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  • Good information

    Originally posted by AllenAnalog View Post
    I don't know why I didn't think of this before since it was standard Allen practice when there were remote amplifiers. I just verified this with two of the speaker cabinets I bought but am not yet using. Each one has a power amp and relay box for the 120-Volt amp power that has a 14 Volt coil. When the console power is turned on, the constant 14 Volt signal was propagated from cabinet to cabinet via the 2-pin Jones connectors. Each cabinet has a separate line cord going to that relay box.

    That way the console power switch did not feed all of the amps in the organ. Of course that is especially important when there is some distance between the console and the speakers and there was a remote amp rack. But even with an analog organ with 4 furniture-grade cabinets they did this as well. Of course once Allen moved to the MOS-1 organs there was an outlet box in the bottom of the console with the appropriate relay for delayed turn-on of the amps plugged into those switched receptacles.
    Hi, Larry - I just noticed this addition. Mine seems to have the standard 12' cables and I'm pretty sure that everything is powered from the 115 AC on the organ. I'll look closely at the equipment shelving tomorrow to see if anything has it's own plug (that is not plugged in). There is one power cable coming from the organ that ends in a female plug on the equipment shelves. OK - that makes sense about what the 14 VDC plugs are used for. Ah, I see - from your copy above - the plug is labeled "Relay control" and goes to pins 1 & 4 on the four prong, which go to 14 VDC and GND somewhere on the long barrier strip.

    Even better -- It says "Gyro control cables always have the same pin connections... 1. Black, 2. Brown, 3. White, 4. Red."

    So, Progress: 1. Black to GND, 2. Brown to +14 VDC (unswitched), 3. White to Flute Tremolo Stop, 4. Red to 14 VDC. It's just a matter of finding these terminals. (I'm going to label every one of these connections on the floor of the organ.)

    Hehe - I'm learning more and more about this organ every day. When I get done, I'll be an expert... on setting up THIS organ.

    And hey - I'm ready to start testing the amplifiers and speakers.

    News on that front, I think I have the sweet sixteens reversed from side to side and can put the crossover in the other side to share the sweet sixteen with the "pedals speaker," the four bass unit (Allen 205).

    So this rearranges the speakers again.

    Left: 2-bass shared with gyro, sweet sixteen on top.
    Right: 4-bass shared with sweet sixteen, reeds stationary, sweet sixteen on top

    I'm still not imagining HOW the three channels should be distributed. Seems one sweet sixteen is odd one out and does not have a bass speaker... I could share it with the reeds stationary, but they'd be crossed right to left.

    Oh, well, next thing to find out is if the amps all work.

    The wires in the 2-bass, by the way, exactly reach up to the crossover on the side of the gyro.

    Thanks, Larry. One step closer now.
    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
    -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

    Comment


    • Allen Analog Systems Manual 1967

      My 1967 3 manual Theater Deluxe came with all of the service manuals and there does not appear to be a lot of change regarding those AC and DC motor gyro cabinets. The manual that I have attached shows a lot of the interconnecting wiring, which appears to be related to your issue. It shows the patching of the various tone generators to the correct cabinets. Mine had the horizontal tremulant drum for the reeds also. You'll see those horns and missing tweeters. Regarding the tone ranks, simply think TIBIA instead of FLUTE, if necessary, while reading. The generators appear to be fairly similar from 1958 up through mine and the differences between theater and classical are somewhat subtle, electronically speaking. I hope that it might be of some use. The subject organ is in my avatar, although no longer in my possession. I attempted to load all of the manuals (there are almost a half dozen) onto this site but frankly cannot find them and do not know if I was successful or not.

      On another subject, regarding your Roland 5000: I have had a couple of Ateliers with the failing keyweight glue and that does not necessarily total the organ. The manuals can be removed and the keys subsequently removed from the manuals. I have only found one product that will dissolve the glue but boy does it ever! DRANO. Put anything tainted in a mix of Drano and water (a tablespoon is plenty in a quart or so) and you will have clean keys and clean, slightly rusting, key weights the next morning.

      Good luck.
      Attached Files
      Roland Atelier AT-90s, AT-80s, AT-70, 30, and 15. Roland VR-760 combo
      Yamaha S-90, Kurzweil PC-3x, Casio Privia PX-330, Roland E-80, G-70, BK-5, Leslie 760, 820
      Moved on:
      Allen 3MT/Hauptwerk, Technics GA1, Yamaha HX1, AR80, numerous Hammonds, including 2 M's, an L, 2 A-100's, XP-2, XM-1/1c, & an XK-3. Roland Atelier AT-30, 60r, 80, & 20r(2 units), and a slew of Leslies (147, 142, 760, 900, 330).
      Korg Triton Le-61, Casio Privia PX-310 & 110, and Kurzweils: PC-2x, SP-88, Pro-III, K1000

      Comment


      • Howdy, neighbor. Thank you very much. Wow - that's a light-weight organ compared with the T4. This also has some more readable views than the 314 service instructions. This is great.

        Tonight my plan is sit down and go through the different organs in the ASM and training materials to see if I can find the pins/color coding for the Whind generator. The cable I have has the same color conductors as the gyro.

        I've heard about soaking them in Drano. I've also heard that some organists don't mind the absence of the weights... but I think I have some where they're gone, and I certainly do. I may have a line on an inexpensive parts organ, and I'd like to experiment with it before I dig into my pride and joy.

        Thanks again!
        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
        -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • Wouldn't be a bit surprised if a dead Atelier AT-70, AT-80, or AT-90 might have similar manuals to the Rodgers W5000 and they're mostly unrepairable once the tiny PCB capacitors give up. The cleaning is mostly to get the keys to stop sticking and wee-weeing over everything.

          Regarding the weight, do not be deceived. The two manual and the three manual are electronically close enough that apparently only one set of manuals (books) was produced. Mine had a third manual and was a bit heavier than the quoted 395 lbs, I believe. Note that theater manual identification differs. Lowest is Accompaniment, middle is Great, and uppermost is Solo. Probably Choir, Great, and Swell on a similar classical model. Two manual is Accomp & Solo vs. Great & Swell.
          Last edited by Kurzweil; 07-26-2018, 04:37 PM.
          Roland Atelier AT-90s, AT-80s, AT-70, 30, and 15. Roland VR-760 combo
          Yamaha S-90, Kurzweil PC-3x, Casio Privia PX-330, Roland E-80, G-70, BK-5, Leslie 760, 820
          Moved on:
          Allen 3MT/Hauptwerk, Technics GA1, Yamaha HX1, AR80, numerous Hammonds, including 2 M's, an L, 2 A-100's, XP-2, XM-1/1c, & an XK-3. Roland Atelier AT-30, 60r, 80, & 20r(2 units), and a slew of Leslies (147, 142, 760, 900, 330).
          Korg Triton Le-61, Casio Privia PX-310 & 110, and Kurzweils: PC-2x, SP-88, Pro-III, K1000

          Comment


          • Thanks, Kurzweil. I didn't know that. I think it's called accomp and solo on my Conn theater, too.

            Well, it's time to decide what capacitors I want to protect my tweeters.

            Looking at the horns, they are supposed to cover 800 - 20KHz. 2 x 8 in series = 16 ohms. The specs do not list a resonance point. 880 Hz is A5. A6 is 1760 Hz, and that's an octave up. Toodles said, in reference to the 6 db/octave first order crossover (two way), "You aim for another octave up." So that gets us up to A7, or 3520 Hz.

            Now for the phenolics, I have two in series in most of the speakers that use them, 2 x 8 = 16 ohms. Their resonant point is 1084 Hz. That is around C6. C8, for two octaves up, is about 4K.

            Using the handy calculator at

            http://apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

            For the horns, I get 16 ohms, 3420 hz and the bass speakers actually have a choke that I'm not going to change, but we need a bass side, so I'll use 10.3 ohms from the 4-bass.

            C1=2.9 mfd L1=.475 mh

            For the phenolics, 16 ohms, 4000 hz, 10.3 ohms again for bass.

            C1 = 2.5 mfd L1=.41

            So the plug in suggests 2.9 mfd for the horns and 2.5 mfd for the tweeters, and I won't change the choke.

            This speaker with the horns, by the way, is the only one that reads 16 ohms across the terminals.

            The next speakers to consider will be the sweet sixteens. They had a 60 mfd in the Allen crossover for ALL of them. Do I want to go with 60 mfd on both of them?
            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
            -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

            Comment


            • I am STILL not seeing the logic of having two sweet sixteen (mid-range and tweeter) speakers.

              Gyro/bass goes to flutes.
              Stationary speaker goes to reeds.
              Bass speaker and one sweet sixteen goes to diapasons.

              OK, where would one suggest I put the other sweet sixteen? (The stationary speaker is already significantly loaded with tweeters.)

              It looks to me that it can share with the gyro. Does that sound like a logical arrangement? (That would get all the flutes on the same side, though.)
              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
              -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

              Comment


              • Folks, some progress to report. All three amplifiers start up and produce (loud) static when the input cable is handled, including both A & B inputs on the first one.

                I've read that the output of the organ is high impedance and very low power. What might be a good match to send audio through to the speakers for testing? I tried a Walkman-type CD player, and didn't hear it through any of the amps.

                This organ was in a church until five or six years ago, so it may have gotten regular service from an Allen dealer - I don't know. It'll be great if the amps decide to just work.
                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                Comment


                • Lamar,

                  On mine I ran the organ outputs into my home stereo using the Line Ins ( Tape Ins, for us older folks ) for a little while after I sold the Gyros, but before selling the organ. That worked well enough, except no motion to the sound of course.

                  But mine was old enough that it did not have the photocell expression system - I'm pretty sure. Not sure if that will work with that system or not.
                  Regards, Larry

                  At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                  Comment


                  • Hi, Larry - Thanks. Actually, I'm working on the other end - trying to get audio from the speakers through the three amps that it has. I'm thinking that I'll need some high impedance source in order to test the amps and speakers without the organ. That *is* interesting about your stereo, though. I was thinking that if the organ really had high impedance and low signal (like a microphone), maybe I need an old turntable.
                    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                    -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                    Comment


                    • Yeah, that may be an idea to try. Do you still have a turntable around the place ? I have a few, but that wont help you of course.
                      Regards, Larry

                      At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                      Comment


                      • One that I can find, but - ha - it's USB/RCA. I think it has a preamp in it. Can't find any others. The thought occurs to me that headphones are pretty high impedance. I think I have a boom box I can sacrifice (if any surges back along the line).

                        Paranoia will destroy yuh.

                        ***

                        Loud sounds can destroy yuh, too.

                        Tried the turntable - WAY TOO LOUD - even with the amp gain all the way down. The sound level from the amp and a sweet sixteen was painful. (But it WAS musical.) So this amp input may be well below what I think of as line level, but the turntable apparently *is* the consumer concept of line level rather than the old fashioned, weak phono in. Anyway, it was just a desire to *hear* (and test) the speakers and amps. I've heard static from each of them and from each amp, so I know more now than I did going in today. (I may try the earphones out on the boom-box, just for the snitzy of it.)
                        Last edited by Silken Path; 07-27-2018, 03:48 PM.
                        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                        -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                        Comment


                        • Lamar,

                          The turntable you have must be a "modern" one. Those have the Phono amp and RIAA EQ circuit in them. They are designed for folks who want to play LPs right into a computer line in to digitize music.

                          A classic ( was going to say old, but... ) turntable does have a very low level output that was always routed into a receiver or preamp in your stereo system. Those always had a dedicated set of inputs for the Phono input, and they went though the RIAA EQ and a preamp stage.

                          I guess I am Classic too, because I don't have any "modern" turntables. I do have a very nice Bang and Olufsen linear tracking turntable that works very well yet. It too is now a Classic I suppose, but I still remember buying it brand new in the 70s.
                          Regards, Larry

                          At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                          Comment


                          • I bought my first Windows computer with a TV tuner in 2003, and that changed a lot for me - that and changing to CDs and Blu-Rays for entertainment. Yep - that's what the turntable was purchased for, and then it got promptly put up several years back and hasn't been used until yesterday. I haven't had a stereo receiver since my Sony went kaput in 2005 or so. Rich's in Atlanta had a wall of 13" compact Sony TVs - 54 of them, I think. I bought one of them, and it lasted for four years. No more Sony equipment for me.

                            Oh, well, it was just curiosity anyway. At least I know (1) all the amps work, (2) #3 is loud through a sweet sixteen, (3) the pot in the sweet sixteens is a just a tiny adjustment, and (4) I won't be testing this at night.

                            ***

                            Well, got the factory crossover installed on the right side - sweet sixteen mid/high on top connected to the pedals speaker on the bottom. The stationary speaker with horns is in the middle.

                            I have the wires that went from the other bass speaker to the gyro and will connect that to the Allen crossover in the gyro. I'll also connect the other sweet sixteen to the same crossover, and that will make up the right side.

                            A remaining question is what to hook the one 8-ohm amp up to. The stationary speaker actually reads 16-ohms at the terminals, so that's probably not it. (That's three parallel pairs of 8-ohm speakers in series.) The two crossovers read around 8-ohms.

                            I wonder what's different internally in these amps and if it's critical at the low levels I'll be running these amps.
                            Last edited by Silken Path; 07-27-2018, 11:53 PM.
                            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                            -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                            Comment


                            • A little progress - Here are a couple of images I found in a borrowed pocket guide that seem to apply to my organ.

                              This first one shows the end of the red cable that goes to the RMW, which I think stands for "Random Motion Whind." This is another clue, since these points will exist somewhere down in that terminal strip. Since there's no source of 12 VDC in the power supply, that must be coming from the Whind Generator and _is_ the keying (B+) for the organ. The other side says "Tremolo Control 14 VDC" so that's coming from the organ, ie, a stop.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              This next image is just general information, but it should be correct for this era of Allen organs. I do have red, green, black tape on three of the audio out cables, so this tells me which is which. I should now be able to look for RED wires going to the terminal strip from the organ side. That will be my connection to the Whind generator B+. I can also use this information to determine which speaker cables went to which amp and their destination (like mid-right, for example).

                              Click image for larger version

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                              So this is becoming clearer. I now can find some of the attachment points for the gyro control and Whind generator. Fortune passes everywhere. This is progress.
                              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                              -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61/88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                              Comment


                              • That CD player should have worked, although it was low impedance. Got a tape deck or even the audio outputs of a CD/DVD or VHS tape player? Those all put out line level audio at about 1 volt which should work. On the other hand, a pre-amplified turntable is essentially the same thing so all of the above may also prove too loud. I am surprised the Walkman didn't work. We usually end up using adapters and such to make such connections and I have more than once found my connection to be the problem. When the result is SILENCE, it is likely a no-signal-received situation since you proved with the turntable that the amps/speakers are working.
                                Roland Atelier AT-90s, AT-80s, AT-70, 30, and 15. Roland VR-760 combo
                                Yamaha S-90, Kurzweil PC-3x, Casio Privia PX-330, Roland E-80, G-70, BK-5, Leslie 760, 820
                                Moved on:
                                Allen 3MT/Hauptwerk, Technics GA1, Yamaha HX1, AR80, numerous Hammonds, including 2 M's, an L, 2 A-100's, XP-2, XM-1/1c, & an XK-3. Roland Atelier AT-30, 60r, 80, & 20r(2 units), and a slew of Leslies (147, 142, 760, 900, 330).
                                Korg Triton Le-61, Casio Privia PX-310 & 110, and Kurzweils: PC-2x, SP-88, Pro-III, K1000

                                Comment

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