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    #31
    One more - here's the back of the organ.

    Click image for larger version

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    Is anyone familiar with Allen serial numbers? 3483 has a separate power supply and preamp, and 41155 has one unit. 3483 is a 1959 model according to the bottom of the lower manual. On #2, I only found an autograph. (Assembler's initials.) I wonder what year 41155 is.

    Organ #2 does not have the 4 pots on the swell pedal. Two red wires go into a box on the pedal.

    Anybody want me to check anything in particular?
    Last edited by Silken Path; 07-08-2018, 02:49 PM.
    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
    -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
    -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
      TC-4 #1 has Celeste sideways switches for the upper and lower manual, which #2 does not have. #2 has a light for "electronic blower."

      #2 also has some lichenous growth on the keys, which don't feel as good, actually, as #1. That growth is resistant to spit and finger rubbing. Let's see what Windex and finger rubbing can do.
      Lamar,

      There was a thread several years ago regarding whitening keys. The one I remember in particular is using toothpaste to whiten the keys--perhaps whitening toothpaste.

      IIRC, on both Allen TC-3 organs I played, the Celeste was activated by one of the general tabs. I also see you don't have any rotating speakers, so you won't be able to get tremolo via that method. If my recomemberer is not broken, the Reeds and Flutes were on one side of the church, and the speakers for the Diapasons and Strings were on the other side of the church. The pedal stops were split between sides.

      Hope this helps. You might be able to search for "whitening keys" in the Forum search box and find the thread I referenced. It is almost certainly closed by now.

      Michael
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

      Comment


        #33
        Hi, Michael,

        Thank you. I'm very much still learning about this type of organ, so yes, this kind of information certainly helps.

        Actually I do have one gyro. AllenAnalog Larry identified it for me on page 3. It's a continuously variable DC gyro that is driven by the right side of the Whind Generator. It has some adjustments there and the organ has tabs labeled:

        Tremolo
        Flute Gyro Off
        Flute Tremolo

        I take it that at least two of the three run the gyro... so this organ had the gyro attached to the flutes.

        The organ also has "Contra Diapason 32." The reason I mention that is because the first organ has "Resultant 32" in the pedals. I'll need to find out if there are 32-foot oscillators in it, or if they just left off the "resultant" part.

        I do have some of the speakers marked with stuff like "right bottom" and "top left," but so far I haven't found anything telling WHICH speakers should go to WHICH channel. I do have some tweeters to find.

        That first organ has tabs for "Stage Gyro" and two slide switches that say "Normal - Off - Celeste"

        I think I remember the toothpaste thread. Actually I think these are the carcasses of yellow-green lichen - stuff that will grow on YOU if stay still too long in the south (and the kudzu doesn't get you).

        #1 has a nicer feeling keyboard, so I suspect that #2 needs some maintenance. #2, though, has a nicer pedalboard. It looks like it was just refelted and is buttery SMOOTH. I can't wait to try it. (But I will, of course.)
        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
        -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
        -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
        -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


          #34
          The gyro slow speed is called "celeste" and is very similar to the Chorale setting on a Leslie Speaker--it does not produce a true organ celeste effect.

          Re: Your 3 tabs (Tremolo, Flute Gyro Off, and Flute Tremolo)--Tremolo should add an AM (amplitude modulation) effect to all voices, maybe except the flute; Flute Gyro Off turns off the slow speed Gyro; flute tremolo probably puts the gyro for the flutes into the fast speed.

          If the organ has the celeste oscillators, there is probably a tab labelled "celeste strings"--typically adjacent to "diapason becomes viola" and "diapason becomes dulciana" in the "Generals" stop tab section.

          If the organ has a stop "Contra Diapason 32" it is pretty certain to have an octave of oscillators for the lowest octave, and not a resultant. The "Resultant 32" stop is a flute resultant.

          Early Allen organs had a separate Gyro for the flute a one for the diapason; around the time of the TC-4, I think it was more common to just use the Gyro on the flute--that's pretty much how the TC-4 was arranged on the one my church got around 1970.

          The "Electronic Blower" is driven by the Whind module, and will vary in brightness a little with changes in the Whind voltage.

          The Whind add low frequency random noise on top of the keying voltage to provide a variation in volume--there is also a path for the noise alone to be injected into the output for an air noise effect.

          You could probably move the keys from #1 to #2 but not the coupler slide assemblies so rewiring would not be needed.

          By the way, if the Whind module is in use, and you move some oscillators from #1 to #2, be aware that each oscillator will need a resistor added to it to let the whind work. The resistor is interposed in between the keying input and the attack/decay capacitor to prevent the capacitor from just filtering out the noise. I have to dig through some of my Allen tech info to find it, but I do have some documentation on this and on the Whind system in general.

          Comment


            #35
            Boy you guys went to upmarket churches. The churches we went to had Hammonds and Baldwins.

            OK - that makes sense. It does have a "Celeste Strings" tab and it has the celeste generator, so the gyro would be free for the chorale effect. This means one can adjust it for the best pleasant effect. I do like chorale on my Ventilator.

            That sounds mystical: the light varies with the whind. Cool beans.

            I'll be looking at my pile of cables to determine which ones go to the gyro. (It has sockets for AC and the cable from the whind machine/gyro driver.)

            Also, I was surprised to see that the organ has no power cord. I'm not sure why THAT got removed, but I'll look for it, too.

            Sir Tootles, as always thank you for the great information. You ARE handy to have around.

            On edit: On the first organ, I can see wood when I depress a key. On the second organ, the keys are plastic on the sides and on the bottoms, and the keys are beautifully aligned. Aligned moreso than the first organ. I don't know if there's wood inside those plastic keys, but I'm thinking I would like to do a swap of the keys at some point.

            Michael - the keys cleaned up nicely with just an initial cleaning with baby wipes and then Windex. There are two blank tabs on the organ. One of the same tabs on the other organ is labeled "Stage Gyro." Where these put there for end users? Or is it likely they're just rubbed bare?
            Last edited by Silken Path; 07-09-2018, 08:22 AM. Reason: Add to the post
            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
            -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
            -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
            -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

            Comment


              #36
              The church I attended was in a very small rural Iowa town and they built a new church building--the previous organ (in the old building) was a Hammond C variation with a chorus generator. A generous donor, I believe, paid for the new Allen. The contenders were a Conn (probably 830), Rodgers 32B, and the Allen TC4. The organ committee thought the Allen had the greatest clarity of sound.

              Allen originally used plastic covered wooden keyboard, like many of the early organ manufacturers, and pretty much the same as pipe organ manufacturers used for unit pipe organs (including the same approach to keying). Allen then designed plastic caps that attached to the wooden key sticks (which provided the fulcrum for the lever). You end up with a key that won't warp or de-laminate from the wood, and you get the perfect alignment. Each key is individually replaceable. But I don't think the feel of the keyboard is quite as good--not bad, just not quite as nice. Except for the cost of the tooling (which is a lot when you consider you need 9 different molds--one for each of A-G, top C, and the sharp key) the plastic keys are a lower piece part cost.

              I doubt the stop labeling has rubbed bare, since the it is done by engraving. "Stage Gyro" sould have been a special stop tab, since it isn't a regular organ function. Allen would have provided it (and installed the necessary switching) if requested at the original installation. It is also possible it was added later by a technician or knowledgeable user.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                On edit: On the first organ, I can see wood when I depress a key. On the second organ, the keys are plastic on the sides and on the bottoms, and the keys are beautifully aligned. Aligned moreso than the first organ. I don't know if there's wood inside those plastic keys, but I'm thinking I would like to do a swap of the keys at some point.

                Michael - the keys cleaned up nicely with just an initial cleaning with baby wipes and then Windex. There are two blank tabs on the organ. One of the same tabs on the other organ is labeled "Stage Gyro." Where these put there for end users? Or is it likely they're just rubbed bare?
                The wood on either side of the key was probably earlier. Later keyboards (including the digital era) have plastic key caps that are held only by one screw in the back, and a plastic piece that goes in a slot in the wooden key stick. I'm sure Allen made the change for a purpose (i.e. cost or convenience or alignment), but the keyboards could probably be switched.

                The blanks were probably for expansion possibilities. For some strange reason, Allen put blank tabs, knobs, and other blanks on their organs. I don't know if the idea is they would be prepared for expansion except the engraving, but the net result was a constant reminder to the organist what the church couldn't afford. Other companies won't put them in if they do not come with the organ. The Stage Gyro engraving probably looks a bit different than the stock Allen tabs. If it does, it was either added, or changed out later.

                Hope you have fun with the 2 instruments!

                Michael
                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                Comment


                  #38
                  It's not really so strange that Allen provided blanks on their organs. Things like chimes, choir speakers, outdoor speakers, and even special lights might be controlled by those tabs. The TC4 I played had 4 rocker tabs added to one of the cheek blocks, two were for main/antiphonal speakers, the other two were blank.

                  Allen was just allowing for a little customization, probably based on the experience they'd seen, without documenting a completely custom shop order for each little change needed--in manufacturing, you would take a standard "build" and then add a specification change to note anything that wasn't "standard". It dramatically reduces the engineering costs of these modifications.

                  I had an MDS-38 for a while, but when ordered, I specified a Zimbelstern option, which provided for an engraved drawknob, and an output relay and 120 VAC socket controlled by the drawknob. On a standard model, it would have been a blank drawknob or, optionally used for "Vibrato". The cost was $100 or $200, I remember.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Thank you Sir Tootles and Michael,

                    I have exercised the keys a bit now on the latest organ, but they seem a little "crunchy" like they're rubbing the key next to them and making a noise.

                    That older organ with the plastic covered keys has plastic tops that are around 1/8" thick. They should last a long time, and it looks like that small undulation can be adjusted out by that stop on the front guide pin, if I understand that's how it works. I don't mind the imperfect alignment. Curiously, the keys on that organ have a slight "whoosh" or "shoosh" sound. That makes you feel like it's doing something... something IMPORTANT.

                    Anyway, it will be a while before I get to changing out keys. I'm still happily picking up cables and going around to see what possibly they could connect to. Then I'll have to learn where the output from the three channels physically is on the organ. The block diagram shows diapason + celeste merging to go to the expression petal, for example. So do the reeds and flute. This organ has a preamp in there somewhere.

                    I need to find out where that keying voltage comes from the whind machine into the organ, where the power cord goes (it's a little different from the other organ), and where any other connections are. Ah, just noticed two terminal strips on the bottom. One comes from the preamp and has plenty of connections. Another is installed at 90 degrees to that one, and I'm guessing that's where my power comes in. Annoyingly, somebody removed ALL the screws from the empty sides. For some reason, I'd put things like that back in, at least finger tight.

                    The later organ has a much expanded "Generals" section, and one mystery tab that just says "C" (with the quotes). What would THAT be?
                    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                    -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                    -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                    -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                    Comment


                      #40
                      "C" = Chiff

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Thanks, Tootles. I would not have guessed that. In fact, I'd probably think something was seriously wrong if I tried it.

                        A nephew has appeared and the speaker stacks are stacked. Now I'm ready for some air conditioning. I appreciate ALL of you for taking an interest in this project.

                        By the way, does anyone know what that large stack on terminals on the right side is for? Both organs have that, but nothing is attached. (And thank you Allen Co. for using color coding in the wire bundles. That helps.) I am guessing by the way they're grouped that they represent the organ stops. In the morning I'll count them and see if they match the stops.
                        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                        -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                        -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                        -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                          Thanks, Tootles. I would not have guessed that.
                          I'm not sure of the last time Toodles has tooted, but I think his moniker is spelled, Toodles.

                          Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                          By the way, does anyone know what that large stack on terminals on the right side is for? Both organs have that, but nothing is attached. (And thank you Allen Co. for using color coding in the wire bundles. That helps.) I am guessing by the way they're grouped that they represent the organ stops. In the morning I'll count them and see if they match the stops.
                          I have the same suspicion for a few reasons. One of the reasons is that Allen uses that same method to ground all the stops on both my MOS-2 and ADC organs, so it sounds like a practice they have been using for quite some time. It's too bad you can't find someone with an Allen Analog Service Manual so you could have them look it up.

                          Thanks for your continued expansion of this thread. It is most informative and enlightening. Down the road, it may benefit a future TC-4 organ owner.

                          Michael
                          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Why, yes, a manual would be nice. I know that it's called a "Tone Strip," which is a CLUE. Tomorrow I'll follow the bundle to see where they go, and the grand cable caper will continue.

                            Toodles, my apologies. I see that I've done that several times. Senior moments over and over again.

                            Here's a guy playing a TC-4 in the dark by a fireplace. If it has six big speakers, they're not showing.

                            Last edited by Silken Path; 07-09-2018, 07:11 PM. Reason: Correct Toodles name, add video
                            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                            -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                            -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                            -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Here's a link to a page about a fairly famous TC4 installed in the Church Center for the United Nations: http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/htm...hCenterUN.html

                              Obviously a custom console--and the thing atop is the custom speaker system. The page gives one of the stoplists that was offered for the TC4--the one in my church (circa 1970) had just regular flutes instead of quintatons and a trumpet instead of regal, and the 32 ft Resultant.

                              I believe the organ is still in place and in use.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Neat, and those speakers fill that hall. Hmm. #2 has that brighter-looking pedal board, too, and that is a 1963 model.

                                Here is the image of speakers (except the gyro) that I've already posted. I have two of the 16-driver speakers that I think are hi-mid.



                                Since the organ has a pedal 32' and several 16' (including a bombarde), are any of those large speakers, especially the case with four and/or the case with the two black ones, bass speakers? I tapped on the back of the cone on the black ones, and it was a much higher sound than a thump. The one with four speakers don't actually have very large magnets, and the speaker with the missing horns (and tweeters) has slightly smaller speakers in it. I now have them arranged:

                                Left: DC Gyro, 2 black speakers unit (bass?), 16-speaker hi-mid(?) with missing tweeters (slanted upward in case)
                                Right: 4 speaker unit, missing horns unit (slanted), 16-speaker hi-mid (slanted)

                                I am wondering if there was a sub-woofer (that's probably in somebody's home theater room, with the tweeters) to support the 32' pedal and that bombarde. Am I going to need to protect these speakers from the 32'?

                                And the eventual question will be what to send to which speakers.

                                The organ expects the gyro to be on flutes, so that one's certain. There are two of the hi-mid and one is labeled "top," so that's a fair bet, and they are now on top.

                                I put the gyro on the floor simply because it is heavy. These speakers, by the way are 33" high x 33" wide x 24" deep, except for the one with the black speakers - it's about 20" high.

                                Can anybody tell me what the characteristic sound of the missing horns is like and what stops might need them?
                                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                                -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                                -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                                -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                                Comment

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