Allen Clicking Keys

[sandstone42]

I ended up getting a 3/8 nylon hex bar from McMaster Carr and cutting the pieces I needed.

[jbird604]

I agree 100%. We should buy stuff from our local hardware store whenever possible, for all the reasons we all already know about. Several times I've needed some really obscure little piece of hardware and have been delighted to discover it after sifting through the dozens of drawers at Lowe's or HD or some other well-stocked retail outlet. Glad to know about ACE hardware. We have a new one that recently opened, just a couple miles away, and it's good to know that they will be a nearby source for those little odd goodies that a guy so often needs to fix an old organ up!

[Larrytow]

Most all ACE hardware stores have a Hillman brand fastener department. The little nuts you are looking for should be in the drawers above the open bulk stock of larger nuts, bolts and screws. You will need to take an example with you to match it up, and be prepared to spend a few minutes looking for a suitable style. At least in my local stores, it does not work to walk in and ask if they have something that obscure - the clerks have no real idea of what all is in that section. They probably are there though.

You can probably order what you need from Amz at a lower price, but that is hard to order unless you know Exactly what style, thread pitch, and so on you need. There are situations when going and looking at options in person is the best plan. Because of the convenience factor, expect to pay a premium per each nut. But, a lot of times getting just the right thing is worth the premium price.

In most hardware stores the fastener aisle takes up a lot of floor space, so that is reflected in the prices. Selling nuts and bolts in small quantities is a pretty good profit center in most stores, and when you need something special it is worth it to pay the premium in my opinion.

[jbird604]

I've never needed to buy any, so I don't know a source. A good hardware store might have them, or at least a good selection of hex nuts, one of which should fit the threads. I'm pretty sure I've seen metal nuts with nylon inserts, which ought to work. Obviously, the nylon serves to grip the threads and keep the nut from simply backing off the wire, as a metal nut might tend to do over time. A metal nut ought to work just fine though as long as you either have a nylon insert or else use something to keep it from unscrewing by itself. A tiny drop of some harmless adhesive (such as silicone sealant) might be placed in the threads to keep the nut in place ???

[sandstone42]

I am having some trouble finding the nylon nuts for the Allen keyboard. I am missing three of them. I assume they are 4-40 nylon nuts but I haven't been able to find them in a 3/8" hex. Anyone know if they are available?

[you795a]

Just a little tidbit of information. It you have any key plastics that rattle, remove the key plastic from the wooden stick and either apply a piece of masking tape to the keystick or a thin line of silicone calk and put the key plastic back on the keystick right away, don't let it dry. The latter is how Allen prevents the key plastic from rattling. They used to use the masking tape method before the silicone. Now all keys have silicone on them. Don't apply too much silicone or it will be hard to remove the key plastic in the future.

[samibe]

Update: I finally had some time yesterday to replace all of the felt punchings on the Solo and Great divisions (and the few I couldn't reach on the Acc). It took me about an hour and a half. I found the use of a drill sped things up considerably. I used the drill (with a socket attachment) to remove the nylon nuts and to quickly get them close (after I replaced the punching and got the nut started by hand). I did final key level adjustments by hand. I'll need to do another round in a few weeks after the felts settle a bit. The keys are now nice and quiet.

[samibe]

Wow, I got a little swamped this week and couldn't check up on this thread. It really took off. IIRC, Schaff is a wholesaler and their membership requirements are to keep them from having to function as a retailer. Schaff has a minimum order of $20 plus shipping. The punchings do not cost that much but I needed to get other stuff as well.

I find that sometimes Amazon listings are not particularly detail-oriented and several messages to the supplier might be required to get the needed information.

[Al Offt]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and information. I found these punchings https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 to be the exact replacement for those Sam bought from Schaff.

When I ordered them, there were only 2 left, but now there are 8 left but from a different distributor.

[jbird604]

A bit of background -- "Piano balance rail punchings" are round felt "washers" just under 1/2" in diameter, typically measured at 12 mm. They are used in the piano industry to go under piano keys at the CENTER of each keystick where it sits on the balance rail pin. The "washer" serves to isolate the wooden piano key from the wooden or aluminum rail so that it moves freely and doesn't make noise.

These punchings come in a variety of thicknesses, which in the industry are called "thin" or "medium" or "thick" (and there are grades in between these -- Schaff lists about 5 or 6 different thicknesses you can order, ranging from about 1 mm to about 3 mm). They all perform the same function in the piano keyboard, but various piano builders have elected for their own reasons to use a particular thickness.

The Allen organ wooden keyboard borrows this little item from the piano industry and uses it as an up-stop bumper. It's function is to QUIETLY halt the key at the top of its stroke. This noise-damping is probably more effective if the felt is thicker rather than thinner, though of course it can't be really thick, or it won't leave room to put the nylon nut back on.

I'd recommend buying thicker ones rather than thinner ones. Unfortunately, on Amazon they don't seem to know the distinction among the various thicknesses, and all of them are being sold as if it doesn't matter. However, I noticed that one item is listed as "medium" thickness, and that should be as thick as the original punchings on an Allen. Here it is:

https://www.amazon.com/Gemm-Piano-Ba...iano+punchings

It's going to cost you about $13 with shipping, which is more than they cost from Schaff, possibly double the cost. But Schaff used to be very picky about who they would sell to, and you may not want to jump through all their hoops or even to lie about it if they ask if you are in fact a piano technician. It's been over 45 years since I first set up an account with Schaff and started ordering through them, and back then I had to get an existing tech on their order list to vouch for me so I could get my own account! Not sure it's that hard any more though.

[AllenAnalog]

With the lower humidity of winter at my shop my ADC keyboards have started clicking so I guess it's time to order some punchings.

The Schaff punchings listed above are white cloth, 0.115" thick, which is 2.92 mm. So far the punchings on Amazon that I've seen are 1mm or less in thickness and are made of felt instead of paper. Anyone find an equivalent to the Schaff punchings on Amazon?

[jbird604]

I agree that it is sometimes best to go straight to Allen. And as a guy who makes his living fixing organs, I'm in favor of encouraging people to let me fix things instead of tinkering on their own, though I realize that many organ owners are also hobbiests who like to do their own fixing, and in truth some cannot afford the services of a professional like me. I understand that fully. Good service work is not cheap.

However, for these little parts -- which are nothing proprietary or special, just piano parts that Allen repurposes as key up-stop bumpers -- there's no need to trouble Allen. If they were to sell them to end users, no doubt they would cost a lot more than they cost on Amazon.

Allen parts department primarily exists to serve technicians and dealers who need circuit boards and assemblies that are custom-made in the Allen factory. These little pieces of felt are not manufactured by Allen, and probably purchased from Schaff or some other piano parts house, and Allen will obviously have to charge you a lot more than they pay for them, not to mention the fact that they don't in general sell anything directly to organ owners. We techs are not even supposed to call in parts orders any more, but submit them online.

So, yes, consult your Allen dealer or tech if you want to order boards or major assemblies, but you're better off to do your own shopping for generic parts like this.

[myorgan]

Unless you are planning to order a ton of piano parts and rebuilding supplies and such, there's no need to do all the paperwork required to get an account with Schaff. You can order "piano balance rail punchings" on Amazon.

John,

Thank you for the information, John.

Michael

[profeluisegarcia]

I wonder why don´t you guys ask directly to Allen Costumer Support team. I have got a very efficient service from them.
Luis

[jbird604]

Michael,

Unless you are planning to order a ton of piano parts and rebuilding supplies and such, there's no need to do all the paperwork required to get an account with Schaff. You can order "piano balance rail punchings" on Amazon. Here's one package I got with a search:

https://www.amazon.com/BQLZR-Regulat...rail+punchings

There are other offers, and some of them might be the thicker felt. I didn't dig deep enough to see what the listed thicknesses are. But you can get the thickest ones available and they should be fine. Just do NOT get "front rail punchings" or any other piano rail part, as these are not what you are looking for to replace the little white bumper on the stem of each Allen key.

I saw some other items in the same search that might or might not actually be balance rail punchings, even though they were so titled. Be sure to get the white felt ones with the small (but not tiny little pin-point) hole, and it should be the right thing. The multi-color punchings are made of paper and are for key-leveling only, so be sure not to order them (though I saw a package of 5000 for just a few dollars). They will not work for this application.

John