Allen Organ News - Sept 18

[nullogik]

To me, though, it seems like with memory being 'cheap' in comparison to 20 years ago, it should be easy and relatively inexpensive to have many more stops than before, even with additional audio.

Don't Allen (and others) do that already? They use the extra memory in a different way to provide - in the Allen's case of the G210 - six different tonal suites. Granted you can't access all the stops from all six suites simultaneously but it does offer a wider range of built in sounds than was available on previous generations of electronic organs. A 28 stop MDS was just that but a 28 stop G210, assuming no sharing of stops across suites, has stored within it up to 28x6 worth of stops.

[Peterboroughdiapason]

Is it my imagination, or do Allen stop lists keep getting shorter?

Good thing too! At least in the UK, there were many electronic organs installed in churches that had very unrealistic specifications. It never sounds realistic to have thundering 32 foot reeds and majestic tubas in a small village church. I think an electronic should have the same sort of specification that a pipe organ built for the church would have. Perhaps a few more stops, but not on a wildly different scale. Quality is better than quantity!

We now believe that bigger isn't necessarily better and often pipe organs had too many pipes stuffed into too small cases, so that they weren't able to speak properly. They are often now reduced in size on rebuilds, to their benefit.

In any case, surely Allen's will provide you with as many stops as you want. The G570a has over 100 stops (and a with a custom organ the sky is presumably the limit!).

N.B. Thomas Attwood, organist of St. Paul's Cathedral early in the nineteenth-century, was once told by Canon Sydney Smith, "You organists are like overworked cab horses -- always looking for another stop!"

[circa1949]

Good thing too! At least in the UK, there were many electronic organs installed in churches that had very unrealistic specifications. It never sounds realistic to have thundering 32 foot reeds and majestic tubas in a small village church. I think an electronic should have the same sort of specification that a pipe organ built for the church would have. Perhaps a few more stops, but not on a wildly different scale. Quality is better than quantity!

I think you are mostly wrong here. "Realistic" in your mind as someone who knows organs, is not necessarily the same as "musically effective for punters". And in fact it's probably demonstrably NOT the same. One of the best, if not the best, e-organs I've heard is the huge Johannus custom in a Springfield, VA, church. Having a large 4 manual specification that a small church like that would never have as a pipe organ. It sounded amazing - and if every church of that size had an organ as amazing sounding, maybe traditional liturgical music would be more slow to die on the vine.


I do agree it has to be done in a thoughtful way. The Allen Quantum I also reviewed in 2011 had some 32' pedal stops cause a rattling in the church. An unbecoming rattle! Conversely the Johannus was powerful, without sounding over-amplified.

We now believe that bigger isn't necessarily better and often pipe organs had too many pipes stuffed into too small cases, so that they weren't able to speak properly. They are often now reduced in size on rebuilds, to their benefit.

In any case, surely Allen's will provide you with as many stops as you want. The G570a has over 100 stops (and a with a custom organ the sky is presumably the limit!).

N.B. Thomas Attwood, organist of St. Paul's Cathedral early in the nineteenth-century, was once told by Canon Sydney Smith, "You organists are like overworked cab horses -- always looking for another stop!"

Great joke. And yes, this thread is seeming to me like a bit of a just-so story. The Allen lineup is always changing in terms of what features are at what price point. Obviously. Maybe the price point for the amount of stops you used to get is just going higher? Is it also a matter of fashion? I bet there were times when the "most average" middle-of-the-road American pipe organ specifications out there included a Sifflote 1, and times when they didn't. Allen might just be following wider trends. The cheapest European E-organs in the late 80s, 1990s, like an Italian Baldwin I played somewhere when I was a very mediocre substitute organist...always seemed to have odd stoplists to me compared to organs like a MDS-10 I also played. Cannot remember the exact differences though.

So, maybe more correct to say "the stoplists of the bargain models have gotten shorter".

FWIW the early MDS organs were definitely "more realistic" than late ADC organs. I don't know why that laughable canard keeps getting kicked around by some people here. Now, whether they were "too realistic" in a way that sometimes compromised their "musicality" is another question. I've shared several times the anecdote an Allen tech at the yahoo board told me - that the very first MDS organs had their chips field replaced after a year or so, to put in less chiffy samples!

[radagast]

To me, though, it seems like with memory being 'cheap' in comparison to 20 years ago, it should be easy and relatively inexpensive to have many more stops than before, even with additional audio.

EDIT: How many audio channels are they using now? Is it still a standard 4 for the G210?

With extra memory you can have lots of stops stored in memory, but that doesn’t change the computing power, regarding the number of stops you can have all at once.

[arie v]

Hi,

I looked at some of the stop lists of the el cheapo Euro organs from the late 80s into the early 90s. I generally didn't find anything wrong with the stop lists themselves, more how the stops were generated, how they blended, and the audio system used to actually produce the sound. Far too often too little generating power, no voicing capabilities, limited and lousy audio contributed too organs that sounded that sounded less than satisfying.

There is no doubt in my mind, that if manufacturers followed pipe organ stop list more closely, small e-organs would sound better. But then they would be harder to sell. It is easier to sell a small organ with a 32' Bourdon, than to sell a small organ with a really nice principal chorus.

Just remember that most models are products of marketing departments, not musical decisions. How many organs are sold with 3 manuals , just because of an extra keyboard. Models are designed with check lists in mind, such as # keyboards, # stops, include a 32' stop, etc, drawstops over tabs, etc.

About 10 years ago, I went and heard Hector Olivera play the initial recital on a 4 manual "R" organ. This organ had a 64' stop. Mr. Olivera used that stop a lot. It sounded like industrial noise to me. Why in earth does one need a 64' stop? Well I checked the comparable Allen model, and sure enough their model also had a 64' stop.

Check the internet, and see how many pipe organs have a 64' stop. My guess is that there are less than half a dozen. Some church or organist just has to have a 64' stop for bragging rights.

AV

[Melos Antropon]

I have heard it used on a couple of organs that had it, and IMO, it adds nothing of musical value. A perfect example of the "Can You Top This?" club.

Tony

[mrdc2000]

Quoted: "It adds nothing of musical value". The same thing can be said for the bottom octave of a 32' pedal stop, just a big rumble and shake, except for the 32 Bombarde, due to its harmonics.

[toodles]

Remember, though, that the pedals have an octave and a half above the lowest octave, so the 32 and 64 ft voices do have some of their range where they are easily audible, even if limited in their utility.

[davidecasteel]

Our church organ has a 64' Resultant (called the Vox Balaena) that covers all 32 pedals. It was a "freebie" thrown in by the builder, more or less as a "fun" thing. I don't think it adds much to the sound, though. I'd much rather there was a real 32' Open Wood.

David

[Melos Antropon]

Our church organ has a 64' Resultant (called the Vox Balaena) that covers all 32 pedals. It was a "freebie" thrown in by the builder, more or less as a "fun" thing. I don't think it adds much to the sound, though. I'd much rather there was a real 32' Open Wood.

David

Yes, that was my point. I absolutely love the 32' Open Wood or Contra Violone. I can clearly hear the note "C" at the bottom of a Contra Violone; it is not "just a rumble" to my ears. In the 1959 RCA recording of the Boston Symphony doing the Saint-Saens third symphony, you can clearly hear the bottom notes of the Contra Violone as distinct pitches - if your subwoofer is a good one. The exciting rumble of a good Contra Bombarde or Contra Posaune is, as noted, largely harmonics, though. But it adds considerably, in the best musical sense, to the sound!

Tony

[voet]

I have heard it used on a couple of organs that had it, and IMO, it adds nothing of musical value. A perfect example of the "Can You Top This?" club.

Tony

The Atlantic City organ (which is being restored, btw) has a 21 1/3 Tibia Quint in the pedal to create a 128' resultant with the 64' Diaphone. This reminds me of the ad that a cell phone company ran a few years ago "Can you hear me now?"

[mrdc2000]

Huge difference between 32 Open Wood or Contra Violin, the OW is nearly all fundamental while the CV is nearly all harmonics. Harmonics are easily heard whereas the bottom half octave of a 32' fundamental voice can only be felt and not heard, hence my comment of NO musical value.

[don60]

My hearing extends below 15 Hz, so I can appreciate the good rumble of a nice 32' stop. But I have had customers tell me that they become physically ill in the presence of such low-frequency energy, probably because of the sensations that it induces in the head and chest.

When will the first builder be installing a 256' stop?

[voet]

Usually the 32' is used with at least one other stop which can give pitch definition. I love the addition of a soft 32' on the last bass note of a quiet passage. It is like being wrapped in a warm blanket.

[Melos Antropon]

Usually the 32' is used with at least one other stop which can give pitch definition. I love the addition of a soft 32' on the last bass note of a quiet passage. It is like being wrapped in a warm blanket.

Exactly.

Tony