My New (to me) Allen ADC-8000DKC

[myorgan]

Folks,

I just returned last week from a 3,300 mile trip one way (not counting the air travel) to pick up my new (to me) Allen ADC-8000DKC. I added 4 states to my bucket list (want to see all 50 before I go), spent the night in the cab of the *-Haul because accommodations were sparse in a couple of the states, the *-Haul mirror glass fell off due to a pothole in Pennsylvania, and Siri tried to take me onto something like Bear Paw Creek Road (dirt) over the top of a mountain in Colorado–I turned back–no place for a truck towing a trailer. Needless to say, it was an adventure!

Yesterday (or the day before?) we put the organ on the unfinished platform I made so it could be placed in storage. The day before, I FINALLY received the trusses for my garage (1 month late), so I have to wait until the garage is waterproofed before I bring the organ out of storage and into use.

Disappointments? I am a bit disappointed at the theatre specification customized on the choir manual. On the other hand, I want to hear it before I make too many judgments. I do know where there is another ADC-8000DKC, and maybe I can convince the person to switch chips with me for the Choir TG cards. Other than that–no disappointments!

What am I looking forward to?

• I am looking forward to finally having my 32' Pedal Reed! (see photo below).
• I've never worked with an amplifier rack or coaxial cable before, but I'm sure it'll work out.
• I'm so looking forward to having separate expression pedals for all the manuals, rather than just the Swell being independent.
• I know everything works, because I've seen videos of the organ working before it was disconnected.
• I'm looking forward to restoring the organ from 9 channels to the original 13 channels.
• I'm looking forward to adding MIDI to the organ, as it has a blank drawknob on every manual (except the Choir).
• I'm looking forward to adding the sub-bass crossover and hearing the 2 HC-40 speakers I already have for it.
• Only one (1) speaker needs to be re-coned, but the rest are HC-12 and HC-14 speakers in great condition–all with accordion surrounds, so they won't go bad again.
• I'm looking forward to having a full Diapason AND Principal Chorus on the Great.
• I'm looking forward to hearing it in my new 24'x32' garage with 20' ceilings (when it gets done). No cars in that garage. Maybe by Christmas.
• I'm looking forward to being able to practice and perform organ duets, trios, or quartets with other organists on their own organ. That's assuming I can find that many who can play near me.

Of course, the deal with my wife was that I would sell an organ if I ever got another, but we'll see. She may like it.:-)

The ordeal of getting the organ, however, had no end of frustrations. I advertised it on *ship at least 3 times with no takers for shipping. So I turned to the Forum, and received recommendations here. I followed up on all recommendations and received only 1 quote less than $3,000-$4,000 for the shipping, so I went with it. Then he told me he was having route troubles in Colorado and the shipping would be delayed by a month. Then he was having truck troubles for a month. That's not to mention the several e-mails, calls, and/or texts, to which, the driver never responded. So, I made arrangements to pick up the organ myself, and did so about 1¹/₂ weeks ago.

Guess what, Sunday after pickup I received an e-mail telling me he'd pick up the organ on Monday–would I pay the entire shipping amount before pickup via *ayPal? I responded there was no need because I'd already picked up the organ. The driver had the temerity to chastise me because I hadn't notified him. The last e-mail I sent him stated that I hadn't heard from him since ca. July 10^th when he told me he'd pick it up the end of July. It would have been nice had he contacted me to let me know he'd be picking it up the middle of August (but I wouldn't have believed him)!

So, the saga of organ shipping is now over. I just wanted to share my experiences for those trying to find shipping for an organ. It is an expensive endeavor, and in my case, would have been more than the price of the organ, had I chosen to do so. It was still cheaper to do it myself–including airfare and gas. So far, Washington is the only corner of the United States, to which I haven't travelled to pick up an organ. Who knows?!!!

So, with all the trials and tribulations of the past 6-8 months (with extra storage fees), I now have an organ to use with the Symphony for any performance they should ever need. I hope to use it for a performance this Fall as a trial period.

Sorry to bend y'all's ears, but hopefully my experiences will help others considering a long-distance organ purchase make that decision in a realistic manner. Fortunately, I knew what I was in for, and was prepared, but others may not be.

Hope it helps.

Michael

[jbird604]

It's amazing what a guy will go through for a 32' reed! I'm glad you made it safely. Sounds like a truly harrowing experience, and points up just how difficult it can be to relocate a large organ. There is a reason why big organs cost so much money and are installed so rarely these days!

Your experience also points up why Hauptwerk and other VPO systems are so popular. But having a genuine TON of organ hardware has a value in it that can't be duplicated by a software organ, and you will do doubt take a TON of pleasure in owning this mighty beast, of which there are only a handful in existence.

Too bad about the alterations that were made to the choir spec. The only consolation is that Allen would not have built an organ that didn't sound good, so you will surely find that the voices are nice, even though they may have a flavor you don't care for. I suspect that you can ameliorate a lot of the theater-ish-ness by adjusting the voicing controls. And there is such a vast resource of genuine classical tone throughout the organ, you may not miss the few stops that were sacrificed to add these non-standard voices.

I've only seen one 8000, and it was indeed an impressive organ in every way. You will surely spend many hours or even days tinkering with the large array of voicing controls, and your work will be rewarded with rich and exciting sound. I only wish I lived closer so I could get my hands on it too!

Good luck!

[Silken Path]

It has a back rest. Is that to keep you from falling off backwards from exhaustion from pulling on all those knobs?

Seriously, congratulations, Michael. Your's is bigger.

[Larrytow]

Michael,

Congratulations from me as well, on the successful acquisition of a very impressive organ ! I'm glad your road trip went fairly well and only had a few issues. I think that any road trip to pick up ( or deliver ) a cool organ is fun and not just a job, no matter if one encounters some problems along the way.

Your saga of the organ shipper is interesting, but sad too. So many people in the various sectors of the trucking biz forget that the most important part of running a trucking service is the SERVICE part. Good timely communications are of course an integral component of that. He deserves to loose the job !

My ADC-6000 has the same backrest on the bench. I think it is the neatest one I have ever seen. Way nicer than the usual hunk of 2'X4' you usually see !

[myorgan]

It's amazing what a guy will go through for a 32' reed! I'm glad you made it safely. Sounds like a truly harrowing experience, and points up just how difficult it can be to relocate a large organ. There is a reason why big organs cost so much money and are installed so rarely these days!
[snip]
Too bad about the alterations that were made to the choir spec. The only consolation is that Allen would not have built an organ that didn't sound good, so you will surely find that the voices are nice, even though they may have a flavor you don't care for. I suspect that you can ameliorate a lot of the theater-ish-ness by adjusting the voicing controls. And there is such a vast resource of genuine classical tone throughout the organ, you may not miss the few stops that were sacrificed to add these non-standard voices.

I suspect you're right about the voicing of the Choir, and I am so glad to FINALLY have the 32' Reed! Allen didn't make no junk. My only regret is that I didn't have enough to get the ADC-8350 in MA when it was available.

I only wish I lived closer so I could get my hands on it too!

You can get your hands on it–just come to visit. You know where I live!

It has a back rest. Is that to keep you from falling off backwards from exhaustion from pulling on all those knobs?

It was a plus that the bench has a backrest. With my back troubles, it is certainly a blessing! I can't recall how many Symphony concerts I've sat through to only play for 1-2 movements. The backrest will certainly come in handy!

Your saga of the organ shipper is interesting, but sad too. So many people in the various sectors of the trucking biz forget that the most important part of running a trucking service is the SERVICE part. Good timely communications are of course an integral component of that. He deserves to loose the job!

AMEN!!! I guess because organists are generally in the business of serving others, we assume others have the same mindset, however, I've discovered that definitely isn't true.

My ADC-6000 has the same backrest on the bench. I think it is the neatest one I have ever seen. Way nicer than the usual hunk of 2'X4' you usually see !

I don't recall which builder uses the 2"x4" lumber, but I have wondered about that. I like that the backrest is longer, but they could have done more design.

Thanks, all for the well-wishes.

Michael

[Piperdane]

Congratulations on your, new to you, ADC8000.

I had the good fortune to play one of these for 3 years in a large Catholic parish - the organ had a full antiphonal as well. The building sat 950 and was designed for music and had excellent acoustics.

I truly enjoyed every moment playing that particular organ ... and I'm sure you will, too.

[Hamman]

Congratulations Michael! Wow what a wonderful looking console AND stop list. Now the work begins!! I too have been hoping to find the big brother to my ADC 5300....but usually they are popping up way, way back east making it cost prohibitive for me to get.
Have fun!

[michaelhoddy]

Disappointments? I am a bit disappointed at the theatre specification customized on the choir manual. On the other hand, I want to hear it before I make too many judgments. I do know where there is another ADC-8000DKC, and maybe I can convince the person to switch chips with me for the Choir TG cards. Other than that–no disappointments!

I'm curious your impressions of this voicing. I think based on my ADC-8000 experience, the only Choir stops from the classical voicing that I'd truly miss were the articulate 8' and 4' flutes.

Also interesting that MIDI is on knobs on your organ. On the one I used to play, it was on the coupler rail for each division.

[myorgan]

I'm curious your impressions of this voicing. I think based on my ADC-8000 experience, the only Choir stops from the classical voicing that I'd truly miss were the articulate 8' and 4' flutes.

Also interesting that MIDI is on knobs on your organ. On the one I used to play, it was on the coupler rail for each division.

Sorry, Michael. I must've been confusing in my post. I plan to add MIDI to the organ once I get it finally in my new garage.

Michael

[jbird604]

I'm not a stickler for classical sounds, and not a player of organ literature, so I can't speak to how these stop changes might impact your playing. The only ones that sound concerning to me are the exchange of the flutes for tibias. Of course "tibia" can mean different things to different builders, but when I think of tibias I think of relatively heavy, thick flutes, rather than the light and airy, chiffy, lilting sounds of my favorite classical flute stops. I hope the tibias won't be hopelessly thick and dull, and that you will be able to get a little life out of them by cutting the bass and boosting the treble on the TG board that contains them.

[samibe]

Congratulations. I'm glad you figured out getying it moved. It looks like a lot of fun. I'm really looking forward to pictures and audio after you get it set up and adjusted.

[74corvette]

Congratulations Michael !
Beautiful Organ, and quite an adventure to get her home. Your type of adventure is one of the reasons I decided
to drive to Dayton to pick up my 705D. Yet, it still was an adventure, not like yours but yet a adventure expedition. Someday we will meet and I will share it with you.....we both can have a laugh.

74corvette
Paul

[myorgan]

Well,

The ADC-8000-DKC is now out of storage and in my garage on a temporary platform I need to finish. The 505-B is hogging the other half right now, so it might be a bit. Trying to empty one of the storage units before the new year (good help's hard to find!).

So, I took photos of the innards of the organ and discovered some disconcerting things. I do wish someone had access to Allen's records so I could know what the original installation included (see below)! The first observation is the inside of the console is rather sparse when compared to my other Allens. Then I remembered, that's because they used an external amplifier rack.

First question: If I were to use 3 ADC Quad amplifiers, would they provide as much power as the single S-100s that came with the organ on a full rack? I'm hoping to restore the organ to 13 channels rather than 9 (see below). I believe I have enough multi-channel ADC amplifiers to use on a smaller amplifier rack, but I'm not sure of the output. My organ may have come with some D-40 amplifiers, but only one was included.

So, the first photo I took showed where the Trem-III units are (used to be?) located for the Great & Choir divisions. It looks like a factory bypass, or a factory preparation, but the dents make me wonder if they were removed at some time. Both divisions have a Vibrato drawknob, but absolutely nothing to Vibrato with! One can see in the 4^th photo where the Swell Trem-III units are still intact (but working?). In the demo of the instrument provided by the seller, the pianist proudly shows the effect produced by the Salicional+Voix Celeste+Vibrato (Michael smacks head)! "Isn't that a glorious sound?" I heard the Celeste sound, but absolutely NO VIBRATO! That should have been a tip off the dealer had absolutely no clue about the organ he was selling!

In the next couple of photos, the dealer proudly shows how they made a 13-channel instrument and made it speak through only 9 channels! The last photo shows where an antiphonal relay is missing for the Pedal and part of the Great. I'm probably not going to use any antiphonal channels, but I would rather have had the choice.

Second question: There is a thread about using Y-splitters here on the Forum. Is there any danger with running the organ through Y-splitters through the reduced channels temporarily while I get something else arranged (i.e. ADC amplifiers)?

My tipoff for this issue should have been when I picked up the organ with only the technician in attendance. I expected to receive all the HC speakers in the storage unit, but the tech told me that "No, the dealer would like to use those in another installation." I should have walked out there, but the sale had already been completed for 6-8 months prior (waiting for shipment), and I was committed to transport the organ myself (airfare, truck, and time off).

(continued in next post)

[Moller Artiste]

Michael, Allen Organ Company (AOC) has a build sheet for every organ they have produced. You can call AOC, give the serial number and they should send you a copy. If not, you can go to your local Allen Organ dealer who can make the request. Or, if you know an Allen Organ dealer who is not local, that person can get a copy for you. -- Allen

[myorgan]

Thank you, Allen! When I call Allen, they refer me to the closest dealer. The closest dealer is now 300-400 miles away from me. Every time I've called them, they have referred me to the tech I already use, but now retired. I've simply had no luck at all with Allen-the company, that is.

Michael

P.S. I actually have the original documentation, but it's not matching the insides of the organ. I doubt Allen would have the details for the changes the Allen/Rodgers tech made for the Rodgers dealer when they took it in.

[myorgan]

The saga continued:

So, I expected the organ to come with a Sub-Bass Crossover board for subwoofers. Turns out, they only included Bass Lift cards-one for the A computer and one for the B computer (pictured below). On the A computer, two channels are fed through the board, and on the B computer only one channel is fed through the board.

Third question: If I somehow, miraculously find a couple of Sub-Bass Crossover cards, can they be substituted in-line for the Bass Lift cards, or is there something else I should do? It might be OK with the bass coming from HC-12 speakers in reverse polarity, but I do have three B-40 cabinets I'd like to use with the organ!

It appears the connections to the amplifiers from the A and B computers were left intact, but perhaps not connected (photo 3)? I'm sure I can follow the lines from there to the amplifier rack, but each black line (I presume coaxial) carries 2-3 channels inside it.

Fourth question: I know amplified speaker lines cannot run inside the same sheathing due to overheating and/or signal degredation, but what about signal lines before they are amplified? Will those survive intact?

And FINALLY, the last observation. On the USCM-1 board, there are two E-Proms in the first two positions of the 4 available sockets. The first position has a label something like SMBD A1 on the E-Prom, and the second position has a label something like SMBDBI(or 1), with a date of 3/15/1985 (the date of manufacture of the organ). Elsewhere on the organ, there is another E-Prom with the label CRBD with the same date on it, and the window to the chip is partially open.

Fifth question: Does anyone remember what these E-Proms are for, or their purpose? I know what they do on my ADC-4300 & ADC-5400, but I've never seen these designations.

Since the Trem-III units are missing for the Great and Choir, I'm wondering how difficult it would be to restore those divisions to their original stoplist, or if the samples Allen used would suffice and fill the need for a classical instrument.

I eagerly await your knowledgeable responses.

Michael

[AllenAnalog]

My cage charts for this model show a standard configuration with a combination of D40 and S-100 amplifiers. Having all S-100 amps presumably was an option for doubled speakers in a large venue. When you use the organ in your music room with one speaker per channel and no B-40 subs it would not need as beefy of an amplifier setup as when you use it for the symphony, presumably with doubled speakers and three subs.

1) The ADC amplifiers have one power supply for all of the channels so there is a a fixed amount of current available to share between the channels. So the more channels you have in an ADC amplifier enclosure, the less power each one has available to drive speakers when you are playing lots of notes with lots of stops on.

That's why 4-channel amplifiers are only used on smaller organs or for channels with no 32' or 16' stops. If I were switching this organ over to all ADC amplifiers I would use a combination of 2-channel amps for cage channels with 32' and 16' stops and 4-channel amps for cage channels with 8' or shorter stops. For the symphony, I'd be inclined to drive each B-40 cabinet with its own S-100 amp after you pass the channels with 32' stops through a crossover.

It doesn't have to be an Allen crossover, as discussed several times on the Forum. I'm using an active subwoofer crossover left over from a previous HiFi setup. The crossover should be at the amp rack, saving you an extra cable run from the console for each channel with a subwoofer.

2) Never use Y-cables to combine channels! Only use them to send a channel to two different amps.

3) The bass lift and sub bass crossover cards do different things and really are not interchangeable.

4 No problem running multiple line level signals from the cage to the amp rack together.

5) The two EPROMS close to each other contain the stop map for your instrument. The lone EPROM is the crescendo/Tutti map.

[myorgan]

I LOVE IT, Larry! All the answers in a short, concise treatise!

Conceivably, I could have one amp rack set up for Symphony, and another set up for home. That negates the profit from selling some amps, but I guess I'll have to live with it. Each set of amps could be customized for the space it'll be in.

More pictures from the garage coming soon. I just have some (read many) little projects to complete before the next set of pictures.;-)

Michael

[AllenAnalog]

My question for you is... have you tested the organ to see if the tone generation and combination action systems still work? It wouldn't be too difficult to plug in RCA cables directly from two cage channels at a time to a stereo HiFi amp with a couple of speakers attached to verify that both cages are working. That way you don't need to worry about connecting the mute delay wires on an ADC amp. Just turn on the amp after the organ is turned on to avoid the turn-on thump and turn the amp off before you turn off the organ.

Upon closer inspection of one of your photos (#3 in the second batch) it looks like you have at least 6 channels of mute relays built into the console. Are there 7 more somewhere else, like on the amp rack?

[myorgan]

At the time of sale, DV was provided, proving the organ works. I'll get around to that, but presently with 35 speakers in the garage that should be above in the attic space, there's not much room to work. Of course I can stack the speakers 6-7 high, but I need to provide fall protection if I'm to use the space for lessons. Working on sourcing lift materials tomorrow. They seem to be closing.:'(

I saw the mute relays when I took the photos, but didn't count them. I'm looking for the essentials first. I'm hoping they didn't remove the mute relays as well as combining channels. It's a project-but worth it in my book!

Michael