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Allen TC-4 Project

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  • #91
    It's hard to let go, so let's do some figuring. Using that same calculator,

    http://apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

    and using the actual measured values + 15% (9.89 for the sweet sixteen, 12.19 for the bass below it), I get...

    for 2,000 Hz - 8 mfd and .9 mH
    for 4,000 Hz - 4 mfd and .49 mH

    So what is this 60 mfd capacitor doing on the sweet sixteen?

    Here's a closeup of the crossover. The terminals from left to right are AMP, then two commons, then LO (with the coil), and finally HI (with the capacitor).

    Click image for larger version

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    -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
    -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

    Comment


    • #92
      I don't know what size horn you need, but MCM Electronics/Newark has a midrange horn for about $15 that might work, see: http://farnell.com//datasheets/23296...402.1532057380

      The Newark site is down now, so I can't get you to the general product info page, but when it is back the Part No. is 13T7684

      They have some other horns that are also affordable if this one isn't a good fit.

      When speakers are efficient, low power is all that is necessary. That's the advantage of these old speaker system designs.

      Comment


      • #93
        Thanks, Toodles - Newark is up and down this morning. I'm talking to a guy on eBay who has two of the Jensens.

        Don't see an exact fit at Newark, but wow, what a product range they have.

        News: the Jensen 208/209 horns common on eBay are smaller than the speaker cutouts in the slanted speaker I plan to use for reeds.

        More news: similar model TJ7681 is closest to the cutout size. I will order when their website stabilizes. Sir Toodles scores again!

        All right - I think I got them ordered.
        Last edited by Silken Path; 07-20-2018, 02:43 PM.
        -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
        -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • #94
          LarryTow Larry of the forum was kind enough to send some snapshots of the TC-4 that he previously owned, which was VERY similar to my '59. I noticed that his gyro and half-height bass speaker were bolted together, and I went to look at mine. I see the same mounting holes in those two.

          So much for speculation - it's time to move the speakers.

          The lift table came in handy for this. Lowered the sweet sixteen onto saw horses and moved it out. Moved the half-height onto the sweet sixteen. Pushed the gyro onto the lift table and put the half-height on the floor. Put the sweet sixteen on top of the gyro on top of the lift table and cranked it up to the top of the half-height, and then just PUSHED the gyro and sweet sixteen onto the half-height. Sounds horrible, but it only took about 20 minutes total.

          My next project is to install the tweeters into the gyro. The horns for the reeds speaker should be here Monday. By the way, what I'm calling the reeds speaker is listed as a 107 - two 12", two horns, two tweeters and it's called "Stationary Tremolo." Hmm.
          -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
          -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

          Comment


          • #95
            The reed cabinet may have a paddle (fan) tremolo, possibly with an electronic assist.

            Comment


            • #96
              Hi, MarkS - Thank you. It has two horns, two tweeters, and two bass speakers, but I'm thinking it's too high falutin' to use a mechanical fan. -- What am I saying? It has a rotary disk with three 12" midranges and three tweeters. That's about as mechanical as it gets.

              However, I think you're right. it's looking likely that the tremolo section of the 2-part Whind generator was used with it (!). Clues, which many people have contributed, are pointing toward it being substituted for the 2nd gyro, as the '64 price list shows this model coming with two gyro cabs and "a separate pedal cabinet." I haven't figured out what the pedal cabinet is. Was it the four-speaker bass unit? That's listed for only $200 -- by far the least expensive speaker. Then there's a "third" speaker cabinet that was $765.
              -----
              All right - Here's a quote: "The model TC-4 [1963] contains as standard equipment, two gyrophonic projectors, each containing three 12" speakers which produce middle ranges and three high-frequency drivers which project the upper frequencies, and a separate pedal cabinet containing four stationary 15" speakers which project the very low bass tones -- a total of sixteen speakers."

              The sweet sixteens must have been to reinforce the midrange and treble - compensate for the missing gyro.

              News: Today I noticed that amplifier #1 has two input sockets and level controls. The other two only have one.
              Last edited by Silken Path; 07-21-2018, 07:37 PM.
              -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
              -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

              Comment


              • #97
                All replacement speakers are now installed, except for the tweeters in the gyro. Here are snapshots of the top sweet sixteen (Allen #105) and the middle "stationary speaker" (#106) with new horns and tweeters installed. In both cases, these are speakers that Toodles kindly suggested. (Thank you, sir.)

                Click image for larger version

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                -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by MarkS View Post
                  The reed cabinet may have a paddle (fan) tremolo, possibly with an electronic assist.
                  Hi, MarkS - Thanks - I found a reference to it - the 107 speaker can have a motor and belt-driven "flapper box" inside, and it was intended for reeds. Wonder what it sounded like? (A reed organ vox humana on steroids, maybe.)

                  Progress - got the three tweeters into the gyro 100. Haven't found a cable to go to the 14 VDC socket, and haven't found a schematic showing the 100 gyro with the driver. I'll post a photo of the gyro when I get it cleaned up a bit.

                  A single person - 562 - seems to have done a lot of the final assembly on this organ. I see his/her stamp on the power supply, amps, junction boxes, cross-overs, and inside the gyro and all speakers.
                  -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                  -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
                  -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Person 562 was probably the final inspector.

                    A Vox Humana on asteroids would be even cooler.

                    Comment


                    • Yep. A worker bee would not have this claim to fame.

                      Here's a picture of the inside of the gyro DC driver box. The second and third items on the left are the 14 VDC input sockets. Top is 115 VAC, bottom is four-conductor switch. Correction: the next item down is the 14V input. The second and third items are fuse holders.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      And here's a closeup of the terminal switch showing the different voltages that can be switched.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Notes: There's evidence that the gyro and the two-bass speaker unit were not only bolted together, the bass unit was actually considered part of a combo that included both. Some had a T-50 amp inside the gyro, but there's no evidence one was every bolted into this one.
                      Last edited by Silken Path; 07-25-2018, 09:46 AM.
                      -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                      -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
                      -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                      Comment


                      • There have been many Allen speaker cabinets on ebay over the years that have the Gyro cabinet bolted on top of a bass speaker cabinet. Since the treble frequencies are more directional this certainly makes sense in a residential situation. By having the bass speakers next to the floor you have one boundary plane to enhance the bass and keep the low frequency shaking of the combined cabinet closest to the point of contact.

                        For an example of a mechanical vibrato on Jensen horns for the reed channel, see photos of that now-gone large analog organ in Sacramento. ( http://s862.photobucket.com/user/Del...962CustomAllen - photo #18). In the photo you see that one pair of horns has the moving vanes but the belt is missing between the motor and the vanes so it either fell apart or was disconnected. Austin pipe organs with the Universal Wind Chest used a very large set of mechanical blades to create a tremulant effect since you could not practically vary the wind pressure inside the chest because of the way it was constructed.

                        If you do indeed have the schematics for the various versions of the DC motor drive assembly, you should be able to find the one that matches the vintage of your unit to verify how it was connected to the organ. Since these were "universal" units, there was an extra connector on the chassis to facilitate various options available for additional speaker cabinets. I've included the schematic for one later version of this unit.

                        My two DC Gyro cabinets have slightly different wiring because they came off of different model instruments, one with my 3-manual theater organ and the other one I got without an organ on ebay. But in both cases the 2-pin Jones connector was simply a duplicate of the 14V power (+ and common - or "ground") that came through two of the pins on the 4-pin connector. It was used to connect to other speakers for control functions. So the 4-pin connector is all that you need to connect the Gyro cabinet. Pin 1 = "Ground" or 14VDC common; Pin 2 = Relay "11"; Pin 3 = Relay "10" and Pin 4 = +14VDC. The 120 VAC always comes in on a separate connector.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Edited to add:

                        I don't know why I didn't think of this before since it was standard Allen practice when there were remote amplifiers. I just verified this with two of the speaker cabinets I bought but am not yet using. Each one has a power amp and relay box for the 120-Volt amp power that has a 14 Volt coil. When the console power is turned on, the constant 14 Volt signal was propagated from cabinet to cabinet via the 2-pin Jones connectors. Each cabinet has a separate line cord going to that relay box.

                        That way the console power switch did not feed all of the amps in the organ. Of course that is especially important when there is some distance between the console and the speakers and there was a remote amp rack. But even with an analog organ with 4 furniture-grade cabinets they did this as well. Of course once Allen moved to the MOS-1 organs there was an outlet box in the bottom of the console with the appropriate relay for delayed turn-on of the amps plugged into those switched receptacles.
                        Last edited by AllenAnalog; 07-25-2018, 04:50 PM.
                        Larry is my name; Allen is an organ brand. Allen RMWTHEA.3 with RMI Electra-Piano; Allen 423-C+Gyro; Britson Opus OEM38; Saville Series IV Opus 209; Steinway AR Duo-Art, Mills Violano Virtuoso with MIDI; Hammond 9812H with roll player; Gulbransen Rialto; Roland E-200; Mason&Hamlin AR Ampico piano, Allen ADC-5300-D with MIDI.

                        Comment


                        • Thank you, Larry. I'll print those and look at my pictures. Ah, this is CLOSE to my gyro. This is a 905-0038 and mine is a 905-0018. Cool beans.

                          I did find a similar one, but not exact, used with a three manual Allen that had three gyros. Looking at "flute" I see that it is sharing two bass speakers.

                          So the two-prong VDC is not needed - makes me feel better since I looked and looked through the cables I got with it. I do have both the four-prong and the power cables.

                          So at least I can hook things up and try giving it a whirl when the power supply comes back... if it does. Still have to find the connections on the terminal strip, but I'm slowly finding what to look for. I can take those pin-outs and look for connections. Especially since I found that the organ schematic I have (Allen 314), it says the terminal strip connections are GND, 14 VDC, Diapason & Reed tremolo stops with 14 VDC on them. I have to match them to the stops this organ actually has, but this is doable once I get power.
                          Last edited by Silken Path; 07-25-2018, 02:25 PM.
                          -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                          -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
                          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                          Comment


                          • Power conumdrum

                            I got some dissatisfying news from the shop that has the power supply. The guy who works on the "old stuff" has twelve projects ahead of mine, pushing things out a few weeks. This after I was being patient and didn't ask them for a week and a half. That gives me time to wait and wonder and look around at other solutions. (It was likely to be a transformer leaking to ground I suspect and $$$ to fix.)

                            So... I see two types of DC power supplies out there. Ham gear and medical/scientific/industrial switching power supplies.

                            Am I correct in assuming that modern equipment is likely to be smoother in power and run cooler? Would one like this likely last a decade or two in organ use?

                            Here's the ham gear.

                            http://megawattpowersupplies.com/

                            The 30/36 amp 400-12 is the one I'm interested in. They are made in California. There's a long thread at

                            https://www.worldwidedx.com/threads/...parison.182976

                            where hams are talking about them.

                            And here's an industrial type supply. (Yes, I know that this one is 15V.)

                            https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/st...ductId=2219815

                            Of course, everything in the organ GROUNDS through the power supply, so I'd have to create something to handle that. Also I looked at some automotive style 13.8V gear, but it doesn't necessarily look like it's very filtered.
                            -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                            -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
                            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                              ...

                              Am I correct in assuming that modern equipment is likely to be smoother in power and run cooler? Would one like this likely last a decade or two in organ use?
                              No, that really isn't a good assumption. Old fashioned linear power supplies can be very well filtered. As to running cooler, it's a matter of power and those laws of physics haven't changed.

                              One thing to watch out for is if you are using the Whind generator. Allen piggy-backed the whind noise onto the DC keying voltage. Typically the DC filters would wash out the noise, so I'm sure Allen did something in their supplies to prevent that from happening. A generic power supply would not address that issue.

                              The components in an old power supply that are likely to fail over time are capacitors, resistors, and wire insulation. The transformer itself or an inductor has very little likelihood of failure. Diodes can also fail, and your old supply probably has an older style rectifier (diode)--those can be replaced with modern ones that handle more current in a smaller package. The item with the heat sink fins on your supply (from the photo) is a rectifier/diode.

                              Comment


                              • Thanks, Toodles. The only provision for B+ for keying on this one comes from the Whind generator. So, I do want to stick to the original power supply and it's good to know that the transformers are not likely to need replacing. I've been watching them on eBay and a lot of them cost more than the organ cost.

                                Other than the noise, is there any reason I couldn't use that $60 30/36 amp unit at least temporarily? I'm at the point now where I'm done with the speakers and need some 14V ("magnet supply") to further troubleshoot.

                                About the only thing I know about switching power supplies is that the head of our rural EMC some years ago said that all the switching power supplies in use in computer gear was causing an increasing load on the grid. That just made me hug my computer closer. As an aside, we're not far from two connected lakes with a small dam between them. During the day they run water into the lower lake to generate power. At night, they pump it back up.

                                Oh, and by the way... I have an older, but still good travel cooler with a Peltier junction that for years I used as a convenience fridge until the power supply went. I'd use the PS for that after my Allen PS comes back.
                                Last edited by Silken Path; 07-25-2018, 06:34 PM.
                                -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                                -- Rodgers W5000, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3, E112 - M-102 coming soon
                                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                                Comment

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