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  • Allen Organ keyboard types and options -- experiences?

    During a recent search for a used Allen to meet the needs of a customer, I looked into the types of keyboards found on Allen organs. This isn't "news" of course, as we've all known about these for some time. But the sake of discussion, I'll summarize... At the present time, there are two basic keyboards available on new Allens:

    • "Real" Allen keyboards, built in-house, now called "premium" keyboards. Wooden keysticks with plastic tops/fronts. Like fine piano keys, these are bushed at the balance rail and on the front guide rail with felt. There is an adjustable tension spring on each key, and each key can be individually leveled using the knurled nut under the front. The contact point is adjustable for each key with a screw at the rear. These keyboards are maybe 12" or so deep, with the contact pusher at the rear of the key, thus pushing "up" when the front is pushed down. Keying happens pretty much in plain sight for ease of troubleshooting and repair.



    • Outside-sourced keyboards from Fatar, now referred to as "standard" keyboards, though best I can tell there is not a single picture of this keyboard on the Allen website. Tension is provided by a large coiled spring at the rear of each key and is not adjustable. No obvious way to adjust leveling or dip, and no contact point adjustment. No felt bushings are used or needed in this design, as the keys ride on plastic or Teflon guides. The keys themselves are molded from a hard plastic. The keyframe could be plastic or metal; I haven't seen one to check it out. Each manual is only a tad over 6" deep, saving space in the console. Keying takes place under the keys, so troubleshooting and repair may require removing the action from the console and the contact pc board from the frame.


    The "premium" keys are of course currently available with either magnetic reed switches or with optical sensors (which are velocity sensitive). In the past these same keysticks had industrial leaf switches at the rear (all MOS organs and ADC organs before the final year or two of production). And before that, these same wooden keys were found in Allen analog organ keyboards, with the lifter at the rear actuating a crank arm that energized the oscillators via silver finger wires. Obviously these keyboards have a long and successful history.

    The Fatar keyboards of today evidently use rubber "button" contact strips (like you find on Kurzweil, Yamaha, Roland, and just about every other digital keyboard today). They are all velocity-sensitive. I can't tell you when Allen first used these, but I seem to remember that it was the entry-level "Chapel" series where they first appeared, just a few years ago.

    The wooden keys that Allen has built in their own factory and used in perhaps 75,000 organs have been widely acclaimed. And it's easy to see why. I can't think of any other mass producer of organs that has ever used such a complex and hand-crafted keyboard. Rodgers used to offer (and may still do so) wooden keys on premium organs, and they were very nice as well, though it don't think the keys were individually leveled, tension wasn't readily adjustable, and the contact point could be changed only by bending the wires, which were underneath the keys. So Allen's keyboards have been pretty unique.

    To be honest, I haven't always loved the Allen wooden keys. A number of years ago I played at a church with a big analog Rodgers that had the deluxe wooden keys, and I loved the feel of it. Could not fault it in any way. Then we traded it for an Allen digital, and I was frankly a little disappointed with the feel of the keys until I got used to it. Nowadays, with an Allen at home and one at church, I am perfectly comfortable with Allen keyboards and have no complaints about them at all.

    My only experience with the Fatar keyboards is on other brands of organs. When I look at the (very rare) pics of these keyboards on the Allen tech site, they appear to be exactly the same keyboards we see on most Johannus organs around here, all of which were installed between 10 and 20 years ago when we had a dealership. The feel on those Johannus organs can be a little flimsy or bouncy, and we occasionally hear a complaint about the noise and the flexing of the keyboards as you play. I don't know if Allen has done anything to ameliorate these faults when using Fatar keyboards in their own organs.

    Anyway, just throwing the topic out there for discussion. Has anyone actually seen and played an Allen with Fatar keyboards? Any observations or thoughts on this?
    John
    ----------
    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

  • #2
    The keyboards on the cheap Allen look like the Fatar TP8 standard. I know these keyboards because they were mounted on my first SL300 Ahlborn organs.
    They are keyboards without infamy and without praise.
    Viscount, uses custom TP8 keyboards, with different weights, and redesigned keys, with thicker ABS. In fact, it becomes a completely different keyboard. The feeling between TP8 standard and TP8 custom is completely different.
    Fatar also supplies on request the springs with different degrees of hardness, so you can choose the heaviness of the keyboards. This is because before my Physis organ, I had a Chorale 3, and the keyboards were too heavy (there were 100gr. springs).
    I contacted the Viscount and they gave me a set of 80gr. springs that I replaced.
    When I sold the Chorale, and bought the Physis, I ordered it with the Viscount AWK keyboards.
    These are made of wood, handbuilt, with felts, and a system of individually adjustable magnets for each key. You can adjust both the total weight of the key, and also the strength of the contact point, individually. They are built very well.

    Comment


    • #3
      As I noted above, pictures of the Fatar keyboards installed in an Allen are hard to come by. Unless I missed them, there seem to be NO pics of them on the Allen company (public) website. Several mentions of the superb quality of the "premium" keys, and even a video showing how they are made. But nothing at all about what is now the "standard" keyboard. Curious...

      On the tech site, there are instructions for removing the keyboards from the console so that the rubber contact strips can be serviced or replaced. The only photo I could find that even shows one of these is just an incidental shot of a rear inside view of a small organ. You can't see the whole keyboard assembly, just enough of the rear end of it that I am pretty sure it's the exact same unit as one we've worked on in a Johannus organ built about 2005. (In that case, the organist thought the keyboard was flexing too much and making some clunking noises. We beefed up the support at the back end and added some felt to the supports to make it feel sturdier and stop the clunking.)

      Maybe Allen doesn't talk much about the Fatar unit because they don't make it themselves. And they assume techs have seen plenty of these on other organs and have no questions about how to service them. Just a bit peculiar that they are now calling this the "standard" keyboard for Allen organs but saying little or nothing about them.

      To be honest, I'm not personally very concerned about this. To me, if the keys feel solid, not flimsy or sloppy, have adequate dip and resistance, and work reliably, I'm good with them. I do love the "elegance" of the genuine Allen traditional keys, and now and then I play a Rodgers or Viscount or other brand with what seem to be wonderful keyboards with silky smooth action and luxurious surfaces. But I can see Allen's point in providing these ordinary but quite serviceable keys on lower cost consoles, if it saves a great deal of money (as it may well do in this day of high costs for skilled labor).
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • #4
        John,

        The Fatar keyboards Allen uses are either the TP 8L or TP6LP. If memory serves me correct, they do not come with the tracker touch strips. I remember the first product Allen used these keyboards was in a theatre spinet model.

        The reason everyone and his brother uses Fatar keyboards in their organs is because of price. Especially the above mentioned models. I'm sure Allen had to swallow their pride in using Fatar keyboards, as they always used to mention they made such good keyboards themselves.

        Allen, for their high end custom keyboards sourced keyboards from Laukfuff. Very expensive, and I think they used their standard switching on them.

        The Fatar keyboards generally are nice to play, especially the TP 60 with wooden play surfaces. However the the contact strips as well as the tracker touch strips wear out. I have seen organs with keyboards less then 5 years old, with one or more strips having been replaced.

        Most manufacturers use Fatar as their default keyboards, for special or custom keyboards they use UHT keyboards. Hugely expensive though.

        AV

        Comment


        • #5
          This is a Fatar TP8 standard, as it seem in the Historique model:

          http://www.fatar.com/FOTO%20HIGH/TP-8L.jpg

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks to all of you for the info on these keys. The Fatar keys are exactly what I thought they were, and the contact strips appear to be the exact same ones we buy in large quantities for Kurzweil and certain other digital pianos. They can wear out pretty quickly under certain conditions -- heavy-handed overly-exuberant players who do certain musical styles that include lots of "licks."

            But I've known a set of these contacts to be still in fine playing condition even after 10 years or more of use by a more judicious player. I had a piano teacher client whose Kurzweil was 15 years old when she first noticed slight keying issues and needed a set of rubber contacts. It had been played several hours a day all those years, but with care and respect. So it's not a certainty that these contacts will wear out early on, though they might under the hands of certain players.

            BTW, I went out today to look at an Allen built in 2004, a low-end model in the Protege series. Going by the feature set, it was a low-priced model when new (only 7 pistons, one expression pedal, no console controller, internal audio only), so I expected to find Fatar keys. But it has the real wooden keys with reed switches. Maybe it was after 2004 when Allen began using Fatar at the low end? The owner still has the original sales ticket, and didn't pay a whole lot for it. Surprising, considering that you have to get up around $50K today to get wooden keys (I presume, from the on-line spec sheets).
            John
            ----------
            *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
              The Fatar keys are exactly what I thought they were, and the contact strips appear to be the exact same ones we buy in large quantities for Kurzweil and certain other digital pianos. They can wear out pretty quickly under certain conditions
              Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I’m pretty sure my Viscount uses Fatar keys. I think they feel pretty decent for plastic keys, but it’s 25+ years old. Should I be expecting them to start having issues? Is the repair difficult?
              Viscount C400 3-manual
              8 channels + 2 reverb channels (w/ Lexicon MX200)
              Klipsch RSX-3 speakers and Klipsch Ultra 5.1 subwoofers

              Comment


              • #8
                I have found Fatar keyboards to be the spawn of Satan. Replacing the contact strips requires so much disassembly that the organ resembles a Hummer demolished by an IED. Those that use the added "tracker touch" (collapsing bubble) strips can develop a really prominent and annoying snapping sound when one or more of the bubbles tears and does not collapse evenly, although to be fair I have encountered very few of these specimens so far.

                My colleagues above are absolutely correct that the use of Fatar in Allen or any other brand is 100% a cost-driven decision.

                Yes, Viscount's version of the Fatar is a little better--they feature a slight texture on the keys and a fake ivory-overlay joint line on the whites, as if any one would be fooled by such a trick!

                Comment


                • #9
                  RjSilva,

                  I believe you mentioned your instrument was a Viscount C-400. I'm not sure what kind of switching was in those keyboards. I do think they were Fatar items.

                  According to the schematics they used single contacts, and my guess is that they are of the rubber dome type. If so, and the organ gets played regularly, then likely you will encounter problems sooner rather than later.

                  If a note starts to go wonky, you will soon find out that there are no replacement strips to be found. Fatar apparently lost the mold to make the strips, and now replacements are all long gone.

                  There is a slight chance that the key switching is of the coil spring over a buss bar affair. If the organ was played a lot, likely you would have some intermittant notes. The contacts can be cleaned, but is usually not a long term solution.

                  AV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by arie v View Post
                    RjSilva,

                    I believe you mentioned your instrument was a Viscount C-400.
                    ...
                    According to the schematics they used single contacts, and my guess is that they are of the rubber dome type. If so, and the organ gets played regularly, then likely you will encounter problems sooner rather than later...
                    I have seen rubber domes when I’ve replaced a broken key and also reglued some pieces that came loose.

                    So if it develops problems is the only solution to replace the keyboards? Would it be complicated to work in another type of keyboard?
                    Viscount C400 3-manual
                    8 channels + 2 reverb channels (w/ Lexicon MX200)
                    Klipsch RSX-3 speakers and Klipsch Ultra 5.1 subwoofers

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I wouldn't worry about it. Even if the original contacts are NLA, should you have a bad one there are things you can do. In a pinch I have taken out a strip and used silicone glue to repair it after a fashion. Not a pretty thing, but you can make it work.

                      Also, if the failed contact is in the middle of the keyboard, you can probably swap it to a place in the highest or lowest octave of the manual you use the least often, where it might never even be played under normal circumstances. At least that works for some people.

                      Finally, even though the exact same bubble is not made any more by Fatar, there are similarities among many of the silicone contacts, and you might find a tech who has a stash of assorted contact strips salvaged from old digital pianos and keyboards and such that have come through his shop. He might have something that would work, or at least be acceptable to use in the highest or lowest octave somewhere.

                      But I just wouldn't borrow trouble from tomorrow. There are a lot of Viscount organs out there from the same era as yours, and we aren't seeing contact failures here. And eventually some of those old organs will become parts sources when they get retired for various reasons.
                      John
                      ----------
                      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        When did the TP8 come about? Looks similar to a Casio keyboard I had as a child back in the 90s
                        Allen MOS 1105 (1982)
                        Allen ADC 5000 (1985) w/ MDS Expander II (drawer unit)
                        Henry Reinich Pipe 2m/29ranks (1908)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There are different models of TP8.

                          http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_8PIANO.htm
                          http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_8S.htm
                          http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_8HO.htm

                          Generally, this is used for liturgical organs:
                          http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_8L.htm

                          There are custom versions, the KT8SW model is designed for Hoffrichter:

                          http://www.hoffrichter-kirchenorgel....laviaturen.htm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
                            On the tech site, there are instructions for removing the /allen-Fatar/ keyboards from the console .
                            Hello¡

                            Could you please indicate me the link to get these instructions? I did not find them in Allan official webpage.

                            Thanks,

                            Luis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              They are on the private tech site which cannot be viewed by the general public. Simple instructions though. Basically you just take the keyboards out of the console, lay them upside down, and remove the contact pc boards. The rubber strips are stuck to the boards and will pull loose with a tug.
                              John
                              ----------
                              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                              Comment

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