Allen Digital Computer Organ... need info...

[jamhandy]

Hi Folks,

I'm an "organ noobie," so I have no knowledge of organs, I'm a guitar player, LOL... so be kind, its my first post, LOL...

I am helping our Pastor figure out what this organ is... he bought the building several years ago (the building was built in the late 1880s...), and this organ came with the building when he bought it. All I know or can see at the moment is the front of the organ, and it will take several men to move the organ out away from the wall so that we can see the back and take better pictures of the back.

All we can see is, on the front right side, a plaque that says "Allen Digital Computer Organ"... so, from my (recent) reading about these organs is that it is at least a 1971 model or newer, as the first Allen Digital Organ was 1971. I assume this organ is newer than 1971.

What I'd like to know is where to find a model number on this organ? I could only peek behind the organ, and two of my pictures here have not so good pictures of the back of the organ. It does look like there are some kind of plaques on the back of the organ.

I'm hoping some one can help me identify this model, and if any one has info maybe they could share it about this organ?

I've been told the "pipes" on the wall behind the organ are only for looks... there are original speakers for the organ mounted above the rear of the sanctuary. The organ is on the second floor of the church, above the pulpit area, where the previous church also had their choir assembly area. If moved, it would take some kind of a crane to move the organ...

The foot pedal section of the organ was removed in order to move the organ at an unknown time. There is a picture of the foot pedals in the links below.

Not sure if I use the plain ol' links to post the pictures or what, but here goes...

https://ibb.co/bHc9Pc
https://ibb.co/nkP0VH
https://ibb.co/c65kxx
https://ibb.co/mvUdHx
https://ibb.co/dGNLVH
https://ibb.co/mE4Ojc
https://ibb.co/do3G4c
https://ibb.co/k2T5xx
https://ibb.co/ncbEqH

Thank you for any information you can add to this thread.

JH

[smp]

The knowledgeable gentlemen will tell you exactly what this is but it looks like it could be an ADC 6000, 7000, or even 8000. Tend to go for a few thousand on craigslist/ebay.

[myorgan]

Jim,

Could you please take a photo of the Choir stops, the dual pistons on the right under the Swell & Great, as well as the toe studs on the right-hand side. With that information, we should be able to narrow down which ADC organ this is. The organ is actually manufactured somewhere around 1983 or after.

Also, to reduce the questioning, just raise the top (after latching the music rack light), and on the left-side of the rail where the hinges are, there will be a plate with the model number, serial number, and a whole lot of patent numbers. Take a picture of that, and you'll have your definite answer.

Michael

P.S. There may be actual pipes behind the screen with the façade pipes. It looks like it may have replaced a pipe organ at some point.

[AllenAnalog]

A clear photo of the nameplate under the lid (the top should be hinged at the rear) will answer most questions and you can do that without moving the organ. Besides what Michael mentioned, there are a couple of other details that would be helpful to understand any optional features on this organ.

Take a closer photo of the devices that are under the keyboards on the left side with the labels visible. At first glance, they look suspiciously like a MIDI In/Out connector panel and MIDI selector switches. Also take a photo of the white tabs under the "General" label that is clear enough for the engraving to be read.

If you can get inside the pipe area, see if there are any speakers there. Some installations had double sets of main speakers at the front of the church and what are called antiphonal speakers at the rear. This organ has seven channels of power amplifiers so at a minimum there will be seven speakers.

The drawer on the right should contain some IBM punch cards for the alterable voices. Those cards slip into the slot on the right side of the keyboards.

[michaelhoddy]

That's an Allen ADC-6000. No 32' reeds in the pedal, 7 amp channels. Looks like it has the MIDI kit installed under the left stop jamb too. The ADC-style amps (rather than the earlier S-series) place the build date later in the "early ADC" cycle, probably more like late 1985 or 1986.

[jamhandy]

Wow, that is great info... thank you all for replying to my thread... just awesome... I definitely came to the right place... yay.

I'm going to meet with the Pastor on Monday to take some more pictures of the things listed above.

I'll definitely be looking for speakers. I think the organ + speakers would be more valuable. The organ was very well taken care of, so I would assume the speakers will be in good measure.

There is an obvious box on the ceiling of the sanctuary above the balcony area. It must have some of the speakers. There is also plenty of room behind the organ where there may be speakers.

All we had time for last night was a few quick snap shots to get me going on doing this research.

I think the original seat is still there, maybe in an adjoining room, and someone on this forum mentioned the owner's manual was usually kept in such a place. I'll need to put on my Super Sleuth Sherlock Holmes Hat to find out about this organ, LOL...

Its going to be a trick to get this organ down from where it is located. The original placement was on the second story, above the pulpit area, as in this picture of the way the sanctuary used to look...
https://ibb.co/jxrM5H

Now, there is a big video screen in that opening with a massive projector in the way (not sure if it is a permanent projector mount, or something that can be moved...), and I am not a physics major, but it is going to take some tricky crane and/or block and tackle work to get it through that opening. This is what the sanctuary side opening looks like now... massive video screen in the opening...
https://ibb.co/hQ25Xx

The Pastor has decided he would like to sell the organ, and he's assigned me to finding out more info about it, such as the model number, and then do a search to see what kind of value this baby has. The wood is in immaculate shape, and looking behind the organ, considering its age, it is very clean back there as well.

I'll say one thing... "its a project"... LOL...

[myorgan]

That's an Allen ADC-6000. No 32' reeds in the pedal, 7 amp channels. Looks like it has the MIDI kit installed under the left stop jamb too. The ADC-style amps (rather than the earlier S-series) place the build date later in the "early ADC" cycle, probably more like late 1985 or 1986.

Good eye, Michael. You're probably right, as the ADC-7000 series had the 32' Pedal Reed. However, with the Tutti I & II pistons, if there is a Recall, or 'G' piston, that would place it in the ADC-x3xx era, though I didn't see any indications of that. The MIDI would definitely be rudimentary. The missing 2 toe studs on my ADC-6000 make me question that as the correct model, though.

There is an obvious box on the ceiling of the sanctuary above the balcony area. It must have some of the speakers. There is also plenty of room behind the organ where there may be speakers.

All we had time for last night was a few quick snap shots to get me going on doing this research.

[snip]

Its going to be a trick to get this organ down from where it is located. The original placement was on the second story, above the pulpit area, as in this picture of the way the sanctuary used to look...

Jamhandy,

The box above the balcony probably indicates a set (or partial set) of antiphonal speakers in addition to the main speakers of the organ. The photos of the sanctuary tell me the organ must've had excellent acoustics when it was used in that space. I also noticed a "Presence Projector" speaker in your original photos, which were used to reinforce the high frequencies of the organ--not an unusual practice.

The reason I asked for more photos, is because the organ looks somewhat like my ADC-5400 or ADC-6000, and the photos of that area would definitely help understand the differences, though they're small. The ADC-5400 was (presumably) later than the ADC-6000 and had different stops in the Choir division and Great division. The 16' stop was moved manuals between the two organ models, and between them and the later ADC-6300. I've used both the ADC-6000 and ADC-5400 for the Symphony with great results.

Unfortunately, your photos may mean you get less for the organ than you may have anticipated. Because of the difficulty moving the organ, the buyer may be less interested in paying your asking price because of the work involved, as well as the potential of damage to the surrounding woodwork/screen. For values, you can check sold listings on *Bay, and see what similar organs have sold for. Keep in mind, a drawknob organ (vs. the tab version you have) would be worth slightly more to the average buyer, however, many organists prefer the tab console because it is easier to register on the fly.

Also, don't be too encouraged by the fellow in Florida who buys organs for hundreds (or gets them free), then turns around and tries to sell them for $10k+. I'm aware of an organ he recently obtained free, which showed up on *Bay for over $10k.:embarrassed: I felt bad the church was snookered out of possibly getting a donation for the instrument. I hope he did give them something, considering what he probably made on his sale (not his asking price!).

If you provide your location, we may have people on this Forum who might be interested. Also, you can post the organ in our Classifieds section at the top of the page.

Hope that helps.

Michael


P.S. If you look in my gallery, you will see photos of the ADC-6000 (https://www.organforum.com/gallery/t...lbum=36&page=5). If the tabs are the same, then that's what you have.

[davidecasteel]

It seems obvious to me that the instrument could not have been played as it currently sits, because there is not enough space for the pedals or organ bench on that level. Does the organ play? What is the intent of the owner? Is he wanting to get it functioning for use there, or wanting to sell it or just get it gone?

Beautiful job of internal wiring, I note.

David

[myorgan]

It seems obvious to me that the instrument could not have been played as it currently sits, because there is not enough space for the pedals or organ bench on that level. Does the organ play? What is the intent of the owner? Is he wanting to get it functioning for use there, or wanting to sell it or just get it gone?

On looking at the original photos again, it appears the organ may be an ADC-6300 because it has the 'R' piston on the left under the Swell manual, as well as the G1 & G2 pistons under the right of the Swell manual. That increases it's worth in my estimation! That would also explain the MIDI implementation--even though it is still rudimentary note on/off only.

David, the wiring is probably a beautiful job because it all appears to be OEM Allen wiring. I've never known an Allen Digital OEM organ to have any stray wiring at all--quite neat and professional. I guess that's one thing I appreciate about them--everything is done right and in its place. Of course, we'll quibble about certain speech characteristics or sample rates, but overall, they produced a great product that would last for years.

Also revisiting the photos, now realizing it is an ADC-6300, the General tabs appear to be (from left to right); Great/Ped Unenclosed, Romantic Tuning Off, MIDI?, ?, Reverb, and the remaining tabs are for Swell/Antiphonal, Great/Ped>Antiphonal, and Choir/Antiphonal. In looking at the amplifiers in the back of the organ, it looks like there are no Antiphonal Relays (unless they're mounted on a vertical panel next to the Swell shoes), but there are 7 channels. The 7 channels would be 2 for Swell, 2 for Choir, and 2 for Great/Ped. with the 32' channel being split through a sub-woofer crossover to a B-20 or B-40 for the 32' stops.

Now, I'm just waiting to see how close I came? The suspenders are killing me! It's a mental game I play with myself--seeing if I can guess the model by process of deduction before it is revealed.:embarrassed: I just don't normally post it publicly.

Michael

P.S. I am puzzled by the lack of 16' Rhorkrummhorn, though.
P.P.S. Is the 2^nd 32' stop a Contre Violone? Was that an option? Maybe an MDS?

[AllenAnalog]

I'm going to agree with Michael here and say it is an ADC-6300. I compared the specs for the 6000 and the 6300 and there is no Rohrkrummhorn on the 6300. The second 32' stop is a Contre Bourdon on the spec sheet and in the photo. The stop count in each division matches the 6300 spec sheet. The MIDI connector and switch panels also point to it being an ADC instrument. That may have been a factory-installed option rather than field added.



I posted this before I saw that jamhandy had added more information. I bought my ADC-5300 without being able to open the roll top to test it. (The new owners of the church could not find the key and I did not realize that I could have gone to a locksmith with the Chicago cabinet lock number to buy one.) The building had been sold with the organ and the new church was installing sound/video and lighting for a praise band - exactly the same situation with your pastor. In my case they wanted the organ out ASAP because it was in the way so I had a snap decision to make.

All of the speakers were connected as was the pedalboard so that was frustrating since I had no idea if it worked. Fortunately for me, Denver is a very dry climate and the mid-range drivers in the speaker cabinets showed absolutely no sign of rotting surrounds. That is often not the case in more humid climates.

The console was relatively easy to move but the speakers were in three locations that were quite... challenging. It cost me $650 for the movers to get it out of the church and over to my storage building and it was all done by hand, not requiring a lift. Needless to say, the church got much less for the organ than if I had been able to confirm that it worked and if the speaker move had been easier.

So if this is indeed an ADC-6300 with MIDI and at least 7 speakers (but possibly more) despite the relative value of the instrument, not being able to play it and having to get the console out of that loft will severely diminish what someone is willing to pay. If you can get the console out of the loft, set the pedalboard in place, hook up 7 speakers and find the original bench so a prospective buyer can test it you will attract more interest and get a better price.

But depending on where you live, the market for a 1988-89 instrument may still be quite limited since these organs are mostly finding new life in private homes and not other churches.

[michaelhoddy]

I may have misread the Great 8' flute as Hohlflote (early ADC) vs Rohrflote (later ADC). If so, and if it's a 6300 instead of a 6000, or 5400 (which I am not familiar with), that's actually a nice surprise!

Original poster, where is the organ located?

[jamhandy]

Just wanted to pop in to say thanks for all the posts and info so far.

As far as my location, I live north of Jacksonville, Florida in a town called Fernandina Beach.

Thank you user "myorgan" for letting me know there is a scammer in Florida some where. I know you didn't know where I was located, but I'll be on the lookout for some one who wants to low ball the price in this state some where. It is unfortunate to hear of a church taken advantage of in such a way.

The organ has obviously been partially dis-assembled, the foot pedals are by themselves in one of the pictures. You couldn't just turn it on right now and start playing it. -- The Pastor wants to sell it to help raise money for a needed new roof. Its not a matter of "just getting rid of" the organ, which tends to have a side-thought or inference of "hey, its free" connotation seems like... but it won't be free. It holds some type of value in the market, howbeit the market for big wooden beautiful things will depend on how soon it sells. But the price will most likely be mixed in with the difficulty of moving it. The difficult part will be moving it from that second story location (see pics post #6 above)... it will take some creative engineering to get the organ down and get it down without being damaged.

I'm not sure if there is even room between the center pews in the church to turn it sideways and move it out. They just put new carpeting in the church, and I saw how much work went into moving the pews. Each pew has 3-4 legs under it, and 3 screws into the floor on each leg. At least 1/2 of the pews, the pews from one side, might have to be loosened and moved to toward the outside. Once its passed the sanctuary, there are big doubles doors leading into the sanctuary, then another set of double doors on the exterior of the building. Then there are about 13 brick steps to navigate to get down to street level.

Its gonna be a chore.

I'm hoping we can enlist some manpower from the church to help in some of the move, but the new owner will need to take the ball concerning the move. Or it will be some kind of collaboration, etc... First, I'll figure the exact model, and options, so we know exactly what we have. Then we can figure a price including some kind of discussion about moving it, then we can post it for sale.

And somewhere in the mix of all this, we need to assemble it all together, plug it in and make sure it all works, LOL...

whew.....

[AllenAnalog]

I'll add one more thing to look for - the back of the console. You need to lift up the top to release the latches for the back and the model/serial number plate would have been fairly obvious so I'm guessing it was already removed and you did not take it off. I did not see it in your photos but it could just be resting elsewhere in that loft since it is fairly heavy and not terribly useful elsewhere like a bench would be.

[myorgan]

As far as my location, I live north of Jacksonville, Florida in a town called Fernandina Beach.

Thank you user "myorgan" for letting me know there is a scammer in Florida some where. I know you didn't know where I was located, but I'll be on the lookout for some one who wants to low ball the price in this state some where. It is unfortunate to hear of a church taken advantage of in such a way.

Thank you for providing your location. I wish I had known 2 years ago when I was in Jacksonville to play for my nephew's funeral when he got married. I could use my MIDI with that organ for a 32' Pedal Reed I've so long sought, but it's too late now--too far away.

Please don't misunderstand me. The fellow in Florida isn't necessarily a "scammer." He is an organ teacher at one of the community colleges there, but has a sideline of locating organs, offering to get them out of the location where they are, storing them in a warehouse (sometimes for quite a period of time), and then selling them for much higher prices because transportation is involved both ways--to FL and from FL. If you live in another corner of the US, that can amount to thousands added to the price. He then says they've all been checked by a technician (himself?), but one of the Allen techs on this Forum purchased an organ from him, and had mixed results with the quality of the purchase. Fortunately, he could remedy the issues he ran across that hadn't been disclosed/known by the seller in FL. Others on the Forum have purchased items from him with good results. I just won't purchase anything from him. He also has 2-3 selling IDs, though I have no evidence he's used them inappropriately in the bidding process.

I'll add one more thing to look for - the back of the console. You need to lift up the top to release the latches for the back and the model/serial number plate would have been fairly obvious so I'm guessing it was already removed and you did not take it off. I did not see it in your photos but it could just be resting elsewhere in that loft since it is fairly heavy and not terribly useful elsewhere like a bench would be.

AllenAnalog,

I'm confused.:-P Are you talking about the plaque being so heavy and being removed, or the bench? I didn't think that aluminum plaque would be very heavy. Of course, I've never removed one, though.;-)

Michael

[AllenAnalog]

No I was talking about the large removable wooden back panel of the console. Sorry if I did not make that clear. I did not see it in the photos he provided.

When you open up the lid, the nameplate is usually pretty obvious on the ADC models. So I presumed he had not opened it to release the back panel to take those photos, someone else did long before. Perhaps when the console was moved to mount the projection screen and the pedals and bench were separated from it?

But someone buying the organ will want it. And since he thinks the bench is located elsewhere in the church, I wanted to make sure he located the removable wooden back panel as well.