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  • More progress. The $5.88 run capacitor from the local electrical shop solved the motor problem, and then adjusting the belt to just slip like a Leslie got it spinning. I let it run for thirty minutes and the motor got warm to the touch, but not hot, and the capacitor stayed cool.

    I also tripped the 14VDC relay for the hooter's flappers by hand and discovered that they work.

    There is no motor control unit on this AC gyro. Also, the relay only works for the flapper and not the gyro itself. This leads one to wonder if the gyro was activated by power from another source. There's only one male 120VAC connection in the gyro, and it is fused on one side and provides power for three outlets. And this leads me to wonder if (1) the gyro run all the time, or if (2) power was only applied to the gyro, and thus the flapper when needed, and (3) the flapper was controlled by some tremolo control on a theater organ.

    I'm pretty sure I'm going to convert the relay and speaker leads over to terminal strips to match the rest of the speakers.

    Anyway, I'll do some digging around to see what I can find out. As Duke Leo said, "Fortune passes everywhere."
    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
    -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
    -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

    Comment


    • Lamar,

      You are really getting a collection of vintage Allen equipment there ! It is a disease that cannot be cured.

      Many years ago I had an Allen Theater Deluxe 2 manual. And it had Gyros similar to the ones you have. But it did not have any sort of "reed flapper". Even after looking at the photo you posted I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what it is, and how it exactly works.

      If you could, please give a more detailed explanation of the mechanism. This would be more for my collection of esoteric Allen trivia than anything - I doubt I will ever encounter one.
      Regards, Larry

      At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 ! ), E-5AR ( X 2, 1 parts, 1 not ), D80 ( parts ), FX-1, FX-20, HS-7T ( parts ), EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen organs : T12-A, T-12B, ADC-6000D. Baldwin 626. Hammond Concorde. Lowrey CH32-1. A bunch of Synthesizers and Keyboards. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with VISTA ), Hammond A105, Baldwin 720T, Several small and medium size pipe organs of many sorts and builders.

      Comment


      • Hey, Larry - Thanks. I'll try to get some detail pictures, but imagine two horns facing upward, side by side, and we're looking at the wide sides. The tops of the horns, and their flare, are rectangular. On top of each of them is a long rectangular box. In each box is a driveshaft that goes through it long ways. In between the boxes is a coupler. On the right, the shaft extends a couple of inches and has a pulley. A belt from the pulley goes to a motor that is operated by a relay on the floor of the gyro. Inside the box is a long paddle that goes the length of the box, and the paddle is composed of two long "wings" that extend from slots in the driveshaft. The paddles spin when the speaker is hooting, and the flapping effect provides tremolo.

        At least that's how I think it works.

        And I think I have seen these for sale on eBay. When MarkS mentioned them way back in this thread, I was imagining something like a boat paddle that wobbled stuck in one of the huge 33" gyro boxes. Now I know that hooters have flappers, or the other way around.

        If you've seen a Vox Humana on a reed organ, that's the same theory.

        There was a similar looking gyro, but not nearly as nice as this cabinet, on eBay for $200 a few weeks ago. I couldn't tell if it had slots for the hooters on top, but that's the giveaway to the presence of the horns.

        The other gyro, the smaller one, I know came from a theater organ - it has the T-20 amp and a traps box. I'm going to get that running after I settle this one. (It has RCA inputs.) I have about three feet exposed space left in my office where the Conn and Rodgers are and need something to stick in it.

        I'm still looking for a 100 gyro that I can put on the diapasons.

        Who needs Leslies? We got GYROS!

        Here's a slightly better picture. That's the hooters and the flapper boxes, and the driveshaft is visible at top. The domed items are the tweeters. This thing zips right along.

        Click image for larger version

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        Last edited by Silken Path; 11-08-2018, 05:09 PM.
        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
        -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
        -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
        -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • Looks like the electronic equivalent to the motor-driven paddle trems used on Austin pipe organs for ranks installed on their Universal Air Chest.

          --- Tom
          Rodgers 660 with additional analog rack sets (practice), 36D/C in digital conversion, Yamaha CVP-107

          Comment


          • Originally posted by twnelson View Post
            Looks like the electronic equivalent to the motor-driven paddle trems used on Austin pipe organs for ranks installed on their Universal Air Chest.

            --- Tom
            Interesting. I've heard that Allen started with pipe organ tech and construction techniques and that's a reason that so many of the early ones are still in service. That, and their being repairable.

            The tremolo reminds me of the Vox Humana air-operated fans on the reed organs.
            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
            -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
            -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
            -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

            Comment


            • Thanks Lamar,

              Your description is very thorough, and makes perfect sense. There sure was a lot of inventiveness applied to mechanical sound animation back in the day. Of all the styles I have ever heard of / seen, this one is one I have never seen mentioned before this.
              Regards, Larry

              At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 ! ), E-5AR ( X 2, 1 parts, 1 not ), D80 ( parts ), FX-1, FX-20, HS-7T ( parts ), EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen organs : T12-A, T-12B, ADC-6000D. Baldwin 626. Hammond Concorde. Lowrey CH32-1. A bunch of Synthesizers and Keyboards. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with VISTA ), Hammond A105, Baldwin 720T, Several small and medium size pipe organs of many sorts and builders.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                Now I know that hooters have flappers, or the other way around.
                I think the flappers came about in the early 1900s, and the hooters came later. Either way, I think the restaurant is still in business.

                Originally posted by Larrytow View Post
                Of all the styles I have ever heard of / seen, this one is one I have never seen mentioned before this.
                Seriously, I've never heard of, nor have ever seen the speaker style you shared. I've played at least three TC-? organs, and have never seen those speakers on any of them. One was very pipe-like sounding (live church), while the other was more dead (dry church). The third I only played once (Catholic church), and I think it was somewhere in-between. Ironically, the saving grace of each organ was Allen's Reeds on the TC series organs.

                Maybe I will have the opportunity to see that system live before I croak. Thank you for sharing the particulars on that speaker style.

                Michael
                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                Comment


                • Allen used rotating paddles in front of Jensen horn drivers for reed channels in some of their custom speaker installations too. Here's a photo of the late, lamented Sacramento instrument, showing two horns with paddles and two without. The o-ring belt is missing between the motor and the paddle shafts.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Larry is my name; Allen is an organ brand name.

                  Main: Allen RMWTHEA.3 with Rocky Mount Electra-Piano, Allen 423-C + Gyro cabinet, Britson Opus OEM38, Saville Series IV Opus 209, Steinway AR Duo-Art, Mills Violano Virtuoso with MIDI
                  Lower Level: Hammond 9812H with roll player, Gulbransen Rialto, Roland E-200, Vintage Moog
                  Shop: Mason&Hamlin AR Ampico piano, Allen ADC-5300-D with 18 speakers and MIDI, 4 Allen theater organ tone cabinets (including 3 Gyros, but don't call me Gyro Gearloose!).

                  Comment


                  • Hi, Larry. Thanks for the picture. (What was the Sacramento instrument?)

                    I'll get a picture of the smaller gyro I have, too, (but I'm not planning to use it with the TC-4).

                    I've ordered some small terminal strips that look very much like the ones Allen used that I want to add for the speakers in the gyro. There are filter caps inside, but no chokes.

                    I tried the "reed chorus" out for an extended play yesterday, and it was sounding better to my ears by the time I stopped.

                    And just planning and plotting, but this gyro doesn't have idle capability, so I could add a 14 VDC relay to activate it. And I could use a couple of the six unused antiphonal relay tabs on the organ to run the gyro and the flapper. (It won't need a Gyro Off tab.)

                    I could borrow a relay from the '59, but I think a heavy duty one might be in order.
                    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                    -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                    -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                    -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AllenAnalog View Post
                      Allen used rotating paddles in front of Jensen horn drivers for reed channels in some of their custom speaker installations too. Here's a photo of the late, lamented Sacramento instrument, showing two horns with paddles and two without. The o-ring belt is missing between the motor and the paddle shafts.
                      Larry,

                      Your photo explains quite a bit. If I am guessing correctly, the "paddles" are the same as the rotating paddles in a vibraphone which help distribute the sound of that instrument? If so, I now fully understand what they do and what they are. Thank you!

                      Michael
                      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                      • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                      Comment


                      • Yes, the Allen rotating paddle system was just a small version of what is found on many other types of instruments to create a tremulant effect. Even Austin pipe organs with the Universal Wind Chest system used them since it was not possible to use a traditional tremulant system shaking the wind pressure.

                        The very large 1962 analog Allen organ that was in Sacramento has been discussed several times before on this forum. Here's a video of it before it was removed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVcJAGR4eI And here is a link to the photos: http://s862.photobucket.com/user/Del...962CustomAllen

                        I have both AC motor (one speed) and DC motor (multiple speed) Allen gyro cabinets on my analog theater organ. I do like the multi-speed cabinets best but they do require the Allen DC control unit and special motor.
                        Larry is my name; Allen is an organ brand name.

                        Main: Allen RMWTHEA.3 with Rocky Mount Electra-Piano, Allen 423-C + Gyro cabinet, Britson Opus OEM38, Saville Series IV Opus 209, Steinway AR Duo-Art, Mills Violano Virtuoso with MIDI
                        Lower Level: Hammond 9812H with roll player, Gulbransen Rialto, Roland E-200, Vintage Moog
                        Shop: Mason&Hamlin AR Ampico piano, Allen ADC-5300-D with 18 speakers and MIDI, 4 Allen theater organ tone cabinets (including 3 Gyros, but don't call me Gyro Gearloose!).

                        Comment


                        • So it's just a variant on the Vox Humana tremulant system on reed organs/pump organs. Interesting.

                          Michael
                          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AllenAnalog View Post
                            The very large 1962 analog Allen organ that was in Sacramento has been discussed several times before on this forum. Here's a video of it before it was removed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVcJAGR4eI And here is a link to the photos: http://s862.photobucket.com/user/Del...962CustomAllen
                            .
                            Thank you, Larry. It may be old news around the forum, but it's new to me. Wow!

                            ***

                            Looks like it has the wood-sided white-topped keys like my '59. So now we've identified three types of keys - piano style, wood-sided plastic, pegged-insert plastic - that were used in the 50's to 60's.
                            Last edited by Silken Path; 11-10-2018, 05:45 PM.
                            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                            -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                            -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                            -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                            Comment


                            • Progress. I converted the gyro from plugs to terminal blocks to make it easier to work with my other system's speakers. I did some research and found that the gyro is very similar to the model 325 that came with the analog Theater Deluxe. Here's what that looks like.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Mine (thanks for selling it to me, John!) is a model 317. It looks very much like the one pictured, except that there are no amps in it, and the hooters have the previously discussed flappers.

                              An interesting feature is that it has three pairs of slip rings and can handle two different inputs on the rotor. As a test, I have it hooked up directly to my diapason and reed amps, which are both 50W and played the organ some. The effect is very smooth and gentle on the diapasons, and the reeds play through both the hooters AND the two midrange and two tweeters on the rotor.

                              On the Theater Deluxe, it would have had one dual-input T-50 for both reeds and flutes and one T-20 for the hooters only.

                              Anyway, the plan is to integrate it with the other speakers so it can be the gyro for both the reeds and diapasons (one tremolo tab will turn on both). I need to select a 14VDC relay that can handle the current the gyro motor might need to start up. Then the existing relay for the flapper, which is 14VDC, will be on another tab. This means that I'll still have the bass speakers in the reeds stationary cabinet channel AND the 4-Bass on the diapasons.
                              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                              -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                              -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                              -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                              Comment


                              • Sideways progress. Well, this gyro wanted to have 115VAC available and start spinning as soon as the organ powered up, if I'm reading this right. That explains why there's no relay for the AC to the motor and why there's a 2 amp Slo-Blo on the AC circuit. That also explains why the placarding calls for the belt to be loose - it doesn't need to ramp up quickly and smoothly like the big flutes gyro. In fact, this gyro sounds pretty crummy until it comes up to speed.

                                I'm not morally opposed to keeping it running for instant response when I need it, but that's even more relays I'll need. (But hey, it has six antiphonal tabs I will never use, and they all provide 14 VDC and a ground down to the terminal strip on the floor.) And I can stop looking for a power relay.

                                It looks like one tab on the organ can go to "Tremolo Reeds" and one to "Tremolo Diapason," and they'll really just be providing signal to the already started gyro. Then a third tab will be flapper on reeds - I'll have to find a nicer name for that one. The crazy thing is that I'm sure the flappers ARE *somewhere* in the ASM, and that should trace back to a stop name previously used.

                                The two slip ring circuits in the gyro go to one each midrange and tweeter. I tried putting the diapason on both sides to see if that would smooth up the pulses. Boy did it ever not! It doubled them and everything sounded staccato.

                                But... as it slows down after the power is removed, it hits a sweet spot that is really nice. For the diapason, at least, I'd really like to have it run at that speed. (But how?)

                                I haven't had a chance to hear the flappers yet, but the two hooters still sound crisp and clean. They sound as good as the modern ones I put in the stationary reed cabinet, and they were designed to both operate from a 20W amp.

                                So tomorrow I will over-socialize and over-consume and probably won't work on the organ. May all of you have a blessed and safe Thanksgiving (and watch out for your blood sugar).

                                On edit: Well, this is shocking, but I did find a reference in one schematic in the ASM. That rotating doohickey is called... a flapper. That's actually the real name of thing.
                                Last edited by Silken Path; 11-21-2018, 08:33 PM.
                                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                                -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                                -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                                -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                                Comment

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