Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Allen TC-4 Project

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
    So far, I'm pretty delighted at the way things are going with the organ. It has capacitors stacked on capacitors in long rows, and it's complicated. As I mentioned above, the first time I tried pushing a piston in, the power light dimmed, the blower wind light went out, and the organ let out a AC-sounding MOAN, like an engine straining its guts out. Then it woke up.

    Lucky I didn't have any stops selected... Now it still dims the lights, but the presets can throw a lot of magnets, too. I'm going to watch a voltmeter to see just how much the 14V does go down.
    Lamar,

    The AC-sounding MOAN isn't normal, but the dimming lights are. On the TC-3S I played for over a year, I got used to the lights dimming whenever I pressed a piston.

    I just pulled up a picture of your organ (on Page 1 of this thread) to get the "lay of the land" when it comes to pistons. To make it quite simple, you have, in effect 4 General pistons. Whatever is set on the setterboards underneath each side of the console is what registrations will occur when you press a General Piston 1, 2, 3, or 4 on the left. If I recall correctly, the 1-4 under the Swell on the left are the General Pistons.

    The two sets of pistons on the right, under the Swell, and the one on the left under the Great are the divisional pistons. Basically, they simply change the Swell, Great, and Pedal settings according to how the General piston is set for that number. Press all the Divisional 4 pistons, and they should be the same as the General 4 piston, etc.

    The only thing I'm fuzzy on is whether or not any of the Divisional pistons will affect the stop tabs in the General section above the Swell. I seem to recall they are tied to the Great Divisionals, but could be wrong.

    I hope that helps un-fuzz your brain on the topic. Just remember--you have only 4 settings available (or mix and match the corresponding divisionals).

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

    Comment


    • Hi, Larry - Well, seeing how stinky Allen is being with parts and manuals, they would likely object to anyone scanning and distributing their older material out of protecting their copyright.

      Hi, Michael - The "moan" was a dramatization (but not much of one). It was just a bunch of old, unused relays being requested to operate at once and having to overcome the resistance of combined age and idleness. The deep-seated hum was from the power supply transformer, and it only happened that first time. Now I can toss all sorts of stops at it and press Cancel, and it just dims a little.

      Seems to me that it should have more than 4 settings.

      Say I press #1 on the left - it's set for Diapason in the pedals and "picks up" the #1 on the right, which is Flutes 8 in the Swell.
      Then I press #2 on the right - it's set to Flutes 8 and 4, so I have Diap. on the pedals and Flutes 8, 4 on the Swell.
      I press #1 on the left, and the Flutes 4 drops off, and it goes back to Diap. on the pedals and Flutes 8 on the Swell.

      That's what I think I observed. Now all I need to do is to add the other two.

      It makes sense to arrange them from soft to loud.

      Actually, I already have some favorites set for each manual.

      ****

      Looking at pictures of other TC-4 installations, it looks like the slide switches for the gyros was more common that the stop tab switches. So an organ could have three of them. Mine has the connections to add one, but that's it, and the celeste idle is the default.

      I also have those unused terminals down there that go to stop tabs for the antiphonals, which were apparently relay-controlled. Half of them will have 14V on them. With a little relay, I could power something like a few Nanoverbs.

      I got the new power cord in. It's rated for 1500 watts. I'll put it in after I get finished with the pedalboard, and then I'll put the cover back over the AC end of the terminal strip.

      This will keep me busy for a while.

      And then I would like to polish it up some. It has a dingy coating of lots of wax. I tried cleaning part of the top and got through it, but the top underneath is well marked up with tiny scratches. Has anyone tried Fornby's wax remover on this type of finish?
      Last edited by Silken Path; 08-07-2018, 01:18 PM.
      -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
      -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
      -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
        Seems to me that it should have more than 4 settings.
        It should, but doesn't. Large combination actions were not much of a forte in Allen or Rodgers' analog days.

        Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
        Say I press #1 on the left - it's set for Diapason in the pedals and "picks up" the #1 on the right, which is Flutes 8 in the Swell.
        Then I press #2 on the right - it's set to Flutes 8 and 4, so I have Diap. on the pedals and Flutes 8, 4 on the Swell.
        I press #1 on the left, and the Flutes 4 drops off, and it goes back to Diap. on the pedals and Flutes 8 on the Swell.
        Sounds right to me.

        In general, I found it easiest to set #4 for full organ, #3 for a full-ish organ with some sort of solo in the Swell (i.e. Reed Chorus), #2 for a smaller Swell solo accompanied by the Great (i.e. scaled down Cornet of sorts--8', 2-2/3', 2', 1-1/3'), and #1 with soft Strings/Celeste in the Swell and/or Great. I found Allen generally had the Swell much stronger than the Great (like Theatre organ where the Solo is stronger than the Accompaniment manuals), and most of the nicer sounds were in the Swell (i.e. Celestes and Strings). The Great was simply straightforward Diapason Chorus, Flute Chorus, and a couple of Reeds (no mutations or mixtures available on the Great).

        Remember, it is generally always easier to add stops than to remove them on-the-fly with a stop tab console. For me, precision in removing specific stops is always a gamble. Adding one stop can totally change a registration (i.e. the scaled-down Cornet above). Remove the mutations, and you have a nice 8', 2' combination to use. Adding the 16' is easy because it's always at the end.

        Please post some short recordings as soon as you have them available. It's been nice following your thread and seeing the progress.

        Michael
        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
        • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

        Comment


        • Hey, Michael - don't get the wrong impression - remember that I'm one lousy organist. A forum member here who's heard me play actually said that it (a hymn) was not bad for a person with no discernible sense of rhythm or timing (but he didn't hear any wrong notes).

          Still thunder-booming around here. I just ordered a Tripp Lite Isobar 6 power strip for the Allen. UPS loves me. I'm still waiting for my tape for the pedal wiring loom, too. UPS has basically brought me everything I need for this organ EXCEPT the organ.

          Hehe - I'm still working on understanding this preset arrangement, but it's not terrible. Thank you Larry and Michael. I'm going to play with it tonight (once the storms collapse or pass over) until I either understand it or have more questions.

          I was looking again at the TC-4 at U.N. Church Center Chapel. It was one heck of a custom. Here's a direct link, but the picture is rotated.

          http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/img...terUNAllen.jpg
          -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
          -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
            Hi, Larry - Well, seeing how stinky Allen is being with parts and manuals, they would likely object to anyone scanning and distributing their older material out of protecting their copyright.
            You may have a point there. But, Allen says they support Every instrument they have ever made. So, they should have done it before the last manual left their hands. If they did not, and / or will not, then "someone" should. I won't tell !

            As much of an Allen fan that I am, some of their recent policies regarding these older organs are starting to make me wonder what they are thinking. Another example is no more Alterable cards for MOS organs. Over the years I have bought a mess of those cards from them to give to churches who had the organ there, but no cards. I admit it was sorta self serving - so I could use the Alterables when I play there, but I needed them, and could count on Allen having them for me.

            Michael and I both explained the Collective Piston system accurately, just a bit different phrasing. Read it all slowly again, and it will make sense to you soon enough.
            Regards, Larry

            At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

            Comment


            • Gentlemen, I think I understand most of it. Thank you both - both you were 100% right.

              Here's what I did to visualize it. I set all four sets to 1, 2, 3, 4, ie first stop, second stop, third stop, fourth stop. For all three areas, 1 sets the 1 first stop, 2 sets the first and second, 3 sets the first, second, and third, 4 sets all four.

              And here are some trials and observations.

              *The one on top left selects everything - press #3, and you get #3 on the pedals, #3 on the Swell, #3 on the Great.
              -- Like it's inheriting the settings from all the other #3s.
              *The one on top right selects just the Great - press #4 and you get 4 stops on the Great without changing anything else.
              -- It's not inheriting anything.
              *The one on bottom left selects just the pedal - press 3 and you get 3 stops on the pedals without changing anything else.
              -- Ditto.
              *The one on bottom right selects just the Swell - press 2 and you get 2 stops on the Swell without changing anything else.
              -- Ditto.

              That seems like the broad picture. I noticed that one of them kept a Gens tab. I'll have to go back to find out which one, but it looks like things like "Gyro Off" can be included.

              So this is more than four possibilities.

              For example you could press the first button. Say that's #1 and it selects everything and sets pedals, Great, Swell. That's 4 possibilities for the four buttons.

              *Press 2 on the Swell, and you add stops without changing the Great and Pedals. Same for 3 and 4 - that's more possibilities.
              *You can change three more by pressing out on the pedals pistons.
              *And three more from the Great...

              It beats me WHY they designed this like this, but I think I'll make up a cheat sheet.
              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
              -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

              Comment


              • You pretty much have the plan now. I think you mixed up the manual names in your write up though. The Divisional pistons are always below the manual they belong to. So you can hook a thumb down to use them while playing. Generals are usually always on the left end, but may be split up between manuals, if there are a lot of them.

                Inheriting = Collecting, hence the name Collective Generals.
                Regards, Larry

                At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                Comment


                • Collective Generals. Implies that there are more of them somewhere...

                  I've seen a picture of a pipe organ that had two or three small wooden switches that looked sort of like tooth picks over each stop tab. Selecting the top one, for example, over a stop selected it for the first button below. That's much more limited than this system.

                  "Collective Generals"

                  I think somebody slightly evil dreamed this system up. That, or it was something that was designed on a blackboard or a wiring loom table by a bunch of engineers. The important thing is that it allows for a bunch of possibilities from four just four sets of switches.

                  Well, the power went out just as I was about to send that long last message. Fortunately I had a wireless card (free from Sprint for some promotion) already sitting in the window and the PC ran on battery backup long enough to send it - and then the power came back on.

                  Think I'll go play something.
                  -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                  -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                  -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Larrytow View Post
                    You pretty much have the plan now. I think you mixed up the manual names in your write up though. The Divisional pistons are always below the manual they belong to. So you can hook a thumb down to use them while playing. Generals are usually always on the left end, but may be split up between manuals, if there are a lot of them.
                    Larry's right on. I just couldn't remember which were Generals on the left, and which belonged to a Divisional manual.

                    Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                    So this is more than four possibilities.

                    For example you could press the first button. Say that's #1 and it selects everything and sets pedals, Great, Swell. That's 4 possibilities for the four buttons.
                    You say potato, I say patato, let's call the whole thing off! What we're actually talking about are related to the mathematical concepts of combinations vs. permutations.

                    Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                    It beats me WHY they designed this like this, but I think I'll make up a cheat sheet.
                    Sounds like a good idea. I've often made up cheat sheets for my registrations as well. I use Excel to set them up. Of course, an organ like that may have 1 or 2 issues with the setterboard electronics. I know our organ I played growing up had limited issues with the setterboard.

                    Of course, I can only conjecture, but I think the reason the combination action was set up like this had to do more with the capabilities of electronics at that time vs. innovation. I still remember the first Saville I played, and the Divisional pistons were DIFFERENT than the Generals. That was a new learning experience for me.

                    Michael
                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                    Comment


                    • I suspect that if we were to draw a diagram of this system, we'd have three ladders on their sides with a movable wiper that can slide back and forth on top of the bottom ladder and contact one of three (or four) other rungs in the next ladder, which has a movable wiper...

                      No, I'm just kidding.

                      One of the organs I had in Hauptwerk is a Rodgers 945. I downloaded the manual from Rodgers and was impressed with how all the sample registrations just built on the previous one by adding one or two or more stops and in some cases, getting dramatically new sounds from the organ. Of course, I copied twenty of them into stops in Hauptwerk. I've since stopped playing it because my Rodgers classic library hiding in the W5000 actually sounds better and because I got Hauptwerk Advanced and some bigger, more resonant organs.

                      Boy, I'm glad I got this Allen. After watching it for a week in eBay, mine was the only bid. Seemed like a whole lot of organ for the money. (And I'm thankful to the forum member that gave me the '59 - parts of it WILL live on in the other organ.)

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Moving Day.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	257.1 KB
ID:	606186
                      -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                      -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                      -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                        Boy, I'm glad I got this Allen. After watching it for a week in eBay, mine was the only bid. Seemed like a whole lot of organ for the money. (And I'm thankful to the forum member that gave me the '59 - parts of it WILL live on in the other organ.)
                        Lamar,

                        From the picture, it looks like you drove uphill all the way home!

                        Seriously, thank you for being so conscientious about restoring the organ. Maybe there's hope yet!

                        Michael
                        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                        • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                        Comment


                        • That was actually the pitch of his driveway. I looked at the hill and the curve involved and commented that I'm not the world's greatest backer, and the wife said "My husband is." I said "The key's in it." A minute later he came down the hill, backing it up to the door in the first attempt.

                          The music rack was about an inch under the open door of the trailer.

                          The sticky-on-one-side friction tape should come today. Then it's back to the pedals. (I'll test them before I wrap it up.)
                          -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                          -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                          Comment


                          • Here is a tip about backing trailers well. I have taught many people to do it over the years ( my employees mainly, as being Really Good at it is essential in the towing biz ), using this method.

                            If at all possible, start with the truck and towed vehicle in a pretty straight line. Not always possible in the real world of course, but for practicing in the beginning it is better. Then take your hand from the top of the steering wheel and put it on the bottom at the 6 o clock position. Then start backing slowly and watch the rear of the towed vehicle. As you go, turn the Bottom of the steering wheel whatever direction you need the rear of the towed vehicle to go. Small steering inputs are the key here - too vigorous will get magnified by the length of the towed vehicle and get it off your intended course pretty quickly. It seems like a counter intuitive method, but it really works. Slow and easy is the main thing to keep in mind here.

                            This is a thing to practice before you need to do it if at all possible.

                            I always made sure my guys could back stuff up Very Competently, as it was MY name on the door of the trucks !
                            Regards, Larry

                            At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                            Comment


                            • Thanks Larry. I have a 28-foot 1979 Airstream, too. It's easier to back than a short trailer because I can see it, especially when turning it to my left. But thanks for the tip on the bottom of the steering wheel. That makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. (I really do need to get one of these U-hauls early one day and go find an empty parking lot to practice.) This guy was an electrical contractor and he was used to short trailers.
                              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                              -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Larrytow View Post
                                Here is a tip about backing trailers well. I have taught many people to do it over the years ( my employees mainly, as being Really Good at it is essential in the towing biz ), using this method.
                                [snip]
                                I always made sure my guys could back stuff up Very Competently, as it was MY name on the door of the trucks !
                                Off topic, but I'll bite. One other caveat--ALWAYS KNOW WHERE THE FRONT OF YOUR VEHICLE IS WHEN BACKING!!! I've been on the wrong end of that equation before--not fun!

                                When I posted, I was actually referring to the way the trailer was loaded--it appeared to have most of the load on the front tongue, but I'm sure things had been removed first. My van would be reaching for the stars if it was hooked up to that!

                                Michael
                                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                                • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X