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  • Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
    Technically, isn't a "Cornet" a combination of 8, 4, 2 2/3, 2, and 1 3/5?
    David,

    It depends on how many ranks the Cornet has and the nationality of origin. What you describe above is the quintessential French Cornet of V ranks, but there were others (http://www.organstops.org/c/Cornet.html).

    Lamar, you can also get an acceptable Wood Clarinet by removing the 4' from the pitches David lists above. Just leave plain or add tremolo. I found that stop extremely useful on the TC-3S I began playing at church when I was a teenager.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

    Comment


    • Originally posted by myorgan View Post
      David,

      It depends on how many ranks the Cornet has and the nationality of origin. What you describe above is the quintessential French Cornet of V ranks, but there were others (http://www.organstops.org/c/Cornet.html).

      Lamar, you can also get an acceptable Wood Clarinet by removing the 4' from the pitches David lists above. Just leave plain or add tremolo. I found that stop extremely useful on the TC-3S I began playing at church when I was a teenager.

      Michael

      Hi Michael:

      It's not my intent to argue at all, merely to add a slightly different viewpoint: I was taught that the classic mutation clarinet is 8', 2 2/3', and 1 3/5'. No 2' rank used. To me, that is still the most authentic sounding mutation clarinet. Adding the 2' rank does give it a nice "clarinet/oboe" combination sound, though.

      Tony
      Last edited by Melos Antropon; 10-27-2018, 06:12 PM.
      Home: Johannus Opus 370

      Comment


      • Thanks, guys. I plan to watch the videos again after I've absorbed a bit more, but the '67 has no 1' stops at all. (The '59 - parts cow - has Larigot 1-1/3 and Fife 1.) That's why I was wondering if the circuits were still there for them in the 67, which looks like it has a lot more oscillators (and not just the celeste).
        -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
        -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112, L-102
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • Lamar,

          You can find out by looking at the key contacts. If a 1' slide is present, it can be made to play. But if it isn't there you can't add it. The newer organ probably has oscillators going to the top of a 2' stop, as nearly all Allen analogs did, of every vintage. So the 1' stop on the old one would've stopped at the next to last octave, there being no oscillators for it in the top octave. That's the nature of a unit organ -- you can have as many different pitches as you want drawn from a single rank. But you must have the "hardware" in place to play the oscillators (or pipes or whatever) at the pitch you want.

          Could be that the older organ simply had more slides in the contact rail, or maybe some of the pitches used by your newer one were not used on that one for some reason.
          John
          ----------
          *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment


          • Even pipe organs do not have pipes for the top octave of 1 ft stops, as the pipe become impossibly small to tune and voice. Rarely, they complete the 1-3/5 ft. pitch.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Melos Antropon View Post
              It's not my intent to argue at all, merely to add a slightly different viewpoint: I was taught that the classic mutation clarinet is 8', 2 2/3', and 1 3/5'. No 2' rank used. To me, that is still the most authentic sounding mutation clarinet. Adding the 2' rank does give it a nice "clarinet/oboe" combination sound, though.
              Tony,

              I was never taught, I just discovered the setting on the organ on which I learned. You are probably right about the combination variations. I am working off 40 year-old-memories.

              Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
              You can find out by looking at the key contacts. If a 1' slide is present, it can be made to play. But if it isn't there you can't add it. The newer organ probably has oscillators going to the top of a 2' stop, as nearly all Allen analogs did, of every vintage. So the 1' stop on the old one would've stopped at the next to last octave, there being no oscillators for it in the top octave.
              I can verify what John is posting. It always seemed odd to me on the TC-3S that the 1' stopped one octave before the end of the keyboard, but the 16' didn't stop until the keyboard ended. It just seemed odd to me, but I didn't know much about organs then.

              Michael
              Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
              • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
              • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
              • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

              Comment


              • Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                Lamar, you can also get an acceptable Wood Clarinet by removing the 4' from the pitches David lists above. Just leave plain or add tremolo. I found that stop extremely useful on the TC-3S I began playing at church when I was a teenager.

                Michael
                Alas, there goes that lack of a 1 or 1-3/5 on this organ. It *does* have a Clarinet 8 that is a surprisingly nice sound all by itself. This 51-year-old organ still has a nice feeling keyboard and a good uniform feeling across the pedals.

                And Tony mentioned the Oboe - that's an option with "Reeds become oboe."

                So Allen thought this organ needed both the oboe and clarinet stops. (It also has a clarion.)

                And thanks, John. I'll look to see if the organs have the same number of sliders the next time I have it pulled out.
                -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112, L-102
                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                Comment


                • JI would be surprised if your Clarinet 8 stop does not draw flutes at 8, 2-2/3, and 1-3/5 even though the 1-3/5 pitch doesn't have a separate stop tab. This approach is often called "synthesis" or "synthetic stops".

                  To my knowlege, Allen didn't actually build an independent clarinet stop in organs of this size. You can verify that it is synthetic by engaging the Clarinet 8 and then adding the 8 ft and 2-2-/3 ft pitches to see if they add anything. Also, you could (for a single note, to verify) bring on the 8 ft. flute, and play middle C, the G an octave and a half above, and then the E above that--do this on the manual without the Clarinet, and you can compare it to the Clarinet.

                  You could convert the clarinet to a Tierce 1-3/5 by inhibiting its engaging the 8 and 2-2/3 pitches. The additional pitches are likely added by multiple contacts on the stop tab mechanism. A short piece of spaghetti (the electrical insulation type, not the pasta ) over the 8 and 2-2/3 contact wires can do this temporarily.

                  Not sure if you are saying this organ has the "Reed/Trumpet becomes Oboe" or just an Oboe stop (and I'm not going to read through all 262 posts in this thread to find out!). But if it has the oboe stop, it's probably by synthesis. If it lacks it, the "Trumpet becomes Softer" or "Reeds Softer" is probably the same effect or very similar.

                  Comment


                  • I am finding the recent additions to this thread interesting reading. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

                    You can get a nice synthetic oboe using a 4' flute, 2 2/3' and 1 3/5' and playing an octave lower. (If you have an intra manual 16' coupler and unison off you don't need to play an octave lower.) I have sometimes used this on pipe organs for an interesting solo combination.
                    Bill

                    My home organ: Content M5800 as a midi controller for Hauptwerk

                    Comment


                    • On many of the unit organs I play ( pipe or electronic ) I like to use the combination that Bill just mentioned. I tend to use the stopped wood flute 8' instead of the 4' though. That depends some on the particular ranks voicing of course. On some organs I will not use either the 1&3/5' or the 2&2/3' depending on the effect. It is handier to use the sub and unison off, if the organ has it, but playing the octave lower works just fine too. You are usually doing single note melodies with that combination anyhow.

                      That is one of those registrations I like to use when playing an organ at a church I have never played for before - a lot of times you get comments after the service like "I didn't know our organ could sound that way ! "
                      Regards, Larry

                      At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by toodles View Post
                        I would be surprised if your Clarinet 8 stop does not draw flutes at 8, 2-2/3, and 1-3/5 even though the 1-3/5 pitch doesn't have a separate stop tab. This approach is often called "synthesis" or "synthetic stops".

                        To my knowledge, Allen didn't actually build an independent clarinet stop in organs of this size. You can verify that it is synthetic by engaging the Clarinet 8 and then adding the 8 ft and 2-2-/3 ft pitches to see if they add anything. Also, you could (for a single note, to verify) bring on the 8 ft. flute, and play middle C, the G an octave and a half above, and then the E above that--do this on the manual without the Clarinet, and you can compare it to the Clarinet.
                        Thank you, Sir Toodles. I just played the organ for three hours, came in read the forum, and went back and turned it on again. With Clarinet 8 selected, Flute 8, and Flute Nasard don't add anything. Playing Flute 8 on the top manual, middle C, octave+ G, and E above does give the same sound as playing middle C with the Clarinet 8 on the lower manual.

                        Originally posted by toodles View Post
                        You could convert the clarinet to a Tierce 1-3/5 by inhibiting its engaging the 8 and 2-2/3 pitches. The additional pitches are likely added by multiple contacts on the stop tab mechanism. A short piece of spaghetti (the electrical insulation type, not the pasta ) over the 8 and 2-2/3 contact wires can do this temporarily.

                        Not sure if you are saying this organ has the "Reed/Trumpet becomes Oboe" or just an Oboe stop (and I'm not going to read through all 262 posts in this thread to find out!). But if it has the oboe stop, it's probably by synthesis. If it lacks it, the "Trumpet becomes Softer" or "Reeds Softer" is probably the same effect or very similar.
                        Thanks again. So we know that the organ is pulling in a 1-3/5 to make that Clarinet 8. And so... What would one want to use that 1-3/5 for other than to make up the Cornet? And so Cornet=Clarinet on this organ. (I have nice-looking tabs on the '59 for Tierce and Fife that I could transplant.)

                        The tab is "Reeds Become Oboe" and it works best on Trumpet 8. It also has "Flutes become Open" and "Flutes become Softer."

                        And the reason I'm not worried about adding anything is the *six* tabs dedicated to the antiphonals. I DO know where THAT goes.
                        -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                        -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112, L-102
                        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                        Comment


                        • As VOET suggested, the 4, 2-2/3, and 1-3/5 make up another synthetic stop and that is the only reason I can think of to separate the 1-3/5 as an independent stop--other than that sort of registration, the clarinet can suffice, and you can add 4 and 2 flutes for a different Cornet registration. I did try a registration with 4 and 1-3/5 once and thought it had potential, but haven't really used it any piece I've played.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by toodles View Post
                            JI would be surprised if your Clarinet 8 stop does not draw flutes at 8, 2-2/3, and 1-3/5 even though the 1-3/5 pitch doesn't have a separate stop tab. This approach is often called "synthesis" or "synthetic stops".

                            To my knowlege, Allen didn't actually build an independent clarinet stop in organs of this size. You can verify that it is synthetic by engaging the Clarinet 8 and then adding the 8 ft and 2-2-/3 ft pitches to see if they add anything. Also, you could (for a single note, to verify) bring on the 8 ft. flute, and play middle C, the G an octave and a half above, and then the E above that--do this on the manual without the Clarinet, and you can compare it to the Clarinet.

                            You could convert the clarinet to a Tierce 1-3/5 by inhibiting its engaging the 8 and 2-2/3 pitches. The additional pitches are likely added by multiple contacts on the stop tab mechanism. A short piece of spaghetti (the electrical insulation type, not the pasta ) over the 8 and 2-2/3 contact wires can do this temporarily.

                            Not sure if you are saying this organ has the "Reed/Trumpet becomes Oboe" or just an Oboe stop (and I'm not going to read through all 262 posts in this thread to find out!). But if it has the oboe stop, it's probably by synthesis. If it lacks it, the "Trumpet becomes Softer" or "Reeds Softer" is probably the same effect or very similar.

                            The Allen B3 (not Hammond!) had a Clarinet 8' on the Great that was spectacular. (The rest of the voices were about the same as those on a Conn of that vintage.) According to an Allen salesperson the Clarinet had a center-tapped coil on each note.

                            I just bent the 8' and 2-2/3' contacts on the Clarinet to get a separate 1-3/5' for the Allen C3. And yes, it wasn't very useful.

                            Messiaen may have suggested a registration with an odd use of the Tierce (1-3/5'). The memory fails...

                            Comment


                            • Hmm. Another thought - I should be able to find that Tierce on the long tone-strip on the right side of the organ.

                              Thanks Brother Toodles - I did note Voet's suggestion and would like to try it and the synthetic woodwind Michael suggested.

                              MarkS - I think that all the coils on the TC-4 are center-tapped. I think that was a much-touted sales feature. I would have said "Versus what, and why?"

                              Here's something different.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              That's from "Electronic Musical Instruments" Richard H. Dorf, 1968.
                              -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                              -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112, L-102
                              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                              Comment


                              • The TC4 looked handsome in drawknob dress.

                                All Allens used inductance-capacitance oscillators. The special voices of some of the vacuum tube customs and Clarinet on the B3 allegedly used center-tapped coils in the voicing circuits on a note-by-note basis.

                                Saville used resistance-capacitance oscillators, presumably less stable. Rodgers also used them to some extent.

                                I might add that the vacuum tube Allens used air-wound coils in the upper octaves; they are very stable.

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