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Wrong sound from ADC stop---bet you've never heard this one before!!!

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  • Wrong sound from ADC stop---bet you've never heard this one before!!!

    We are finally assembling our ADC 9000 for the sanctuary now that the choir year is over. So far, I don't like the sounds as much as my 8350 at school, but perhaps when it isn't blasting me in the face.....? I have been testing stops and centering the voicing controls before we begin installation in the sanctuary, but I just discovered a doozey of a flaw in this instrument!!!!

    The 8' Flauto Mirabilis on the Solo speaks as a 2 2/3 Quint of some sort...sounds like a flute Nazard. Has anyone EVER heard of such a thing?? The waveform is on a TG-4 card with a 16' Bombarde as the other voice, and the reed sounds great.

    I can't imagine how this is even possible unless the eprom was somehow swapped sometime in the past. The cage map says it should be a TF-72.

    Any brilliant ideas out there about what could be going on?

    Also, does anybody know what the 5th recessed pot adjusts on these TG-4 cards??? It sits at the bottom of the card, set back about 1 1/2 inches behind the BTMG pots.
    Thx,
    Otis

  • #2
    Try partially removing and reseating the EPROM. There is a slight possibility that one or more bits are being read incorrectly from the waveform table, resulting in a completely incorrect sound. I observed this problem on my ADC7000 one time, when a flute sounded like a clarinet.

    I am not sure about the extra pot--it might control articulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thx...a really good suggestion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by otispit View Post
        Also, does anybody know what the 5th recessed pot adjusts on these TG-4 cards??? It sits at the bottom of the card, set back about 1 1/2 inches behind the BTMG pots.
        Otis,

        Try viewing this post and following posts: https://www.organforum.com/forums/sh...l=1#post388367.

        Regarding the sound of the ADC-9000 vs. ADC-8350, you're talking about 2 different animals. The ADC-9000 was produced at the beginning of the ADC era, and the ADC-8350 was produced at the end of the ADC era. Articulation had its own separate board, as well as several other significant improvements in sound between the two organs. Given a choice, I'd take the ADC-8350 over the extra manual of the ADC-9000 any day.

        Michael
        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

        Comment


        • #5
          Are all ADC-9000's early ADC or are there late-ADC-era 9000's that have the better stuff?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NoTalent View Post
            Are all ADC-9000's early ADC or are there late-ADC-era 9000's that have the better stuff?
            To my knowledge, no. However, since a limited number of ADC-9000s were made, I could be wrong. I suspect, though, a limited number of ADC-9000 organs weren't sold until the later 1980s, however the technology would still be the earlier technology.

            Early ADC organs were numbered in the thousands (i.e. ADC-x000), and the latest (& best IMHO) were numbered with a 300 series (i.e. ADC-7300, 8300, 8350, or 9300). The 300 indicator, as I stated before, meant the organ had a separate card (or two) to handle the articulation for the organ. The earlier organs had the articulation controls on the tone generation card.

            To be sure, you can check the components inside the organ. The date code would be stamped on almost all boards, and will consist of a letter (A-L--indicating month) and a 2-digit number (indicating year). This should be able to give you a general idea when the organ was made. Of course, if any board has been replaced, it could have a newer date, but the average of the boards would probably give you some idea.

            Michael
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

            Comment


            • #7
              Michael:
              So far, there is NO comparison. The 8350 is installed in such a manner that it is truly difficult to tell with most stops that it is not producing sounds with pipes. The spacial effects, coupled with the newer x300 architecture is very authentic sounding. The peculiar chirping attacks--not from the TG-10 board-- of the great principals is a bit gross, but when the thing gets going, its really awesome.

              Most of the sounds on this 9000 are made with TG-4 cards, which SHOULD allow somewhat more independent control than the TG-8 boards on the 8350. The 8350 has 2 full cages....the 9000 has 3 full and one half cage. I think the reeds overall, even unvoiced, are perhaps superior to the 8350, even with its State Trumpet on the choir. Principals....about the same without the nice wind, but the flutes are vastly inferior to the 8350. The only thing the 9000 does really have over the 8350 is its 24 channels vs 15. Hopefully I won't find this thing inferior to the Rodgers 925 it's replacing when all is said and done.

              Here's a ? Is there any way to adjust the width of the celestes on these ADC organs...they are far to out of tune to really sound good. I know Phelps never tuned them like this on his organs. Certainly there must be a control for this.

              Otis

              Comment


              • #8
                The wildness of the celestes (and the tuning spread in normal mode) can be tamed by replacing the FN ("frequency number") chip on the USMA board. Later models had a tab or knob marked "Romantic Tuning Off" which would disable the wide tuning, but the 9000 is not likely to have that.

                Since you have four cages, you could check all four USMA boards and see if they already have different FN chips. If so, move them around from cage to cage to see what difference they make. Then order a replacement for whatever cage has the wild celestes. You might even find that the one with wide tuning has been put into the wrong cage at some time in the past, or that it works just fine in another cage.

                You would need to talk to a knowledgeable tech about getting a replacement FN chip. Be sure that the order specifies the closer tuning, or else you'll just get another one with "romantic" tuning. Allen charges a few hundred dollars for an item like that, but they should certainly still be available. I had to order one for a MOS-2 organ just five years ago and they had no problem supplying it.
                John
                ----------
                *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by otispit View Post
                  Here's a ? Is there any way to adjust the width of the celestes on these ADC organs...they are far to out of tune to really sound good. I know Phelps never tuned them like this on his organs. Certainly there must be a control for this.
                  Otis,

                  On the ADC-8350, you can use the Romantic Tuning Off tab to narrow the Celestes. However, on the ADC-9000 I'm not sure there is such a beast.

                  My ADC-5400 came with a different tuning scheme for all manuals. When I couple the Swell & Choir celesting stops, the separation is so wide, I have to turn off Celeste Tuning on at least 1 of the manuals. When I tested it (posted elsewhere in the Forum), all manuals had a separate tuning scheme, and they all had different stretch tuning values! I suppose it could be considered more pipe-like, but I just find it annoying and have developed work-arounds for the issue.

                  Bottom line, for the X300 series, yes you can use the Romantic Tuning Off tab or turn off Celeste Tuning and leave the Romantic Tuning on. For the x000 series, other than swapping chips, there is no way to fix that.

                  John, with multi-cage organs, is there only one USMA card (with the tuning slug), or is there one per cage?

                  Michael
                  Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                  • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                  • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                  • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One per cage.
                    John
                    ----------
                    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                      One per cage.
                      John,

                      What's the likelihood one (or more) of the tuning slugs are out of tune? Even if they aren't meant to be in tune, I can see taking the division that's too high, and making it a cent or two lower than the pitch you need. That way, the ensemble will be more pipe-like, and with Celeste Tuning on, there would be more variation.

                      On second thought, would that be too much variation and create unintended consequences? Just random thoughts.

                      Michael
                      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good point, Michael. Before doing anything else, it would be a good idea for him to check the tuning of all four cages. It seems unlikely that Allen would've designed the organ with celeste ranks tuned so far apart as to be unpleasant. There is probably a tuning instruction chart for this model somewhere, that will give details as to which stops to use to tune each cage.

                        Of course, the 9000 being such an unusual instrument, with only a very small number of them having been built, it is entirely possible that they used a custom FN chip for one or more of the cages to give some kind of odd or quirky celeste tuning that the original purchaser of the instrument requested. If that is the case, the cure is to have them send a standard FN chip.

                        EDIT: while there is precious little on the Allen tech site concerning the 9000, there is an audio chart that I stumbled across. It reveals that the Swell division actually spans three of the four cages, with some of its stops in cages A, B, and D. (Cage C is just for the Solo division and nothing else.)

                        So, with the swell spread out like that, it is indeed crucial to have the cages tuned as instructed. If tuning "by the book" still produces an unacceptable spread, one might experiment with either tuning all the cages dead on, or with finding the stop that is too sharp and then tuning that cage a tiny bit flatter.

                        It would be surprising to me to discover that Allen placed the two parts of a celeste pair into different cages, but in an organ of that size, anything is possible.
                        John
                        ----------
                        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          John,

                          You caught my attention that the MOS-2 organ has a FN chip. I have a 1105 with the four computers--where is the FN chip. My celestes have always been to mild. Thanks much.

                          Michael
                          Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                          The wildness of the celestes (and the tuning spread in normal mode) can be tamed by replacing the FN ("frequency number") chip on the USMA board. Later models had a tab or knob marked "Romantic Tuning Off" which would disable the wide tuning, but the 9000 is not likely to have that.

                          Since you have four cages, you could check all four USMA boards and see if they already have different FN chips. If so, move them around from cage to cage to see what difference they make. Then order a replacement for whatever cage has the wild celestes. You might even find that the one with wide tuning has been put into the wrong cage at some time in the past, or that it works just fine in another cage.

                          You would need to talk to a knowledgeable tech about getting a replacement FN chip. Be sure that the order specifies the closer tuning, or else you'll just get another one with "romantic" tuning. Allen charges a few hundred dollars for an item like that, but they should certainly still be available. I had to order one for a MOS-2 organ just five years ago and they had no problem supplying it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                            EDIT: while there is precious little on the Allen tech site concerning the 9000, there is an audio chart that I stumbled across. It reveals that the Swell division actually spans three of the four cages, with some of its stops in cages A, B, and D. (Cage C is just for the Solo division and nothing else.)
                            Actually
                            Cage A--swell great pedal
                            Cage B--choir swell great pedal
                            Cage C--great swell pedal
                            Cage D--solo--(13 TG 2 or 4 cards for 22 stops including 2 alterables, 1 TG 2 card just for the lower pitches of the Mixture VII!)

                            The interior of this instrument is the most beautiful, elegantly clean layout you have ever seen.....a work of engineering art! 4 cages with 2 suspended plywood mixing boards. The 8350 is a slob by comparison.....is it all those side boards that make it sound better????

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Michael,

                              The MOS-2 FN chips are on the Keyboard Arrays. But these chips don't have anything to do with celestes in MOS-2 organs, at least not in the same way that they do on ADC and later organs. The broadness of the celeste is regulated by how far apart the A and B computers go when "Celeste Tuning" is drawn.

                              In order to get a proper celeste on your 1105, first make sure that the A and B computers are tuned almost dead on, but with the B computer slightly sharp. There is a paper tag inside the console to tell you how many beats apart they are to be. An easy way to get more celeste is to simply have the B computer a tad sharper than the specs call for. That will give you more natural chorus, which is probably a good thing, and will give you a broader celeste when drawn.

                              After that, you can change the depth of the detuning that occurs by changing some jumpers on the B computer's KBA. I believe there are four choices from a very mild "chorus" detuning all the way to a very wild celeste. If you don't have the service manual that shows how these detuning levels are selected, let me know and I'll make a copy of that page for you.

                              On the 1105 that we service locally, we did tinker with the celeste tunings and also with the tremulant depth (which is also adjustable by moving some jumpers on the KBA, a big change from MOS1 organs, on which there was no way to adjust trem depth).
                              John
                              ----------
                              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                              Comment

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