Allen Bravura L451 - "antiphonal" options?

[Bruce.Simonson]

Greetings,

I am researching the antiphonal options for an Allen Bravura L451, and possible speaker options to accommodate this. I see there are antiphonal tabs on the console, and inside the casing near the amplifiers, there is reference to something related to an antiphonal option.

In my mind's ear, I imagine a set of speakers placed high in the back of the church, for special effects (thoughts of the "Heiliggeistloch" in St Stephan's in Passau come to mind).

I can't find anything in the Allen literature or documentation on this. Anybody know how to leverage this antiphonal option to maximum effect, or have suggestions?

The instrument has 16 channels, with appropriate HR-200s, HR-100s, and SR-5s.

Some questions that come to mind:

1) Does the antiphonal option require more Allen hardware, like another special amplifier? If so, where does it go?

2) What voices can be sent to the antiphonal speakers?

3) Are the antiphonal stops on some of the 16 channels, or are additional channels in play when the antiphonal option is implemented?

I'm very new to all of this, especially the digital and electronic side of things; I feel I am gaining a quick education by drinking from a fire hose.

This forum is a wonderful resource - thanks, all!

Bruce

[toodles]

In earlier Allen organs, such as the ADC and MDS models, the antiphonal organ provisions were merely relays which allowed an extra set of speakers to be switched on and off. A "main off" tab or set of tabs was also provided to switch the main speakers on and off.

I suspect the Bravura models approach this in the same way. If so, additional amplifiers are not required, but an additional set of 16 speakers would be required.

The relays for doing this were often optional and not always installed at the factory unless the model was ordered with them. Sometimes the antiphonal speakers were "all or nothing" and sometimes by division (i.e., Swell Antiphonal On, Swell Main off, etc.); the tabs on your organ will identify what Allen intended.

With bigger organs, such as this one, Allen may have provided for a smaller set of antiphonal speakers, in which case additional amplifiers might be needed if there is some mixing down to fewer channels.

What is the exact nomenclature on the antiphonal organ tabs? It should give you a clue as to what options might be available.

[jbird604]

Adding antiphonals to an Allen organ normally doesn't involve an extra amplifier, just a relay assembly that can switch the existing amplifier's outputs into a secondary set of speakers. In most models there are terminal strips in the floor of the organ which are "prepared" for the addition of the relays, so you may have seen a sticker near the terminal strips saying something about that.

The amps are usually capable of driving both the main speakers and the antiphonals at the same time, so you don't have to sacrifice the up-front sound in order to activate the antiphonals, though there is a dropping resistor in the relay, along with the added resistance in the long wiring run, generally resulting in the antiphonal speakers being somewhat softer than the mains.

Antiphonal speakers can be added to any particular division -- commonly the Swell or Solo division of an organ is equipped, so you can, with the flip of a tab, have that one division playing in a different part of the room from the rest of the organ. It's possible to have a complete antiphonal set of speakers, so that the entire organ, or any chosen combination of divisions, can be moved to the remote location. But it's usually more practical to just have the Swell or Solo set up that way, as it becomes costly to duplicate the entire set of main speakers with an entire set of antiphonals on a large organ.

Since you have 16 speakers in the main, you must have a doubled set, as the organ itself has only eight output channels, including a subwoofer channel. You may also have a so-called "reflections package" which involves two or four speakers mounted in the rear of the church that serve no purpose other than to radiate a calculated "ambiance" signal to make the room seem more lively or larger than it is.

But you could have a Swell antiphonal by simply adding a relay and two speakers for the rear, along with the necessary wiring runs. And, best I read the audio charts, your Solo division is actually just one channel, so you could have an antiphonal Solo with just one added speaker, along with the required relay and wiring.

TBH, and I'm a big Allen fan and used to sell them for a dealer, antiphonals are not always a great idea. I can see the value in having a Solo speaker in the back of the church so you can have a big Festival Trumpet blaring from back there when you want it. Or a Swell division back there, so you can play some ethereal strings as an echo organ. The Swell antiphonal can also come in handy to help provide some organ leadership for congregational singing in the back of the church, if the church is large and the nave is long and the main speakers don't serve that area well enough. So there are good uses for an antiphonal, but it may cost quite a lot of money to do it (if your wiring runs are long and complicated), and you have to find a suitable location for those rear speakers where people won't object. Folks who sit in the back may be there in part because they do NOT want to hear much organ, and they might be bothered when you switch on the antiphonals and put some organ sound right in their ears.

Even though Allen dealers are sometimes an expensive route to go, I'd recommend that you talk to the dealer who installed the organ if you are interested in pursuing this idea, unless you have some highly qualified people in the church who are up to the task of running cables, hanging or mounting speaker cabinets, and installing the relays. It COULD be a great idea that might add a lot of musical interest to the organ. Or it could be a very expensive project that would prove disappointing if not downright negative.

[Bruce.Simonson]

Greetings,

Thank you both (toodles and jbird604) for your thoughtful and comprehensive responses. Some additional details and questions based on your comments follow.

There are indeed tabs on the console, which allow each division to be assigned to the antiphonal speakers, in addition to where they are assigned to the main speaker set. It also appears that it is possible, through additional tabs, to shut off the main speakers that are in play with each division, so that the sound is thrown only to the antiphonal speakers - i.e., maximum flexibility is possible, with either or both sets of speakers in play for each division. Although I'm traveling at the moment, I have a cheesey photo of the manuals and console tabs in which the writing is barely legible, but I think you can make it out, if you assume what the writing must say (thanks for the suggestion, toodles).

Regarding the channels, yes, jbird609, what I think of as channels (and were described as such to me) are assigned in pairs (two "channels" are needed - one for "C" and one for "C#" - each of which has its own speaker). The great has 4 such pairs, the swell has 3 pairs, the solo and choir have 1 pair each. There's also some overlapping of channels to accommodate the pedals as well, but I can't remember the details without the documentation in front of me.

This antiphonal idea I have won't go as far as an entire additional speaker array - the church is too small for this (both dimensionally and financially). But I can see getting a pair of HR-100s and placing them in the high back rafters for the occasional antiphonal effect.

But I'm not sure how this will work - let's say I flip the swell to antiphonal tab on. The main set of speakers has three pairs associated with the swell - does the electronics somehow merge (fuse? meld? cram?) all of the sound destined for six speakers for the swell in the main array, to the two proposed speakers in the antiphonal set?

This seems to be what's going on when headphones are used - all the glorious sound destined for 16 separate speakers is somehow melded into the two speakers in the headphones. Do I have this right, or am I just kind of guessing, wildly and badly?

I'll try to attach photos of the tabs related to the antiphon (they are located on the right, above the solo manual). Sorry the photos are so bad - I didn't expect to use them for this.

Thanks again!

-Bruce

[jbird604]

No mixing of channels occurs when the antiphonals are engaged. The relays simply connect the rear speakers to the amplifiers, and the "main off" tabs will disconnect the amps from the front speakers. So in order to have a swell antiphonal, for example, that is a true mirror image of the swell main, you would need an exact copy of the swell speaker array.

But my guess is that your main speakers are "doubled" in the sense that each amplifier is feeding two speaker cabinets, just for the purpose of giving more volume and more clarity. It's not necessary to have a "doubled" set in the rear, unless you really want the antiphonal to sound just like the main.

All my information is based on what I see on the Allen technicians' website, but it could be partly wrong, as your organ may well have been customized to some extent, or may even have more channels than the stock L451. That's why I suggest asking your dealer about this, as he or she will (or should) know exactly how that organ is configured and what the possibilities are.

Keep in mind that adding antiphonals is a relatively expensive project that may not really pay off as much as you think. A better approach might even be to move the main speaker set of a single division, such as the Solo, to a different spot to give you the separation possibilities you want without adding new hardware to the organ.

[toodles]

The antiphonal and main speakers work just like a set of A/B speaker switches on a stereo.

You have to have a set of speakers for every audio channel in the antiphonal where sound is desired. So you need at least as many speakers as there are audio channels in the division where you'll have an antiphonal (swell, choir, great/pedal, or solo). If you use fewer speakers you won't get all the voices in the antiphonal. That might be OK, if, for example, you just want a few of the voices for antiphonal work, but it would follow whatever Allen designed into the channels--you won't get to choose what voices are in the group.

Any mixing for headphones is done independently of the main speaker amplifiers the mixed output will have an small two channel low power amp for the headphones different from the speaker amplifiers, if the organ provides for headphones.

[profeluisegarcia]

Hello¡ I would like your opinion about this situation:
a) We have a rectangular shaped church (60m x 25m)
b) we are going to install an 3 kboars Allen: positive/great/ swell (G-330)
c) the organ will have 8 cabinets: 4 for positive/great, and 4 for swell division

I was planning to locate the 4 for positive/great cabinets in the gallery (at the entrance) and the 4 swell cabinets near to the chancel (40 m. away) and facing to the entrance hoping to obtain surrounding effects, dynamic contrasts, balanced volume given the rectangular shape of the venue, singing support...but the experts I consulted said this was not a good idea. I still have my doubts. Any opinión?, please.
Thanks¡

[davidecasteel]

I am not an expert, by any means, but for support of the congregational singing I would suggest that the Great speakers be located near the front (Chancel) aimed at the seated congregation. Ideally, speakers for the Choir should probably be located where they can easily be heard by the vocal choir--since the same speakers are used for Great and Choir, this might be difficult if the choir is located in the balcony. Many people would also suggest that the Swell should speak from somewhere near the Great, but if the intention is to use it as a Solo Division, putting it in the Gallery might be an option.

Some attention should be given to where the console is to be placed. Traditionally, pipes and speakers have been located such that distance from the console is not excessive, so as to ameliorate the problems with delays in the sound perceived by the Organist.

As I said, I'm not an expert, so take my suggestions lightly. I'm sure others with more knowledge of how the voices in the organ are disposed will come on and have their own suggestions.

David

[jbird604]

I'd agree that this doesn't sound like a good idea. When I was an Allen salesman, we had an installation guide, and one of the most important rules was "The console, main speakers, and choir should all be in the same general area." In other words, if your choir loft is in the gallery the organ console and ALL the main speakers should be placed there. That means a complete set that speaks all the divisions. (Or, if your choir sits in the chancel area, the console and all the main speakers should be located at the front, placed so that the organist and choir can clearly hear all the channels directly.)

Why is this? Because the organ is an integrated instrument, and all its parts need to work together to produce a robust and unified sound. An organ no larger than the 330 needs all its channels working together to create such a sound, and separating the channels will yield a somewhat thin sound at each end of the church. If you were talking about a massive organ with 15 or 20 channels, you could have a special division created just for the other end of the church, but with a stock model, it all needs to hang together.

A church of that length (60 meters) probably does need some organ support in the end opposite the organ. This might be a good situation for antiphonal speakers. Even though I advised the original poster up above that antiphonals are an expensive option that may not yield much satisfaction, in the case of a church 60 meters long antiphonals could be very useful.

Due to the delay you will experience (it takes sound 180 milliseconds to travel 60 meters, and that is a LONG time musically speaking), you may not ever want to play the antiphonal speakers by themselves. In other words, they are going to SUPPLEMENT the main speakers and provide some clear and direct organ sound in the other end of the church, but will not constitute an alternative set of speakers. It would be very difficult for most organists to play when the sound is delayed by that much!

[profeluisegarcia]

John & David: ¡Muchas gracias! Thanks a lot¡¡
Luis

[Bruce.Simonson]

Hi Folks,

I like the directions this thread has taken, all interesting and relevant.

I'd like a quick clarification about Allen's antiphonal option (for L-451), for someone who knows:

Does Allen's antiphonal option allow for both the main speakers and the antiphonal speakers to be engaged at the same time, or only the main speakers or the antiphonal speakers at any given moment?

(i.e., M and A, M or A, or possibly M and/or A?)

I realize that each division needs a separate antiphonal speaker array, but if, for example, we have four speakers for the swell array, and four more speakers for the swell antiphonal array, will the Allen console (with its univrel relay) allow us to have all eight speakers (potentially) going at once?

Not sure we'll go the antiphonal route, but clarification on this will help inform the decision.

Cheers,
-Bruce

[jbird604]

You can have main speakers playing, or antiphonal speakers playing, or both at the same time. Allen's amplifiers are designed with output capability to drive even a doubled main speaker and a single antiphonal from the same output. But to drive three cabinets from one amp output you must use the Allen relay assembly, which provides attenuating resistors for the antiphonals. Otherwise, driving three cabinets from one amp would present an unacceptably low impedance to the amplifier.

You have a "Main Off" and an "Antiphonal On" for each division, at least on most large organs. A few smaller models don't let you choose just one division to throw to the antiphonals, but as big as your organ is you can certainly do it.

It's not uncommon at all for a large Allen to be installed so that only one division has antiphonal speakers. Often it's just the swell division, or perhaps the solo division on organs that have a separate solo division with its own amps and speakers.

If you want the great and pedal to always play up front only, you can simply connect those audio channels directly to the amplifier outputs rather than to the main terminals on the relays.

Most Allens are NOT shipped with antiphonal relays installed. Instead there is simply a terminal strip in the floor of the console for each pair of audio channels. Amplifier outputs are routed straight to these terminal strips, and speaker cables are connected there as well. When the customer wishes to add antiphonals to a given division, the terminal strip or strips for that division is replaced with a "univerel" assembly that is purchased from Allen organ parts. That assembly takes the place of the terminal strip and has connections for both the main speakers and the antiphonals.

So keep in mind that you can do this for any given division. However, you CANNOT use a given speaker in your antiphonal set for more than one audio channel. So if your swell occupies two audio channels, you must have at least two speakers dedicated to the swell stops in your antiphonal setup. If your solo division occupies only one channel, you can use a single speaker in the antiphonal set for the solo.

But what you cannot do is have only two speakers back there and use them for both the swell and the solo. I hope this makes sense. If you draw out the wiring diagram or look at the schematic provided by Allen, you can see what I'm talking about.