Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...

[Guest]

Firstly like to say hi to everyone. This is my first post (hooray![:D])</P>


Anyway, back to the point at hand. I play at a fairly small/mediumish sized church (can seat up to about 200). This is in the UK, by the way, so if any of you UK based people could help me out, that would be great.</P>


The Organ in the Church is a fairly decent 2 man 20 stop organ. However, recently, more and more things have been going wrong with it. The church doesnt have the money to pay for repairs. I recently set up an organ fund to raise some money, and am starting a monthly recital series to increase the amount in it. I was wondering, whether it would be easier to get a digital, which wouldn't need as many repairs (I'm assuming). So i'd just like to ask if anyone knows rough £ prices. I would be looking to get maybe a 2 manual, with 20 - 30 stops, and preferably drawstop - hate tabs! Is it feasible to get a organ like this, with a good aound for under £4000. Or am i just a bit Mad![8-)]</P>


The organ cuurently would need quite a big job to get it right again (The main problem being the middle pedal D wont sound, even with everything coupled to the pedals! ARRGH!</P>


Thanks all,</P>


Tutti_Toccata51</P>

[arie v]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Hi Tutti,</p>

I think you need a reality check. Being in North America, pricing of organs is different in the U.K., but my guess is that what you want will cost you at least triple your stated figure. Drawstops (real mechanical ones anyway) are expensive, good sound system is expensive, quality console is expensive. A good electronic, cannot be as inexpensive as you state. </p>

</p>

You don't state what kind of organ you play presently (pipe or electronic), but it seems to me, if the major thing wrong is 1 pedal not playing, you have a bad switch. Replace it and you should be in business. Shouldn't cost a fortune either.</p>

Arie V
</p>

[Guest]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Yeh, I thought I might be sort of in a dream world![:P]</P>


The current organ is a pipe organ, built in 1957 by a company called Hawkins and son, based in the UK. There are many other problems, cyphers stops not working etc, but the pedal d just causes the most problems! Will it still be some sort of switch problem.(Im not very technical at all!)</P>


Thanks Arie V,</P>


Tutti_Toccata51</P>

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Dear TT,</P>


May I suggest that you engage the services of a sympathetic pipe organ technician to look over the instrument and at least provide a general idea as to what is wrong. Sometimes even organs in bad shape can be made mostly playable again for a while as money is being raised to do a proper restoration. I personally know of a local situation that is not unlike yours. A capable but sympathetic technician is almost finished restoring the organ to a very reasonable state for under $20,000 (about $10,000 pounds). This is partly because he was interested in the job for more than just the money and partly because he did most of it between 'real jobs' and it took over a year rather than the few months that it should have taken.</P>


Hope my thoughts are helpful . . .</P>

[Guest]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Hi TT,</P>


Welcome to the Organ Forum! </P>


arie v is quite right - you could at least triple your figure of £4000. Here is a UK based supplier of digital organs which has prices, just to give you an indication: http://www.cathedralorgans.com/Bear in mind that the price quoted with each organ is without any additional extras like external speakers. </P>


Iagree withMenchenStimme'ssuggestion to try get a technician to have a look at the pipe organ. There's just no substitute for the real thing. I'm not against digital organs - I even own one myself - but you already have a pipe organ and it would be sad to see it go.</P>


Let us know what your decision is.</P>


Regards</P>

[Guest]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Thanks for the responses everyone.</P>


I agree, I i might get a technician in, good idea. The main thing i would like to get done first is fixing that pedal D! It causes such a problem. The only problem is the money issue. At this time, the organ fund has only a measly £16 in it. Thats why im starting these recitals, butI noI wont get big amounts from them. The only money that goes into the organ fund is waht i (the organist) can get from things. This would not be such a problem but im only 15! Any thoughts then how I could raise a bit more cash?</P>


Thanks everyone,</P>


Tutti_Toccata51</P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Greetings Tutti_Toccata51 - With rare exceptions, I'm all for preserving pipes. If every church tossed their pipe organ in a moment of weakness [:P] a wonderful heritage would soon vanish. Once the last pipe has gone out the front door, imagine how difficult it would be to get another pipe organ!</P>


Funds? You've got to get the vestry on your side. You said the church had "no money" - they must have some money, otherwise they wouldn't still be functioning?</P>


Here it is common to think of the organ as part of the building's physical plant. If a boiler repair or new roof is needed it seems the 'powers that be' go into action - before long, the money seems to appear and the problem is fixed. It should be no different for the organ.</P>


The church should considersetting asidean amount each yearfor organ maintenance, say a percentage of the organ's estimated value.An alternativeis to find out how much two tunings per year cost in your area, and then pad that number slightly to cover any minor mechanical issues that might arise.</P>


In my church, very large repair items (new combination action, new blower, etc.) come out of a special fund.</P>


The important thing is to establish a program of routine tuning &amp;maintenance, so that small problems don't develop into larger ones.Since it appears not to have been done for a long time, you might be surprised how much better your instrument will sound and respond with a thorough cleaning and tuning, plus some action and voicing regulation.</P>


At some point in your church's history someone thought it was important to have an organ; the congregation's good will and the efforts of (no doubt) many people ensured the funds were raised. It would be poor stewardship to let that deteriorate.</P>


I'm not preaching to you, but am just giving you some persuasive arguments to present. [:)]</P>


Lastly,it is imperativeto find a reputable organ firm in your area. You might enquire withsome ofthe biggest organbuilders in the UK; while they may not do the work they may have ideas as to whom to contact in your area.</P>


Good luck.</P>

[FrenchHorn8]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...

[quote user="MenchenStimme"]

Dear TT,</P>


May I suggest that you engage the services of a sympathetic pipe organ technician to look over the instrument and at least provide a general idea as to what is wrong. Sometimes even organs in bad shape can be made mostly playable again for a while as money is being raised to do a proper restoration. I personally know of a local situation that is not unlike yours. A capable but sympathetic technician is almost finished restoring the organ to a very reasonable state for under $20,000 (about $10,000 pounds). This is partly because he was interested in the job for more than just the money and partly because he did most of it between 'real jobs' and it took over a year rather than the few months that it should have taken.</P>


Hope my thoughts are helpful . . .</P>[/quote]

TT,



I have been doing what MenchenStimme mentioned here with a big Skinner organ. I'm sure that the pedal D will be a simple fix. A few weeks ago, low A# on the pedal of the Skinner ciphered after everytime it was played. The problem was with the contact plate under the pedal. I just had to take the pedal out of the pedalboard and back the contact wiper in a little. Your problem is probably for the same reason (except backwards!). The pedal contact wiper plate probably isn't hitting the two (or more, usually many more) contacts to complete the curcuit between the rectifier and the magnets that that pedal should be actuating.



I don't know how Hawkins & Son did their pedalboards, but builders *usually* have the contacts toward the middle or end of the pedal where there is more movement. See if you can get the pedalboard up see if there's a problem with the contacts. Don't forget to clean up the pile of pencils while the pedalboard is off the floor.



I'm assuming the organ is on its original leather, if it's Electro-Pneumatic. That's probably what's causing ciphers. The releathering job will require a professional, unless you're feeling really ambitious and want to learn how to releather from a pro.



Trevor

[soubasse32]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



I'd be very cautious about undertaking any repairs on my own! Especially since TT said he was not technical. After years of workingwith a local builder, I can recount a number of situations where a do-it-yourself repair job ultimately cost the church more money.</P>


A pedalboard removal can be tricky. Some can have fragile wire contacts or mechanical parts that are prone to breakage if the pedalboard is removed the wrong way. I've encountered one pedalboard that was nearly impossible to put back in place, even with two people. Something to think about....</P>


Here is perhaps some good news: Hawkins &amp; Son seem to still be in business, at Walsall Wood. It would beinteresting to hear what they might have to say. I can imagine that they would be motivated to keep one of their own installations in good shape.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Thanks Again for the replies, they are all very helpful to me.</P>


Soubasse, I completely agree with you about setting the money aside. However, there are one or two problems to contend with. Firstly, the parish is not exactly rich. In fact, the only way they could pay their parish share last year was from a very generous donor. In addition, the church is in a very rough area, with windows and lights etc constantly being broken. Last year, for the church's 50th anniverary, they had some copper put on the roof, and this was stolen, ripped right off! Repairs cost a lot, and it is constantly happening! This leads me to my point that, even though many of the people in the church like the organ, I don't think they would even be willing to put aside great amounts of money towards it. They don't class it as a priority you see.</P>


In addition, the vicar is very much into this happy clappy style of worship, which isn't my personal choice of music, but everyone has their opinions! I only play every other sunday. Whenever I'm not there she often gets in a worship praise band. I think, once again, the organ is way down on her list of priorities.</P>


However, I agree with you completely. Any more thoughts, they sure would be welcome!</P>


Trevor, Also thanks for your post. So, do you mean I can just pull the pedal board out. I tried feeling under the pedals a couple of weeks ago and there are these metal rod kind of things. Would these be the things that need cleaning? If this is true this would be of great help!</P>


Thanks again all,</P>


Tutti_Toccata51</P>

[Guest]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



For more information on the organ, look here</P>


http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/R...c_index=N03196</P>


Its a lovely little organ really, quite big for such a small Parish!</P>


Since I've started playing there (over a year now!) the v'iol darmour has never worked. Is the much like a celeste stop. If not what type of sound does it produce, I've never come into contact with a working one before.</P>


Thanks,</P>


TT</P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Sorry to hear about the dodgy circumstances. If faced with the choice between a tambourine-slinging vicar or a rough neighborhood, I know which I would choose! [:P]</P>


It is important to know where the church stands, how much lattitude they will give you towards fund-raising. For example, will they allow you to set out a permanent box with the sign "Organ Fund Donations"? </P>


Oh yes, make surethat boxis bolted down. [:O]</P>


There are plenty of things you could organize: bake sales, car washes, etc. You could go to some of the local businesses - tell them you are organizing a recital series, and would they like to "buy" advertisement space in your program. (You have to come up with some programs, hope that is not too much of an obstacle?)</P>


If you get enough people coming to a recital (make sure to include other instrumentalists, for maximum audience interest!) the local businesses might like the idea of your concert-goers patronizing their businesses pre- or post-recital.</P>


You might approach some of the more sympathetic parishioners individually, or write up a proposal in your church newsletter (if they have one).</P>


These are just a few thoughts that come to mind, but they all require some sort of approval before you proceed.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Thanks Soubasse, Silly as it sounds, I hadn't thought of the box at the back of the church! </P>


I've also done the main part of the programmes and have left some space on the back for advertising. I was thinking of later on in the year getting some friends to do some recitals (bassoon, piano etc). If anyone's in the west midlands and wants to come to a recital on 5th May (Sat) at 2pm, they are welcome. Lol. </P>


Thanks,</P>


TT</P>


(P.S, the recital is at a place called Emmanuel Church Bentley if you really do want to come!)</P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...



Thanks for the invitation! I'm afraidmy timein the UKthis year will consist of a quick visit to Heathrow. [:)]</P>


You are right about that organ - it looks to beof a good size, and has just about anything you might need for a moderately ambitious recital.</P>


You may wish to program something by Dietrich Buxtehude. The 300th anniversary of his death occurs on May 9 this year!</P>


Regarding that Viol d'Amour, check this out: http://www.organstops.org/v/ViolaDAmore.html</P>


Itcould well be a celeste (beating) stop, tuned to beat with the Salicional. If so, it would be nice to restore it to functionality. Even if it is not a celeste, it might be useful as the softest voice in the organ.</P>

[FrenchHorn8]

Re: Thinking of getting a Didgital Organ for Church...

[quote user="Tutti_Toccata51"]


Trevor, Also thanks for your post. So, do you mean I can just pull the pedal board out. I tried feeling under the pedals a couple of weeks ago and there are these metal rod kind of things. Would these be the things that need cleaning? If this is true this would be of great help!</P>[/quote]



I think I may have to go with soubasse here. Don't try moving the pedalboard unless you know how it's connected. If you can feel those contacts under the pedal, it's probably Skinner style - the contact board is attached to the bottom of the pedalboard, so it's probably connected by a cable. The contact plate thingies looke like this-




These things screw into the bottom of the pedal and touch those little rods you felt when the pedal is pushed down. Most likely those rods, along with the ones under the other 31 pedals, will need cleaning and some regulation.

Trevor