hammond, it seems that no matter how you set the drawbars you still heard the Hammond soundregardless,their generator being just a clear flute tone. Baldwin flute tones are stopped flutes which do sound muffled. So, the muffled, buzzy sound all together or just the flute tones seem to give the "brassy buzzy" sound that I just can not tolerate. </P>