walker instruments

[radagast]

Re: walker instruments



[quote user="radagast"] Well someone needs to tell DHM that he is really wasting his time telling us all that he represents an organ line in the U.K. [/quote]</P>


Actually I should also add Mr. Odell to what I said about DHM. He is very clear that he is a pipe organ builder.</P>

[radagast]

Re: walker instruments

[quote user="organist777"][quote user="radagast"]


Believe it or not, there are new people who come to this forum, now and then, who aren't aware of all the things the rest of us know because they can't read minds.</P>


[/quote]</P>



<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">There you go again...

If anyone has read through any of this forum, they will know who I am... no need to read minds at all... and I've never tried to hide this from anyone, despite your jumping at shadows. Most people enjoy their anonymity here, as is evidenced by the nearly total lack of information on profile pages, like yours, Bill.[:O] Mine offers all the information you have consistently accused me of hiding, and far more than the vast majortiy of posters. It's worn out - <SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">get off it!</SPAN></SPAN></P>


<FONT size=3><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,times">If there is anyone on this thead that was not aware that I am a Phoenix Organ Representative for the Southeastern United States, please accept my aplologies, BUT that information has always been just one "click" away at any time on any post I make for anyone to see! </SPAN></FONT></P>


<FONT size=3><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,times">But, in the light of full disclosure, since </SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">some seem to think I'm some sort of sinister, lurking monster lying in wait to devour the innocent....</SPAN><FONT size=3><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,times"> I have been an organist for almost 35 years, I have a BFA degree, I'm married with three grown children and one grandchild, I have a beard, and love seafood. I live on the Gulf Coast and really enjoy off-shore fishing. Anything else anyone needs to know? Oh, yeah... my shoe size is 9-1/2 DD![:)]</SPAN></FONT>
</P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">Dave.</SPAN></P>
<P mce_keep="true">[/quote]</P>
<P mce_keep="true">And there YOU go again. There may actually be people here who DON'T KNOW about profiles. Why do you expect everyone else to know everything there is to know about this forum? If some newbie doesn't know about profiles and reads your statements not knowing your vested interest, then tough luck for them, eh? It's everyone ELSE'S responsibility, right? Well someone needs to tell DHM that he is really wasting his time telling us all that he represents an organ line in the U.K. Of course you could put your connection to Phoenix in your tag line at the bottom of your posts, but I suppose talking about boats and organs floating is much funnier.</P>
<P mce_keep="true">I am a computer programmer for a women's clothing catalog in Indianapolis, Indiana. I have a degree in business. I am 52 years old. My shoe size is 13. You know what they say about men's feet, "Big feet...Big socks".</P>

[Clavier]

Re: walker instruments



Bone... ha ha.</p>


[quote user="clumber"] </p>


I'm a dog, for crying out loud! </p>[/quote]

</p>

[clumber]

Re: walker instruments

[quote user="arie v"]

And I know why they sound that way. No great state secret there.</p>


AV</p>

[/quote]</p>

</p>

Jeesh, I'm beginning to feel like a dentist here... </p>

And that secret is... and Walker uses what for sound generation... and M&amp;O uses what for sound generation? And amplification in those systems is handled by what?
</p>

Throw us a frickin bone here, Arie...</p>

A-
</p>

[arie v]

Re: walker instruments



Dave,</P>


I have not been employed by Artisan Classic Organs since July 2005.</P>


My bread is buttered by being an independent service person, and I work for whoever on an as needed basis.</P>


After being in the organ business for 25.5 years and now 2 more on my own, I kinda know the business. I have heard and played many organs, and come across very few surprises. To me all but very few digi organs still sound like electronic organs. And I know why they sound that way. No great state secret there.</P>


AV</P>

[clumber]

Re: walker instruments

[quote user="organist777"]

<font size="3"><span style="font-family: times new roman,times;"> Oh, yeah... my shoe size is 9-1/2 DD![:)]</span></font>
</p>

<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Dave.</span></p>

[/quote]
</p>

Okay, as long as everyone else is coming clean... </p>

I do not work for Phoenix, Walker, M&amp;O, Allen, Rogers, Wicks, or any other organ company and have never done so.
</p>

I'm a dog, for crying out loud! See, that's my picture, right there!
</p>

I am current with all my shots.</p>

I want to know more about the electronics in alll the manufacturers. I'd also like more details on sample technologies in all digital instruments (Arie, that's your cue!).
</p>

I have never bitten anyone, no matter what people tell you.
</p>

Andy</p>

[Vercus]

Re: walker instruments

[quote user="organist777"]

<font size="3"><span style="font-family: times new roman,times;">Oh, yeah... my shoe size is 9-1/2 DD![:)]</span></font>
</p>

<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Dave.</span></p>

[/quote]</p>

Now I'm satisfied...LOL!</p>

-Jon</p>

[organist777]

Re: walker instruments

[quote user="radagast"]


Believe it or not, there are new people who come to this forum, now and then, who aren't aware of all the things the rest of us know because they can't read minds.</p>

[/quote]</p>


<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">There you go again...

If anyone has read through any of this forum,
they will know who I am... no need to read minds at all... and I've never tried to hide this from anyone, despite your jumping at shadows. Most people enjoy their anonymity here, as is evidenced by the nearly total lack of information
on profile pages, like yours, Bill.[:O] Mine offers all the information you have consistently accused me of hiding, and far more than the vast majortiy of posters. It's worn out - <span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">get off it!</span></span></p>

<font size="3"><span style="font-family: times new roman,times;">If there is anyone on this thead that was not aware that I am a Phoenix Organ Representative for the Southeastern United States, please accept my aplologies, BUT that information has always been just one "click" away at any time on any post I make for anyone to see! </span></font></p>

<font size="3"><span style="font-family: times new roman,times;">But, in the light of full disclosure, since </span></font><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">some seem to think I'm some sort of sinister,
lurking monster lying in wait to devour the innocent....</span><font size="3"><span style="font-family: times new roman,times;"> I have been an organist for almost 35 years, I have a BFA degree, I'm married with three grown children and one grandchild, I have a beard, and love seafood. I live on the Gulf Coast and really enjoy off-shore fishing. Anything else anyone needs to know? Oh, yeah... my shoe size is 9-1/2 DD![:)]</span></font>
</p>

<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Dave.</span></p>

</p>

<span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"></span>
</p>

[radagast]

Re: walker instruments

[quote user="organist777"][quote user="arie v"]


Dave,</P>


You speak like a loyal dealer.........These have the potential of sounding better than just about any proprietary system. The PC is a far more powerful platform than say the Atmel DREAM chip,...............</P>


[/quote]</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


--</P>


I am, which is well known on this forum, and I'm quite proud of it.</P>


And you speak like a loyal employee of Classic Organworks of Toronto, representatives for Walker, M&amp;O, an A-G. You brought up the subject of chips in this discussion of Walker organs, so... in all fairness... what chip does Walker use? You must know, and many here would like to know, too.... since you brought it up.
</P>


Dave.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>


[/quote]</P>


Believe it or not, there are new people who come to this forum, now and then, who aren't aware of all the things the rest of us know because they can't read minds.</P>


That's why I appreciateDHM for being open about the fact that he represents Hoffrichter in just about EVERY post he makes. You can send another nasty private post to me if you want Dave, but I am not chasing any demons. Iam just respectful of the new people who join this forum, and I don't make any unwarranted assumptions.</P>


Bill Roberts</P>


P.S. And I don't work for ANY organ company in any way, shape, or form.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[organist777]

Re: walker instruments





</p>

[clumber]

Re: walker instruments



Well, if you have a system that works, why would you want to scrap the whole thing and start over? The Phoenix sound system is relatively new, boots up to a playable state in 5 seconds or so, switches to a new voicing in one or two seconds, doesn't crash, and is relatively cheap compared to dedicated PC's. So I get back to my previous request, and to try to keep this discussion on topic - what's Walker's technology - and please give us an analysis of the good and bad points.</p>

And I know I speak as a loyal customer... but your insight into technology would be very helpful for us all to understand and compare and contrast the digital approaches. Perhaps a new topic to compare the underlying technologies is in order...</p>

Andy
</p>

[arie v]

Re: walker instruments



Dave,</p>

You speak like a loyal dealer. I would hope that there is periodic tweaking of the system, either to somewhat improve flexibility, get rid of software bugs, improve user interface, etc. I would suggest that this is no different from what any high tech company is doing.</p>

What is much harder to do, and costs big bundles of money is saying you are going to scrap the whole system and start from a clean slate. This is where is do not see much happening. I don't see that there are enough sales to justify R&amp;D investment in something new. Looking at what Rodgers and Allen have done in the last 10 years, I don't see any major changes, just incremental improvements. If there are major improvements, I haven't heard them or know of them.
</p>

My guess, is that the future in digi organs is the trend to virtual PC based organs. These have the potential of sounding better than just about any proprietary system. The PC is a far more powerful platform than say the Atmel DREAM chip, and is constantly getting more powerful, it is a world standard, and constantly upgradeable.</p>

AV</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

[organist777]

Re: walker instruments



There have been many changes for improvements in Phoenix Organs in the past 5 or 6 years, one recently being the doubling of the memory on Phoenix soundcards. Despite what some think, R&amp;D in a small custom organ company is quite robust, is constantly ongoing, and the results can be instituted nearly instantly. Just because you don't see a bunch of <font style="font-weight: bold;" size="3">®'</font>s and '<font style="font-weight: bold;" size="2">TM</font>'s lined up behind a bunch of catch-phrases on a website doesn't mean improvements and additions are not happening. It is always ongoing. Many changes and improvements that have been made will never be seen or known by anyone but Phoenix engineers and Phoenix dealers, but they all add up to making the organ the best it can be<u></u><u></u>.... play a Phoenix. </p>

Dave.
</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

</p>

[clumber]

Re: walker instruments

Arie,


I believe you are have a lot of good ideas there. Something like the CNMAT/Meyer Sound Spherical Loudspeaker Array would potentially be a creative speaker for instrument building, wouldn't it? With Hauptwerk, you could see organ building change from a hardware problem (consoles and speakers and amps and MIDI controls, etc) to being a software problem (sound samples, the sale of services like integration and voicing, stoplist design, etc), with room for both "types" of organ builders. The Allen dealer we spoke to was so proud of his solution for placing speakers in cradles pointed off in odd directions which he claimed made for a more "organ like" sound. I thought that he just had a band-aid on the basic problem, that their sound system was underpowered. Our Phoenix uses bipolar speakers to achieve a sound field closer to an organ pipe. The CNMAT array would potentially be awesome in reproducing the complex organ sound field!
</p>

If organs really could become more modular, then a Hauptwerk type of solution would actually be a liberating solution both for manufacturers who have to maintain proprietary parts warehouses forever, and for buyers, who could shop around for the best deals on amps and speakers, change the stoplists as needed or desired, put in newer technology as it becomes available, etc. It also implies that you realistically price all of the things that go into an organ, however. What's a day of voicing really worth? What's a set of sound samples really worth? What's the integration of all the parts worth? What's building a console worth? It probably becomes a huge threat to the big names of organ builders if you can sit down and order all the parts you need from some on-line "Organs-R-Us". In some sense, I believe that is the niche that Walker, M&amp;O and Phoenix are taking up. There's still proprietary stuff in the boxes, but they will work with you to achieve the integration of all the "stuff" just as you want, and substitution of different speakers, amps, sample sets, etc is possible. They are "systems integrators", putting the parts together and insuring the quality of the total install.
</p>

So, back on the topic of this forum, do you know what Walker uses for sound generation, and to be fair, what it's strengths and weaknesses are? While the DREAM chip might potentially be difficult to work with and not ideal, a similar case could probably be made for any Intel chip made in the last 30 years used in PC's, and yet, that's the chip that has dominated PC's. In some sense, the ease or difficulty in using a particular chip is not all that important, as long as the sound quality can be achieved, yes?</p>

Oh, one other thing modularity might allow, and that is improving an organ over time. You can't afford the whole thing now? Buy what you can and improve it as you are able to... start with a modest instrument, and then improve it as you are able to buy more amps, speakers, stops, etc. Can't afford that subwoofer that does 10-200Hz now? Well, maybe later on in the life of your instrument you can do it. That's an interesting buying concept to me.
</p>

Andy
</p>

[arie v]

Re: walker instruments



Bill,</p>

You're welcome.</p>

It's no great secret that Phoenix uses the Dream chip. It used to be published on some Phoenix related web-sites, but has been taken off. My guess is that the DREAM chip was chosen because the founder of the company used to work for Makin (Johannus) who used the DREAM chip and maybe still do. So he had a head start, knowing how the chip worked, along with the chip having the software to make it run supplied by the manufacturer. Now the DREAM chip is not a nice chip to work with for building organs, so you either do work arounds, or re-write the software, but the chip is not easy to emulate, so you just do your best to build organs with it.
</p>

You see, manufacturers want you to BELIEVE that they are the BEST. But lately, the less information they give, the better. This makes comparisons more difficult, but also they don't really want you to know that their latest and greatest thing, is just a re-fried version of what they did before. Sometimes, the latest and greatest is not even as good as last years version. The problem most everybody these days is facing is a decline in sales, decline in margins so to start an engineering project with a clean slate just isn't done anymore. The future I believe in electronic organs is using PC hardware to do console control and also tone generation, much like M&amp;O did, but also what Hauptwerk and others are doing to make virtual organs. The PC hardware is much more powerful than any organ company's hardware, less likely to become obsolete within 6 months of design, should be easier to fix years down the road etc.</p>

One other thing, about digi organs. I believe they could be made to sound better today even with today's hardware. I think a lot of weaknesses in today's digi organs can be traced to insufficient number of audio channels, speakers that are not creative designs and also rather mediocre in performance. But then churches, committees, buyers are usually not obsessed by audio, especially if it means higher costs, taking up more space etc.</p>

Must call it a day...........</p>

Arie V</p>

</p>