Church Going Organ Shopping!

[Vercus]

Hello,</P>


The church that I grew up in has an Allen MOS-1 series organ, and it's failing. So, we've setup an organ committee to begin the process of getting a replacement. Tonight was our first meeting. My father is the head of the committee, and the two of us are the chief technical advisors.</P>


We're going to be looking for a 3 or 4 manual with between 70-80 stops, and hoping to get it for between $100,000 - $130,000. So far, the main companies we're interested in checking out are Allen, Walker, and Johannus. Ourlocation of East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania puts uswithin an hour of the headquarters of both Allen and Walker, so that could mean an advantage for them. </P>


Johannus is of course based out of Holland, so no one in US lives close to them! We'd have to figure out how it would work dealing with a dealer/representative. However, we are going to check out a church with a Johannus Rembreandt organ in New Jersey. I haven't heard a Johannus yet, other than internet clips, so I would be curious to hear what it sounds like. I also haven't heard a Walker, but have heard good things about them.</P>


I'm going to be the principal researcher for this operation, so any input you can provide would be helpful. If anyone here lives close to us and has a late model electronic organ you'd be willing to let us hear, I can see if the committee would be interested. Preference would be given to the three above mentioned companies, but I would be interested if there are any others we should check out? I have also heard Phoenix mentioned, but am not familiar with them.</P>


-Jon</P>


EDIT: Here is a link to my presentation for the meeting. I'd be curious to see what you guys think: http://www.jonstrack.com/files/organ.doc</P>


Thanks!</P>

[clumber]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Okay, Radagast and probably four or five others are probably tired of hearing this from me but take the time to research all your options. and especially Phoenix.... can you drive up Rt 81 to Binghamton to hear our Phoenix? They will do a beautiful job with a custom instrument for you, designed for you, and will be far better than those mass produced manufacturers. I can get you into our church anytime you want (well, Sunday mornings are probably out!) to hear a Phoenix in a small church setting. Yours sounds like a slightly bigger space, but check out the install in New Orleans. Phoenix is just up in Ontario, and they do a great job with working with you creating a custom instrument at a decent price....

In any case, good luck in your search!!! </p>

Andy</p>

[arie v]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Jon,</p>

Do check out Walker. Their samples combined with superior audio, have given them a huge lead when it comes to doing digital augmentation of pipe organs. They have a new CD out of an organ placed in New Jersey, and it sounds absolutely superb. Part of the Walker superiority stems from the fact that the samples are recorded at something around 100K, and then they try to maintain high frequency content right through to the speaker. So the tone seems to have a much more visceral quality to it. Most digi organs do not put out much of anything beyond 12 to 15KKhz, and you can hear it. The treble is just lifeless sounding. Walker is not inexpensive, but you may find that they can do something within your budget. Walker builds using pipe organ type console appointments, and does not build organs with only 2 or even 4 audio channels. Their minimum standards are just higher than others. They are doing extremely well, and are growing, which is not something that can be said of many organ companies these days.</p>

For the absolute best, there is always Marshall &amp; Ogletree.............but the price of admission may shock you.</p>

Arie V.
</p>

</p>

</p>

[dhm]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



I would definitely second what Andy said about Phoenix.
They are way ahead of anything the major American and European mass-producers can do. Everything is custom-built to your specification and, if their prices in the US are anything like here in the UK, you will be pleasantly surprised at the value for money.
I can't comment on Walker as I have very little experience of their work.</P>


Best wishes in your search.</P>


Douglas.</P>

[clumber]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Jon,</p>

Your document looks fine. You don't say what your space is like, but with as big an instrument as you mentioned, I'm guessing it's fairly good sized. You don't say what time frame you are looking at. If you need it soon, you may be forced to go with mass produced. If you can wait a bit, then custom may be better, and may actually save you some money. In any case, it will be built with your space and style of music in mind. Walker, M&amp;O and Phoenix are all in the custom building business, and you probably can't go wrong with any of them. You should also stop to think about what you want the instrument for. Is it strictly for worship, or are you looking to have the occasional concert? Are you looking to add some pipes to it now or in the future? I think most of the builders can do hybrid designs of digital and pipes. </p>

The "service department" may be a strawman that you want to think about a bit. While the 70's and 80's era instruments had lots of custom boards and odd components, the newer digital instruments are pretty simple. A ton of memory with digital samples stored in them, controller cards, and audio cards and amps. Those are custom boards, but still pretty simple electronics.I don't know what Walker or M&amp;O use for amps, but Phoenix uses professional grade commercial amps that you can buy if you ever need to. If you have a favorite brand, they'll probably use that if you ask them to. You'll need a commercial surge supressor no matter who you buy from, so plan on a little bit of money for that. Your manufacturer will help you spec out what is needed.</p>


You should think about what the console construction you would like. Do you have a custom color that you need in your church? How about special woodwork or keyboard materials? Lot's of things to think about with those types of issues.
</p>

Oh, one additional thought came to me... listen to what the builders tell you with respect to improving your church acoustics. This may be a good time to do a project or two to make the space better. We removed some carpeting and expanded our choir loft as a part of our project. Our space is much better now. Also, don't force builder A to match what builder B says with respect to the install. For instance, one may say your speakers would be best if they were located "here" whereas another will say they should go "there". Respect their knowledge of what is best. They've done this a few times before!

Andy</p>

[Vercus]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Hello,</P>


It is a large space, seating between 400-500, with a balcony. It has two large chambers up front- one on each side, with openings toward the front, and toward the altar on the side. There is also an antiphonal, but the current speaker positioning is not ideal, and can be unpleasantly loud for the people on the balcony.</P>


I don't think M&amp;O are going to be in our price range. When I was filling out their questionaire, the budget question started at $250K, so that's out of the question. I don't know about Walker yet. I'm going to call them, and hopefully come down to talk to them. I would definetly prefer to go with one of the custom guys, as I think they will be able to accomodate some of our unique requirements better, as well as offer a better instrument.</P>


I would like to see clumber's Phoenix in New York.I'll have to talk with my Dadand see whathe thinks about getting the committee to make the trip. I'll keep you guys updated. </P>

[clumber]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Jon,</p>

Our space seats 150 to 170, so in some sense it'll be apples and oranges, but I know some of the installs up around Toronto are big churches and would be good comparisons. Walker and Phoenix both produce fine instruments.</p>

In some sense, you are always comparing apples and oranges in this, as you will not get to hear the instrument in your space until it is in your space, and what you have (your space) is important in the sound quality. We think we did pretty good with our instrument (see here for the story of our search) and feel we got a great product at a price we could afford. It's two years on since Don and Jim Anderson installed it, and we've had no trouble with it at all. Find a builder you trust and who will work with you and that you can afford and you'll be happy.

Oh and make sure your committee has some people who can sing along with the instruments you "field test" to get a sense of the instrument as it accompanies your choir.</p>

And if that isn't enough to get you up here, there's a Lutheran church in Vestal, NY that just put in a Walker and they're having their dedicatory concert on April 15th at 2:00, so you can hear that and the Phoenix in one trip. They had more money to work with than we did, and I think a little bigger space, but it'll be a fun time, I'm sure. Listen to that one, then come to the Phoenix in Chenango Bridge. Two birds with one stone!
</p>

Andy
</p>

[Vercus]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Clumber,</P>


Thanks for the invitation, as well as mentioning the Lutheran Church. Visiting both churches sounds like a good plan to me, if they are also willing. It would make for a good trip. I am going to discuss it with my Dad. I got an e-mail from a local representative of Phoenix organs. Apparently he also reads organ forum, as he saw my post here. They are close by, so that's a plus. I think I'm going to be in further contact with him and with Phoenix organs, as well as Walker.</P>


Thanks!</P>


-Jon</P>

[clumber]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Well the Lutheran dedication is an open invitation to the public, being played by Richard Van Auken, so there's no problem getting in to the dedication. I'm sure Mr. Van Auken will do a good job. There may not be a chance for you to sit and play the instrument, however, as the local AGO people will probably be there and all want a turn on a new instrument, but it will be a chance to hear it played.

As I have stressed a number of places on these fora, it is important to take your time, hear as many instruments as you can, get a sense of the builders, their passion and style and have confidence in them. This is a purchase, but it's also a long term relationship. I know one place we went where the pastor had put Allens in the last 3 churches he worked in. He had confidence in their ability to deliver. Unfortunately he failed to really do a good thorough search, so didn't have any knowledge of any other possibilies than Allen. Also as I've said other parts of the fora, this is your money and your parent's money and your friends money and your church's money. Don't be in a hurry to spend it. Due diligence should be the watchwords!
</p>

Andy
</p>

[MarkS]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!

Arie,<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I find your comments about high frequencies interesting.  Folks at a brand specific organ forum went after me for suggesting that digital organs don't have the high frequencies of pipe organs.  One member in his 80's (!) told me that I needed my hearing checked!!  It seems odd that I can hear the high frequencies in a Casavant but not in a digital organ by R------.</DIV>

[arie v]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Mark,</p>

What you say doesn't surprise me. Generally brand "R" types prefer schmaltzy sounds (as well as General MIDI sounds) over authentic pipe sounds.</p>

The fact is that pipe tone is stochastic and has as well an extended harmonic train. This means that there is a lot of randomness in the high frequency harmonic and enharmonic part of the sonic spectrum. All one has to do is listen to small pipes at close proximity to hear this.</p>

Most electronic organs these days are of the sample playback variety. Some do not even have full WAV files, but rather some kind of compressed files. Compression generally means limited frequency bandwidth. If say the sample rate is 44Khz, the absolute top frequency will be 22Khz. Compressed files generally also have less high frequency content. But generally microphones (unless they are very expensive) don't record much above 16-18 Khz. So the samples are already somewhat truncated. Then the various systems out there require anit-aliasing filters, and other filtering of some kind. All of a sudden, this fabulous digital system doesn't really put out much above 15 Khz. Then there are various audio mixer components, audio amplifiers (which are frequency limited), and speakers, and they all generally further degrade what is left of the high frequency spectrum. Speakers tend to sound like they have treble on axis, but off axis they can sound very muted. So compared to real pipes in the treble end, electronic simulation sounds dried out, softer, basically not much more than the fundamental harmonic. Also the fact that a single audio channel is asked to play up to a dozen equivalent pipes through just a little tweeter, and you realize that electronic organs in general do not sound like the real thing. </p>

If you listen to recordings of electronic organs, they generally sound not real in the top end. Not enough sparkle. </p>

At the other end, the bottom end is also a problem. While low frequencies are easy enough to generate, for a long time manufacturers truncated the attack transients - so 16' and 32' stops tended to come on with a sudden burp. With memory becoming cheaper, and faster processing, the low end has improved. Still it is hard to find speakers that are flat below about 30 Hz. A lot of subs I have seen on digi organs, cannot do much below about 25 Hz - so the bottom of the 32' Bourdon general does not sound very real at all.</p>

Good digital simulators need lots of audio channels, lots of good amplification and really good speakers in order to have a hope of sounding real. Most come far short in the audio department, simply because very few churches and individuals are willing to spend money on this aspect of the instrument. It is like buying a pipe organ, but not enough pipes.</p>

I tried for 27 years to figure how to build an electronic organ that would fool my ears. I'm still dreaming about doing it someday.</p>

AV</p>



</p>

[MarkS]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!

Arie,<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Thanks for the explanation.  I was surprised at the lack of high frequencies in a single note played on a single stop.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Do the non-sampled organs have more high frequency content?  I remember an advertisement for Eminent many years ago boasting a 62 Khz sampling rate.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The most realistic electronic organ I've played was a large "PDI" organ.  I could have sworn it was an old Moeller in a chamber.  (They call them "Impacted Moellers" around here.) </DIV>

[radagast]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!

[quote user="clumber"]


Okay, Radagast and probably four or five others are probably tired of hearing this from me but take the time to research all your options. and especially Phoenix.... can you drive up Rt 81 to Binghamton to hear our Phoenix? creating a custom instrument at a decent price....

In any case, good luck in your search!!! </P>


Andy</P>


[/quote]</P>


No, I am NOT tired of hearing you or ANYONE else sing the praises of Phoenix organs. They seem to be well built, sound very good, and are very price competitive.</P>


I agree that they should research all their options.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


Arie said:</P>


&gt;&gt;&gt;Do check out Walker. Their samples combined with superior audio, have given them a huge lead when it comes to doing digital augmentation of pipe organs. They have a new CD out of an organ placed in New Jersey, and it sounds absolutely superb.&lt;&lt;&lt;</P>


Every recording of Walker classical organs sounded real good. I would check to see what kind of service you can get from them.</P>


Bill</P>

[radagast]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!

[quote user="MarkS"]Arie,
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for the explanation. I was surprised at the lack of high frequencies in a single note played on a single stop.</DIV>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>Do the non-sampled organs have more high frequency content? I remember an advertisement for Eminent many years ago boasting a 62 Khz sampling rate.</DIV>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>The most realistic electronic organ I've played was a large "PDI" organ. I could have sworn it was an old Moeller in a chamber. (They call them "Impacted Moellers" around here.)</DIV>


[/quote]</P>


Mark,</P>


You confuse me. Before this you said:</P>


&gt;&gt;I find your comments about high frequencies interesting. Folks at a brand specific organ forum went after me for suggesting that digital organs don't have the high frequencies of pipe organs. One member in his 80's (!) told me that I needed my hearing checked!! It seems odd that I can hear the high frequencies in a Casavant but not in a digital organ by R------.&lt;&lt;</P>


PDI organs are Rodgers. I think Rodgers' current TM organs are intersting because you can specify everything including the stoplists. Rodgers does charge a hefty premium for moving drawknobs.</P>


Jon, if you like the sound of Phoenix better, don't get a Rodgers.</P>


Rodgers is owned by Roland. For many years Roland's sample playback technology used a system that compressed the samples. Personally I think there were artifacts that reduced the sound quality. It sounded like the high end had phase distortion. I am pretty sure that Rodgers' early digital organs used Roland's technology, because there was something that did not sound right. I have no idea if Rodgers' current technology compresses the samples or not. </P>


Allen recently introduced an audio enhancement called "Audio Interlacing". It is supposed to add more audio channels to increase the realism. I wouldsee if you can get a good demonstration of it from an Allen dealer, but don't fall for sales hype. If you can hear a difference, fine. If you can't you can't.</P>


Marshall &amp; Ogletree is the best. I am continually astounded by how great their organs sound. This year is proabably going to be a busy one for them, so there might be a wait. Walker sounds great too. I'll have to check out the new CD.</P>


Bill</P>

[Vercus]

Re: Church Going Organ Shopping!



Hello,</p>

Thanks for all the advice everyone, this has been very helpful! Radagast, where did you find recordings of Walker organs? All I fund is there website that just has a front page, and nothing else.</p>

I would be interested in hearing some recordings of their organs. I see in Arie's comment that they have a CD of an organ in New Jersey. Perhaps I'll have to call them tomorrow and see if I can get that CD, as well as see and play the organ.</p>

-Jon</p>