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  • Thank you, sir Toodles. I'm just getting started on the finishing end. I appreciate the warnings and information.

    I think the Allen has been waxed religiously, as in the church cleaning crew probably polished it every month or so. None of the guys I got it from (sons who bought it for their mom to play, but she was diagnosed with dementia at about the same time, so it sat uninstalled in the oldest son's basement), knew/remembered/said they remembered which church it came from, which I thought was a little odd.

    Although the RMW needs to be in the "More" position to move the meter up into range, leaving it on "Less" or "Medium" still provides vib--- tra-tra-tremolo! I can see the meter barely bumping and the flash in the blower light is softer. Thus it may not be a strong effect, but it works without having to spin the gyro and it works throughout all the stops. It's definitely worth having.

    I'll continue to tweak the adjustments for tremolo. I may also take the tremolo section off the shelf and see what's going on inside it. I'm curious if the poly sleeve is still over the neon lamp that helps contribute noise. (We all need noise.)

    Then the next project is to see what's up with the balky magnets.
    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
    -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

    Comment


    • I have a copy of a field service bulletin from 1985 with info on replacing the neon lamp for noise with a zener diode--Allen quit providing the neon lamp after they found the zener diode to be more effective and reliable than the other noise sources.

      1N4744 is the diode part number. Another bulletin mentions that the zener doesn't work with some of the late organs with solid state keying (the TC4 does not qualify) but any NE-1 neon lamp can replace any of the other neon lamps they used from time to time. The NE-2 is a very low cost neon lamp available generally, and here's one source: https://www.jameco.com/z/NE-2-Wire-T...SABEgJOjPD_BwE

      By the way, here's a good book that takes all the mystery out of wood finishes: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding...finishes&psc=1

      Comment


      • Thank you, brother Toodles. I'll add that to my info file. Wow, that IS low cost.

        I ordered the wood finishing book. Looks useful. (I can test the wax removal by setting the organ's back cover up on saw horses outside.)

        About the tremolo - I found a combination that is pretty good and it has started working better. I've been gradually bumping the level adjustment up so that it's more evident at lower volumes. This has been the most common refrain on this old organ - use something for a while and it starts to work better.

        Except for me! Sitting way up there on that bench and peering down to the pedals and up at the music rack, I'm sore in places I didn't even know I had. This, too, shall pass.
        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
        -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • Well, Deoxit D5 was not the cure for the two reluctant stops that won't "clear." They both go down just fine as presets, so I can live with until I can stick my nose back in there. One of them is the Diapason on the Great, which isn't too swell. Both of them do that "last mile" thing where if you get a stop high enough, it will pull up the rest of the way by itself.

          As described in the service manual, the organ does have sufficient magnet power (14VDC) to pull ALL the stops up or put them all down.
          -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
          -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
            Well, Deoxit D5 was not the cure for the two reluctant stops that won't "clear." They both go down just fine as presets, so I can live with until I can stick my nose back in there. One of them is the Diapason on the Great, which isn't too swell. Both of them do that "last mile" thing where if you get a stop high enough, it will pull up the rest of the way by itself.
            John & others,

            Could this be the same issue I've run into on the ADC Allens I have? If it is, it is a moisture issue. See if you can find the pin where the stop tab pivots and put a drop of WD-40 on it. I have solved 2 combination issues that way on my Allen ADC organs.

            Michael
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

            Comment


            • Thanks - I'll give that a try next. Makes sense, too, as contact cleaner actually removes lubrication. I'll go try it now.

              I took the cover off the top of the lower manual - where the preset buttons are - and found half an empty pecan shell in there. I doubt that Allen assemblers left it there. I'm going to try to fish it out with a coat hanger.

              ***

              Used stainless steel .032 safety wire (used to secure bolts and things from vibration/turning) and got it on the first try. This accounts for the "crunchy" feel I've had with some of the keys. Tomorrow I'll fix up a small tube for the vacuum and suck out the sawdust.

              ***

              Well, couldn't wait. Taped a hose on the old shrieking Eureka that won't die and got the very light brown powder out. I think it may have been Rodent Interruptus and he/she left behind the goods.

              ***

              And a little more information. I just noticed that the stops that won't clear (come up when Clear is pressed) will still move to off if some other preset does not need the stop. So that's the troubleshooting information that might help. I'll see if I can find out what the clear button and the presets do differently.
              Last edited by Silken Path; 08-11-2018, 08:20 PM.
              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
              -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

              Comment


              • In the other thread where they are talking about subwoofers, they're talking about a Contra Bourdon - this Allen has a Diapason 16 and a Contra Diapason 32. Neither contra are listed separately at the Ency. of Organ Stops, so I'm curious - in what sense is the diapason (or bourdon) contra to a diapason or bourdon? Contra means opposed to, right, as in contrary?

                I'm afraid to push these elderly bass speakers, but if I go down the pedals on the Contra Diapason, the last half octave sounds all the same, except I hear the vibration sloooowwww.
                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                  In the other thread where they are talking about subwoofers, they're talking about a Contra Bourdon - this Allen has a Diapason 16 and a Contra Diapason 32. Neither contra are listed separately at the Ency. of Organ Stops, so I'm curious - in what sense is the diapason (or bourdon) contra to a diapason or bourdon? Contra means opposed to, right, as in contrary?
                  Lamar,

                  Don't think of the prefix "contra" (or "contre") from a literary perspective. Think of it from a musical perspective. There's a Bassoon, and then there's a Contra Bassoon, meaning it plays 1 octave lower. Then there's the Bass (as in String Bass), and Contra Bass. That's all "Contra" means, and it's generally understood in organ nomenclature.

                  Regarding the tone--well, that's a bit different. You cannot "hear" the tones at those frequencies because it is nearing the lower end of the range of human hearing. Also discussed on this Forum many times is the fact that the lowest C with a 32' Pedal stop would take over 70 feet for the tone to create one full cycle. That means, the space in which the organ resides needs to be 70+ feet for that particular tone to develop fully.

                  Generally, Allens sound great in the 32' range down to the lowest F on the pedalboard. Then, the sound tends to drop off and become less and less audible. I can, however, confirm that if you have that same organ in a larger space (i.e. our Symphony auditorium), the people in the balcony definitely DO feel the vibrations from those frequencies.

                  Hope that helps.

                  Michael

                  P.S. This rule generally doesn't apply to 32' Pedal Reeds because most of their tone is in the partials rather than the fundamental tone. Therefore, they can be fairly effective throughout the entire pedal range.
                  Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                  • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                  • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                  • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                  Comment


                  • All right - that makes great sense and dashes the theories I was entertaining. I'll go play with that now - in fact, it could be a good way to practice with my other foot - maybe try mirroring them if I'm that coordinated.

                    My Rodgers has a Bourdon 32 and a Reed 32. I'll see if my (crazy special edition "hunter green" that looks black until one takes it out in direct sunlight) AudioTechnica can go that low. (That hunter green pigment in the plastic seems to make them fragile, too. I've already had mine in for warranty work for a broken ear cup bracket from just taking them off and getting tangled in my hair.)

                    THANK YOU
                    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                    -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                    Comment


                    • Your TC-4 may be different than mine was, because it is newer, but I don't think on this stop it will be much different. On all the TC-4s I have seen, the 32' Contra Diapason is not a genuine 32' stop. It actually it is a Resultant 32' .

                      What that means is that there is no pitch generator for the 32' octave. When you turn the stop on, it is keying the 16' pitch of the note And the 10&2/3rds' pitch of that stop together. The 10&2/3rds' is usually keyed at a lower volume than the 16' pitch. That combination can ( in some situations ) give some of the impression of a 32' pitch, but in most organs it is not very effective. For any 32' stop to be really effective down to CCCC, it has to be in a large building / room, due to the length of the waves.

                      Your TC-4 may actually have a tab for the 10&2/3rds stop in the Pedal division; mine did. I think it actually uses the 16' Flute octave, not the Diapason.

                      As Michael has said above, 32' reeds are more effective in most instances where the room is not big enough for the 32' flue stop waves to fully develop.

                      At any rate, don't expect your TC-4 32' to shake the foundation of your house.
                      Regards, Larry

                      At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                      Comment


                      • Thanks, Larry. I'll be highly offended if that's not a REAL 32. Well, no I won't, but if I can find out which generator drawer is involved, I can read the labels or do something crazy like count them and find out.

                        I was already plotting and planning to get a neighbor involved tomorrow. Get him to stand on his porch with his cell phone, and I'll ask him, "Can you hear me now?"

                        I can't play with it tonight because there's only one thin garage door between it and the world and Michael has me all worried about folks 140 feet away hearing my organ if I use that stop.

                        The '59 actually spells out "Resultant 32." It has a Quint and a Twelfth where the '67 has a Mixture and a Gedect (which I rather like) in the pedals. The '59 also has a Fife and Larigot where the '67 has all those stops used for the antiphonals and has no Quint at all on a stop.
                        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                        -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                        Comment


                        • Contra (Kontra, or Contre), Double, Profunda, Sub, and Bass all refer to an octave lower than unison pitch. Manual unison pitch is generally considered to be 8 ft.; pedal unison pitch is 16 ft.

                          In terms of "against", Contra would be as "against the unison pitch of the diapason" in terms of unison being the reference pitch not "against the diapason voice".

                          Comment


                          • -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                            -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                            Comment


                            • Organ nomenclature is well defined, but not necessarily well followed. The Dictionary of Pipe Organ Stops is a good introduction, but has a few odd descriptions on some of the stops.

                              Note that tremolo/vibrato is usually set in the range of 4 to 7 beats per second. The fast speed on a Leslie is about 7 (maybe 7.2 if I remember right) revolutions per second. To my ears, a slower trem just doesn't sound right.

                              Comment


                              • I just did some reading in the Rodgers manual - it says the control can set the tremolo for "some classic organ voices" or similar. It looks like the default really is 78 something. I shall try speeding it up on the Allen.

                                Willi Apel's musical dictionary is a hoot. 900+ pages and you wouldn't want to drop it on your foot. It's right on the edge of what one can consume for general reading. I suspect it's designed to support course work.
                                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                                -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                                Comment

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