ADC 5000 - New and Exciting Issues!

[IndianaBill]

Greetings!

After my repaired D40 amplifier was installed, I was pretty excited to actually hear the entire instrument at one time. And once everything is voiced, I hope it will not be so bright and brassy. And I have ordered an FG2 board from a trusted source to replace my troublesome board.

So now when I play, all of a sudden, the Great will just drop out... no sound from any key. Sometimes the Pedal joins it. The Swell continues to work on the Swell keyboard, but not as coupled to the Great. Occasionally the Pedal only will drop out. This lasts anywhere from 3 seconds to about 10 seconds, and then it all starts playing again. Then it all might stop again for a short amount of time. And then it comes back again. It does not seem to matter if the organ newly powered up or if it has been playing for awhile.

Any insight you can offer will be appreciated. Thanks!

[myorgan]

Bill,

Could you clarify--is the D40 serving the Great or Pedal (or both)? It almost sounds like an amplifier is overheating or timing out, then returning once it resets itself. Intermittents are so much fun, eh?!!!

Michael

[IndianaBill]

Hi Michael,

The D40 is serving the Great. There are two S100s serving the Pedal (and the Great Trompete and Mixtur).

I had wondered about overheating. It certainly could be that. It's just weird that happens together or sometimes separately. I have not smelled anything burning, but that does not mean it's not of course! And oh yes, I agree. Intermittent issues are fun!

Thanks,
Bill

[jbird604]

When this occurs, are you saying that the swell stops continue to play on the swell manual, but if the swell is coupled to the great, you cannot play the swell stops from the great?

If so, then the problem is NOT in the amps or the audio at all, but is an issue of the great and pedal keying signals not getting through the USCM board and out to the cage.

Check all the connections on the USCM board. Remove the big long plugs with rows of wire-wrapped pins, as these are connected to the keys. Blow out with compressed air, then snugly re-attach. Check any socketed chips or other components on the USCM.

You might take a look at the group of white wires that connect to the great keys. There may be some loose solder joints where they connect to the long thin pc board at the back of the great keyboard.

[IndianaBill]

Greeting John and Michael, and Forum Members:

I am sorry about the delay, but I was trying to recreate the scenario. Now that it has again occurred a few times, I believe I can relay the behavior:

1. the Great and Pedal drop out, the Swell continues to play from the Great manual when coupled.
2. the Great and Pedal drop out, the Swell also drops out but can still be played from the Swell manual.
3. Everything drops out from both keyboards.
4. Everything drops out from both keyboards EXCEPT the E above Middle C (is that E3?)!

When the drop out happens, it only lasts anywhere from 3 to 15 seconds, and then everything comes back on.

Also, I got my new FG2 board for the Swell (currently the FG2 boards for the Great and Swell were switched). As it turned out, the replacement board had the chip that was original to the Swell (P38). I put the new board in, and now the old out-of-tune issues are back -- but not as severe. This amount may be intentional, as you have pointed out John. If I describe the difference between tones as a dime, the notes on the same groupings go about 2 cents flat.

Thanks as always!

[jbird604]

Truly peculiar, and not really something that points to a particular problem that I'm aware of. The USKA board in the cage is involved in parceling out the data to the various boards, and it may have some sort of weird problem going on. If you haven't already done so, be sure to clean that board's edge contacts and clean the legs and sockets of any EPROMs or socketed devices on the board.

Do you think this organ may have had a leaking battery on the USAV card sometime in the past? Use a strong flashlight to inspect the backplane board in the area of the USAV board. Pull that board out of its socket and shine the light into the socket to see if there is corrosion or leftover battery gunk. I'm a bit concerned that you have such odd problems. I certainly hope you're not headed for a disastrous situation such as what developed with our MDS-45 cage. It took several years for the battery acid to do its damage, but it did eventually eat through some traces and brought the organ to its knees. It took me weeks to figure out the trouble and get the backplane board repaired. Maybe that's not your problem, but I am concerned.

[IndianaBill]

Hi John,

I will check this out. Thanks for your help. It is a perplexing problem -- but now since I switched the FG2 boards (again!), the problem seems to be a little better. When I got the replacement FG2 board with the P38 chip (like the one that had originally been in the Swell slot of the cage, the stops that were out of tune before were out of tune again. So I decided it was better to have things slightly off tonally then more than half of the Swell stops out of tune. So I switched the boards back, everything is now in tune again, and the problem seems diminished. Of course it took me almost three days to recreate the problem for my last post.

In any case, I will check the USKA board and the USAV board. I did remove some leaky batteries, but there did not seem to be any damage around the area. When I put replacement batteries in, I mounted them on a vertical piece of the cabinet away from the boards.

Thanks again for your help.

[myorgan]

It is a perplexing problem -- but now since I switched the FG2 boards (again!), the problem seems to be a little better. When I got the replacement FG2 board with the P38 chip (like the one that had originally been in the Swell slot of the cage), the stops that were out of tune before were out of tune again.

Bill,

I don't know how comfortable you are with switching EProms between boards, but that might be a last test to try. Put the proper boards in their original slots, but switch the P38 chip ONLY with the other chip on the other board. If the issue moves with the chip, then it's an issue with the chip. If the issue stays with the board, then it's probably the board.

That said, however, Allen offered several different configurations via the chip, and depending on the chip and on which board it's located, the effect you're hearing may have been intentional, but I doubt it. Do you mean you have a PV-38 chip on your FG2 card? I have one organ with a PV-38 chip in the Swell and one in the Pedal, and both are on a FG2 card. Unfortunately, I can't readily lay hands on my cage chart for the ADC-6000, but I suspect that organ has a PV-38 chip as well--probably in the Swell. That was also the organ I had to pay for a replacement FG2 card in the Swell because the pitch had gone way off.

For what it's worth!

Michael

P.S. If you don't know how to switch the chips properly, please let us know before you try it.

[IndianaBill]

Hi Michael...

I do not know how to properly switch the chips. Yes, the PV38 chip is on my Swell board. The Great has a PV37. Of course, right now, they are reversed. When I have the chips in their proper position, the organ sounds like an electronic keyboard trying to imitate an orchestra! An out of tune orchestra at that. Think grade school. *shudder*

I know what John said about some of that being intentional, but this just seems wrong. It reminds me of a crummy Wicks organ my church used to have. That thing would not stay in tune for more than a week or two.

Thanks as always.
Bill

[myorgan]

Bill,

To switch the EProm chips, first you need to make sure you have discharged any static electricity by grounding yourself against a piece of metal. I make sure to not do the deed near any carpet. Then, you will need to use a very thin, but wider blade under each end of the chip and gently rotate the blade back and forth to raise each end of the chip from the socket, little-by-little. Make sure to note the orientation of the chip.

When you re-install the chip, be absolutely sure you line up the little legs on the chip to each of the slots. If you bend (or break) one of the legs on the way in, you're out of luck. John's recommendation of a microscopic amount of Vaseline on the legs to help lubricate it when you re-insert it is one I've used. You also need to be sure you record the orientation of the chip so you don't re-install it backwards.

While I'm not exactly sure what each of those chips does, I noticed that when I replaced a USFG-2 on one of my organs, it had a different chip in the slot. The tuning issues I was experiencing were helped greatly with the different chip, and it didn't appear to change any of the stop qualities in any way.

On my ADC-5400, I actually posted earlier about how out-of-tune the Swell was compared to the Choir, and if I used Celeste Tuning on both manuals, it became unbearable. I'm no expert, but I think in answer to the complaints of the sterile-ness of the sound of the MOS organs, Allen was trying to reproduce the out-of-tune-ness of a pipe organ and have their organs sound more realistic. In doing so, I think they probably went too far in the earlier ADC models, which they later corrected in the ADC-x300 series.

I hope this gives you the information you need.

Michael

[IndianaBill]

After playing with the ADC 7000 for awhile, I have turned my attention back to the ADC 5000. My aunt has it now, and even though the sound drops out several times during each playing session, she is still enjoying having an organ in her house.

The issue this ADC 5000 was having and still has: when playing, the sound will drop out of all voices on all but a few notes. I played it yesterday, and the entire swell and pedal went silent, and the entire great except the e, g, b, c, and d above middle c. those five keys were the only ones to produce sound on the entire instrument. This lasted about 20-25 seconds, and then everything came back on. I played for another thirty minutes without incident.

Thanks to John and Michael previously, I have checked various chips and boards. I have re-seated cables on the USCM-1 board. The local Allen tech suggested the USKA-1 and USMA-1 boards in the cage could be issues. When the tech was at the house, of course the organ functioned normally.

So I found the correcct USKA and USMA boards at Daffer. Daffer has a USCM-2 board which looks the same to me, but I'm guessing they are not interchangeable. I know if I send the USCM board to Allen, it will cost a small fortune to repair.

As this problem continues without resolution (unless I get lucky with the USKA and USMA boards), is it wise to cut my loses now? It would be nice to find a nice self contained instrument for my aunt, of course that's more money for other potential problems.

I guess there's no real question here... just musing.

[jbird604]

The USCM-2 will in fact sub for the USCM-1. The dash-2 board has more connectors, as it was intended for use with larger organs and models with additional features and controls, but it will work in place of a USCM-1. Somewhere I have a little one-page document on the procedure, but basically, you just transfer everything to the like-numbered connector on the larger board. Perhaps someone with the actual ADC manual at hand can chime in and tell you about a thing or two you have to do when making this substitution. Seems like the -2 has more data plugs, and it matters which one you use, possibly more EPROM sockets too, and you have to put your old ones into the correct spot. But your problem sounds like it could be on the USCM, as that is where the keying pulses originate and are detected.

The most common reason for notes not playing, when it affects all divisions, is broken wires between the USCM and the keyboard stack. But that wouldn't normally be an intermittent problem, but would be dead all the time.

[myorgan]

Indiana,

Two years!!! That's a long time to tolerate an issue. Glad to have you back, though.

John's advice on the USCM is right on the money. I've actually switched out a USCM board before, but it's been so many years, I can't remember.

The local Allen tech suggested the USKA-1 and USMA-1 boards in the cage could be issues. When the tech was at the house, of course the organ functioned normally.

So I found the correct USKA and USMA boards at Daffer.
[snip]
As this problem continues without resolution (unless I get lucky with the USKA and USMA boards), is it wise to cut my loses now?

Don't give up yet! IIRC, I had to replace my USKA on the ADC-5400, and between that card and one other, the organ was fixed. I have a recording of how awful it sounded before I made the switch. I haven't switched out the USMA on any of my organs. Hope that helps.

Michael