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**Guest** · 04-25-2007, 07:19 PM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

That's a nice vacuum tube analog model. Unless you like tinkering with antiques, I would look for something newer. It's a pretty console but youre looking at a lot of maintenance. You can find a MOS1 organ for 750-1000 dollars andwith reverb it has amuch better sound. Look for one with a card reader. Lots of very good sounds.Also at starting price of 399, reserve is NOT met so really you don't know the true price. Now don't you analog guys jump on me, I know it's a nice organ. So isa D Wurlitzer!, But we need to be practical here????</P>

Good Luck,</P>

Al</P>
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**Clavier** · 04-25-2007, 07:30 PM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Rich, if I were to take a guess, the organ is probably not worth $100.00. I lay you odds it will not sell. I should also warn you that this organ requires a small fortune worth of vacuum tubes. A 12AU7 is not an expensive tube per say, but they will definitely add up at about $8.00 a pop. It appears there are about 20 on each tone generator. Also, I think I should point out that the pedal board is not built to AGO standards. It's what is known as the "princess pedalboard". The naturals are 20" as opposed 27" (ish). The accidentals are about 3" long as opposed to 5" and all of the pedal are just a hair narrower and closer together. Some folks would say that it makes all the difference in the world and is terrible. I would say that they are 'tolerable'.</p>

On the subject of this organ. I can assure you that it is likely a decent sounding organ. Allen makes a very high quality electronic organ and this one has clearly been well cared for. However, it is your choice. </p>

**MarkS** · 04-26-2007, 04:49 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Skip this one and get an organ with an AGO pedalboard. You are serious about using this as a practice organ and the non-standard pedals will make you crazy.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Actually, it is probably incredibly reliable and rarely requires tube replacement. It has been years since we've bought any tubes. Ours uses 84 6SN7 tubes by the way. On average certainly no more than a tube every other year--no kidding. We've had this one since 1986 and haven't gone through ten tubes. Tuning isn't as stable as it used to be so a collection of capacitors is handy. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Mark </DIV><DIV>1957 Allen C3 (used for a couple of hours per day, six days a week)</DIV>

**Clavier** · 04-26-2007, 05:31 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Mark, are your manuals weighted at all? When I was looking at the Ebay ad I noticed the keys look like full size piano keys. How do they feel to the touch? What is the action like? Obviously they aren't hammer action, but I was just wondering what that would be like, I have never played on one of the very old Allens.

**Guest** · 04-26-2007, 05:32 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Thanks for the candid responses. I was on the fence about this one anyway, and I think I'm going to avoid it. I just assumed that the pedal was standard, but if its not, then I don't think its worth it. And I've just noticed that some people are selling organs on this forum, so I will check that out as well. I can probably get a bit more information from these owners than I can on eBay. I've just moved away from all of my church connections, so until I find
one I like, I can't play at all! I've got to balance being excited
with getting a good instrument....</p>

I'm curious about one thing though. What is a MOS1 organ? It sounds like it might be an electronic technology. Who makes it? </p>

Thanks again for all the continued help,</p>

-Rich
</p>

**Guest** · 04-26-2007, 06:19 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

MOS (Metal Oxide Semiconductor) 1 was the first series of digital computer organs by Allen. It uses samples of pipe organ ranks, was state of the art in the 70's and is excellent even today. The evolution went as follows: MOS1, MOS2, MDC, ADC, MDS, Renneisance, Quantum. MOS1 and MOS2 have good sound and are relatively inexpensive. MDC I would not recommend as it was a low cost version, ADC and newer have very good sound with proper speaker placement. They are also quite expensive. I had a MOS1 with the "princess" pedalboard and used it for a number of years. It is more compact than AGO, but still quite useable. I am selling it now as I have upgraded to a newer model. I added MIDI to it and had it hooked to 7 ranks of pipe.</P>

Al</P>

**arie v** · 04-26-2007, 06:55 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Al,</p>

I wouldn't consider Allen's MOS1 organs, sample based. I believe what they did was record pipes, do a fourier analysis of the tone, and sort out the harmonic content of the tone, which was then put in memory. They only had 16 points of the waveform (half the waveform actually) recorded for a whole stop. There was no attack or release information included in the stop information. When multiple stops were turned on, the computer just summed the stops together and spit out a composite tone. A better way to describe them is repetitive waveform readout organs. They may have been state of the art in the early 70s, but I haven't come across even one that I would consider sounding excellent.</p>

Allen's major improvement in actual tone production I believe came in the late 80s, with the second go-around of the ADC series. I don't know what is different about them as opposed to the early ADCs, but the ones I have heard sound noticeably better. Some of the special custom organs had better tonal attributes in them, such as the SSDS organs and the Classic series.
</p>

What makes the early digital computer Allens still a solid proposition to own is that they are well built and the company still backs them with technical support. But for sound..........well lets just say, they don't do it for me.</p>

Arie V</p>

</p>

</p>

**MarkS** · 04-26-2007, 07:33 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

The keys on the old Allens had a spring on the end, with a simple adjustment for tension. They should function and feel the same as those on most new Allens.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>To give a little history, the first Allen digital organs were introduced in 1971 and are called MOS1.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I thought the ADC organs (beginning 1983) were a great leap forward, but must agree that the later ones (I do a lot of subbing on a very small one from 1993) seem to sound much better.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The advantage of an old vacuum tube Allen is that it is easy for me to service. The disadvantage is that many of the service techs don't seem to know how to service it. They're too young!</DIV>

**jbird604** · 04-26-2007, 07:45 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Rich,</P>

As you mention, you need to make a church connection in your new location so you can get back to playing. Don't rush into buying something, as it is hard to get rid of one after you get it home. I've owned several used instruments, and the moving expense is generally the biggest investment, and one you cannot recoup if youfind yourself dissatisfied with your purchase.</P>

Another unrecoverable cost when you buy a used organ is the cost of having it repaired, installed, and voiced or adjusted for your room, unless you are fully capable of doing all this yourself."Free" or almost-free organs(including one that I'm currently trying to get rid of) will almost always require some setup or hookup once moved that could cost quite a bit of money.</P>

The organs I see on ebay are sometimes pretty shabby looking too. You want to consider whether you can stand to have it in your house,and if it meets with the approval of anyone you share the house with. An organ designed for a church will usuallyhave external speakers, and they can be very large, and sometimes quite unsightly too.</P>

Self-contained organs (speakers in the console)may be worth considering. Allen, Rodgers, Conn,Baldwin,Johannus, etc., havebuilt good self-contained organs. Some self-contained models are really dinky, having been designed for the small church with limited musicians, or for the funeral home. But others are respectable. You need to study the stoplists, do your research, and most of all, ask the members of this forum, who have incredible wisdom and experience in all things organ!</P>

I am less wise than most, anda poor organist, but happen to be an organ technician, so I will watch your postings and offer my technical opinions if needed.</P>

Good luck.</P>

John</P>

**Guest** · 04-26-2007, 10:34 AM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Dear John (and everyone else who has posted),</p>

Thanks for all of the advice. I've realized that the reason that I fell in love with the organ in the first place is because all of the churches I've attended have had top-notch instruments and musicians. So I've never come in contact with one of the smaller "practice" organs that I'm currently in the market for (its funny, if my church would have had a small electronic organ like I'm in the market for, I probably would still be playing the piano!). Therefore, your suggestions of brands/models to look at are most helpful. It turns out I have a bit more of a budget than I originally described (perhaps as much as 3-4k if the organ is just perfect), but I'm really scared to spend it on something 500 miles away that I can't play first.</p>

Could you tell me, is voicing/tuning actually a possibility on fully electronic organs? I would have assumed that they came tuned, and nothing was adjustable. How do they go OUT of tune? And what about voicing? Isn't everything coming out of the same speakers and already pre-programmed? I'll admit, John, that I wasn't aware that these steps were necessary when purchasing a used organ. What ballpark should I expect to pay for this?</p>

Fondly, to all have helped,</p>

-Rich
</p>

**Vercus** · 04-26-2007, 12:37 PM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Hey Guys,</p>

I've been an organist at a church with a 1957 Allen C-1 for a few years, so I thought I would be ideally suited to comment on this organ. It has two generators- diapason and flute. Any other stops are just combinations of the above. It uses 12Au7s, one for every two notes, as the 12AU7 is a dual triode. The console is built like a tank, and easy to service. I have done some minor tune ups myself. It's definitely designed to be easy to service. Each generator is on a drawer that slides out and flips over to allow easy adjustment of the tuning and volume pots. Caps are accessible and easily changed. </p>

First reliability: It's actually been quite reliable. I've never had a tube go, and in fact when I opened it up, all but a few are original Allen tubes. However, I have had a few capacitors go, and when they do it can be quite disturbing, as suddenly the note gets sharper, and louder! But all in all, a very reliable organ for being 50 years old. I would not let reliability deter you from buying it.</p>

Second, sound: Well, this one is missing the quintessential "Gyro-phonic" speaker which it was designed for. The Gyros use a rotating disc with 3 12" speakers and 3 tweeters, plus two 15" drivers for bass. In an ideal configuration, I would want to have two of these- one for flutes, and one for diapason, and give them some separation. Surely those cheap KLH speakers aren't going to be remotely appropriate. The sound is much like you would expect of a simple, old organ. It's not very bright, like early digitals were. Instead it is a very vintage, warm analog type of sound, especially if it still has the tube preamp. The power amps were built into the speaker cabinets, so I don't know what he's using to power those KLH speakers. It is also very basic sounding. As you would expect with only two generators, it is hard to get much variety. Things like the trumpet stops just sound like flutes and diapasons playing together.
</p>

Third, feel: The keys are indeed full size, wood core piano keys, no doubt sourced from a piano maker. They do have a springy feel. I would say it is a little heavier, but more solid feeling than the all plastic keys Allen used later. The princess pedal board is a source of endless irritation for me, as it feels too small and too cramped for me to play with my wing-tips, and results in numerous mistakes, though it is easier to play than a Hammond pedal board- for me anyway.</p>

Hope this helps you know more about it. If you have any other questions, let me know. Also, if anyone has any gyro-phonic speakers in good condition, let me know.</p>

-Jon</p>

**Guest** · 04-26-2007, 04:21 PM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Hi, Arie</P>

Hi, Arie</P>

In the interest of accuracy (lol), my statement regarding Allen's synthesis is in fact correct: The pipe samples were analyzed and low-pass filtered to prevent aliesing due to the Nyquist limit which states that any frequency equaling or exceeding one half of the the digitizing sample rate, will result in non recoverable data loss. This was mainly due to the limited sample rate, a result of the slow processors and memory chips available at that time. As you said, one half of the cycle was stored owing to the inherent waveform symmetry and the cost of memory. I spoke to Robert Deutch at the time he developed the system before it was sold to Allen. You can see very interesting details if you obtain copies of his patents, subsequently assigned to Allen. I had interest as I was developing a low distortion frequency synthesizer utilizing sampled waveforms. As far as I know, he did develop a frequency domain synthesis technique which was sold to Yamaha, I think. Of course the Hammond B3 has had this right along.</P>

Allen reminds me of what used to be Hewlett-Packard, manufacturer of the finest electronic test equipment which was designed to be solid, rugged and serviceable and well-engineered. You don't find that kind of quality anymore. Allen is a trueexception.Sound, well I still have 7 ranks of pipe to go with my Allen. Plus I have Dove on the way. Still it has a String Celeste that is very nice and a Tuba (Wurly sample) that is just gorgeous but you still hear the difference when the air machine speaks forth! </P>

Al</P>
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**jbird604** · 04-26-2007, 06:39 PM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Rich,</P>

On the subject of tuning and voicing electronic organs -- it all depends on the organ. For example, a used Rodgers organmade before they went digital around 1990would be a fully analog organ with anywhere from 85 to maybe 300 individual oscillators, depending on how large an organ it is. Each oscillator would have a tuning adjustment, and they do drift out of tune over time, so they need tuning now and then, certainly after a move. The same can be said of all Allen analog organs produced before 1971, every note of every rankis separately tunable.</P>

On the other hand, most digital organs, including Allen organs from 1971 onward and all others from around 1990 onward, do not require routine tuning. Some have a master tuning adjustment which may or may not be user accessible, and which may be permanently locked (crystal-controlled) or actually tunable up and down a bit (a tuning coil of some sort). The MOS 1 & 2 Allen organs had a tuning coil for each computer and there were specific numbers of "beats" to tune the multiple computers apart, for the desired ensemble effect. Later Allen and most other digitals had a single reference clock for the system, and tuning is not critical for these, unless you are trying to match another instrument precisely.</P>

Another class of organs, the "single master oscillator" system, which includes Baldwin classical organs from the early 80's and later, also use a single system clock even though they are not "digital" organs. They cannot get out of tune with themselves, but can be off from A440, requiring adjustment of the master tuning coil.</P>

Other older analog organs, such as Conn organs and the really old Baldwins, among others, will have at least 12 separate tuning coils (for the 12 notes of the chromatic scale), and some, such as Conn, several dozen, as the individual notes are tunable.</P>

As to "voicing" -- and that term is applied somewhat loosely, as its true meaning in pipe organs has more to do with the planning of the tonal scheme -- most organs have at least some rudimentary adjustments, more properly called "finishing" controls. These may be mere volume knobs that adjust the relative loudness of the various audio channels, thus affecting the stop-to-stop balance. Or they may be much more elaborate, as in the case of a Rodgers analog organ, which may have individual rank level controls as well as separate keying level controls for each stop unified off a given rank. These organs also usually have note-by-note leveling for the 32' and 16' stops and some of the reed ranks.Or an analog Allen, many of which had individual leveling pots for each note of each rank.</P>

Early Allen digital organs have basically a tone control and a volume control for each audio channel, and are adjusted more or less to taste, or to best complement the acoustics of a given space. Allen's of the ADC and MDC series have the stops grouped into sets of six or eight, with each group havingtone controls, level controls, and air and chiff adjustments.</P>

Later digital organs by all makers have elaborate controls, often accessible only by using a dedicated computer program, for altering the tone, level, sample quality, scaling, tuning, and other parameters of each stop, and each note of each stop.</P>

So, yes, electronic organs can and do need a tremendous amount of adjustment for best results. On the other hand, many simpler self-contained electronic organs are set up to sound quite good right out of the box and may never need any kind of regulation.</P>

So, it depends on what you get. But you should count on being out some cost for setup and possible repairs, whatever organ you purchase. Hope this helps.</P>

John</P>
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**jbird604** · 04-26-2007, 06:57 PM

Re: Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

Rich -- I failed to answer your question as to how much this setup might cost. Again, it depends on the organ. One example -- the Rodgers 890, a 3-manual, quite large analog that recently was given to my church -- after it was delivered and all the speakers set up and connected, it took me and a helper probably6 hours to tune it and go through all the leveling and voicing adjustments. That would have cost around $750 had I been charging for our services at the usual rates. This, of course, is one end of the spectrum, since this organ had over 200 oscillators to tune and dozens of separate tone and level controls for the various ranks and stops.</P>

A contrasting example -- a self-contained digital organ,fairly new, recently delivered and setup in a small church -- it sounded so perfect that I didn't do anything to it at all except check everything for functionality. The cost for my services was less than $100.</P>

You'll probably be somewhere between these two extremes, though if you got something that needed extensive repairs, the costs could go out the roof.</P>

John</P>

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Help with 1957 Allen C-1 for a New Player

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