Forum Top Banner Ad

Collapse

Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • myorgan
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    [quote user="fredy2"]As an electrical engineer, the use of a
    splitter is for use as a splitting of two signals and NOT as a merger
    of two signals. The driver circuits can fight each other and can
    overload them. You need a MIXER rather than a splitter. If
    you put a series resistor in each of the signals going to the splitter
    that would protect the driving circuit and may actually sound
    better. Use aboout a 1K ohm in each. Some haywire
    fixes work ... for a while but may do long term damageif design
    rules are violated.[/quote]</p>

    Fredy,</p>

    Thank you for your
    concern. I really appreciate it, and am thankful for a "second opinion."</p>

    John
    has been helping me
    temporarily "correct" issues caused by a Rodgers dealer when he
    un-installed the Allen in order to put in his Rodgers. I subsequently
    purchased the Allen and brought it to my church. In the
    absence of 2 of the 4 amps required to hear the entire organ (he took
    out two good amps and replaced them with a defective amp), I had to
    do something until the local authorized Allen repair person can visit
    in approximately a month. Even then, because of his repair
    charges, I can probably only afford the essentials (2 amps, a key
    switch or two, a card reader lamp, and speaker wiring instruction).</p>

    As a result of John's suggestions, I can now hear <u>both</u>
    computers, have tuned the organ (you would not believe how out-of-tune
    it was), and have connected 4 speakers (instead of only two) to provide
    music for a church of about 30-40 people, and for our local symphony
    orchestra later this season.</p>

    I can't believe how good the organ
    sounds, though. Just yesterday, after I got the other two
    speakers connected, I temporarily raised the levels just so I could
    hear it. WOW!!!</p>

    Thanks again for your input.</p>

    Michael</p>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    Fredy,</P>


    The DAC board outputs in an Allen are well-protected and already have series resistors in place just for this possibility. I know of many Allens that are set up this way and I have never seen any indication that it creates a problem or risks damage to the circuitry.</P>


    Your point is well-taken, though, and there are some organs that would not allow the direct mixing of outputs in this way. Just no problem with an Allen DAC. BTW, the stop levels of an Allen MOS organ are set digitally in the computer, so the other function of a mixer -- adjusting relative levels -- is also not needed in this case.</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

    Leave a comment:


  • fredy2
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

    As an electrical engineer, the use of a splitter is for use as a spliting of two signals and NOT as a merger of two signalsto a single one. The driver circuits can fight each other and can overload them. You need a MIXER rather than a splitter. If you put a series resistor in each of the signals going to the splitter that will protect the driving circuits and may actually sound better. Use aboout a 1K ohm in each. Some haywire fixes work ... for a while but may do long term damageif design rules are violated.

    Leave a comment:


  • fredy2
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

    As an electrical engineer, the use of a splitter is for use as a splitting of two signals and NOT as a merger of two signals. The driver circuits can fight each other and can overload them. You need a MIXER rather than a splitter. If you put a series resistor in each of the signals going to the splitter that would protect the driving circuit and may actually sound better. Use aboout a 1K ohm in each. Some haywire fixes work ... for a while but may do long term damageif design rules are violated.

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    Michael,</P>


    You are very welcome to the advice, and I am glad that it has helped your situation. It makes my day to know that you are so happy!</P>


    Allen amps are designed to drive a pair of speakers per channel. Additional speakers are added in parallel with existing speakers. In other words, you run a twisted pair or zip cord to the first speaker (being sure to observe polarity -- black wire to the "common" terminal of both the amp and speaker, white or other color wire to the other teminal). Then run a second twisted pair or zip cord to the second speaker, keeping the polarity the same. You may run this second cable from the amplifier terminals, or you may hook on at the first speaker's terminals. Either way, electrically you arewiring parallel. Failing to observe polarity may result in reduced bass output and peculiar out-phasing of higher frequencies.</P>


    ("Series" wiring would be running the "hot" (not common) lead from the amp to the "hot" of the first speaker, then coming out of that speaker's common terminal, going from there to the "hot" of the second speaker, then coming from the second speaker's common back to common of the amplifier. That style of speaker wiring is not normally used in organ installations, although in the old days Allen recommended a "series-parallel" array of four HC-12 speakers on a single channel of certain models under certain circumstances. They do not recommend such a thing any more.)</P>


    Adding a second speaker to each channel will not double the output. The amplifier will indeed put out a little more current, but not twice as much. The main benefit of adding a second speaker per channel is spreading out the sound source. With a second speaker, the stops will seem less like they are coming out of the box, with more sound reflected from the room boundaries. You can aim the two speakers in different directions, or even have them on opposite sides of the sanctuary.</P>


    When installing a two-channel Allen I generally try to place a speaker for each channel on each side. This is much better than having channel A speak only from the left chamber and channel B only from the right. In your case, having both channels on both sides would be especially beneficial, as the celeste effect is created by the interaction of the two channels. If you had only one channel in each chamber, and the chambers were 30 feet apart, the celeste effect would be very poor except for those listeners who happened to be very nearly equidisant from the two chambers.</P>


    Hope this helps. Keep up the good playing! (I will listen to your recordings. Was too busy this weekend.)</P>


    John</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • myorgan
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

    [quote user="jbird604"]


    You can definitely tune that organ up in a matter of minutes. As you've already seen the tuning instructions, you know what the parameters are. The tuning control will be a small shaft (not much bigger than a toothpick), sticking out of a coil. It is mounted on a board marked "SBA-2" about halfway across the lower section of that board. Of course there are two of these in a 505, and you know how to tune them separately.</P>


    You are most welcome to the free advice. Anything I can do to advance the use and musical enjoyment of my favorite musical instrument![/quote]</P>


    John,</P>


    I have YOU to thank for being able to fix my organ. I added the Y splitters so all 4 channels can use the 2 working amps (until I get 2 more amps installed), and re-tuned the instrument.</P>


    Now, I just need to learn to hook the speakers in either series or parallel to have 2 speakers per existing channel. I can't figure out how to "daisy chain" them, nor do I know what will happen with the sound--will it double in volume, or split the wattage between the two "jumped" speakers.[*-)]</P>


    I have sent you a private message with a couple of links--one is before I did the tuning[:'(], and the other is after (1.5MB &amp; 2.2MB) [:D]. Believe it or not, I did all the recording with the internal microphone of a MacBook computer!</P>


    Again, THANK YOU for all the help. The people in church won't know what hit 'em tomorrow!</P>


    Michael</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    Michael,</P>


    You can definitely tune that organ up in a matter of minutes. As you've already seen the tuning instructions, you know what the parameters are. The tuning control will be a small shaft (not much bigger than a toothpick), sticking out of a coil. It is mounted on a board marked "SBA-2" about halfway across the lower section of that board. Of course there are two of these in a 505, and you know how to tune them separately.</P>


    I assume you have have some kind of suitable tuning device or can zero-beat to another instrument known to be at A440. Of course it doesn't matter if you're right on 440 if the organ doesn't have to be played with another instrument. Just get the two computers tuned together, then shift the "B" computer very slightly sharp, as instructed on the label. You can of course vary this to taste.</P>


    Sounds like a previous tech or owner has done some mischeif, but you should be able to straighten it out. The change of climate should not cause any change in tuning, at least not much. The fault probably lies with the previous fixer-upper.</P>


    This organ should have both bass and treble adjustments on each DAC board, separately for each channel. You can tinker with those if you'd like to try to match the frequency response to the room. As you may know, a lively room needs more treble, and a dead room less. Adjust the bass to taste, and so that the pedal stops do not overwhelm the speaker system.</P>


    The Schalmei 4' on the pedal is an odd little stop that somehow "shares" a sample slot with the 32' flue stop in the pedals, so that both cannot be played at the same time. It's possible that the EPROM in the socket is not fully seated or has a bent pinor is the wrong one for the stop or has become partly de-programmed. But I wouldn't worry about it at this point, if that is the only problem.</P>


    You are most welcome to the free advice. Anything I can do to advance the use and musical enjoyment of my favorite musical instrument!</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

    Leave a comment:


  • myorgan
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

    [quote user="jbird604"] Since you're now operating with only 2 channels, you don't have celestes and you may be missing a few stops that play through a single channel instead of being "doubled" by both computers. You could temporarily get it all working by using some RCA y-cables and routing both outputs of each DAC into a single amp. So, instead of having four channels (L-main, L-flute, R-main, R-flute) you'd only have two (call them combined left and combined right). That would give you the celestes and the chorus effect which are the main benefits of having two computer systems.


    Let me know how it goes.[/quote]</P>


    John,</P>


    You're a lifesaver (not sure what flavor yet)!!! I purchased the Y cables and doubled the computers on the amps after church on Sunday, and the missing stops appeared!!! I'm only missing the 4' Shalmei on the pedal--it's at the wrong pitch, and only partially there. But that's the least of my worries.</P>


    I'm sure you can guess what happened next, though. Whoever the [:@]@#$% person was that fooled with it last, managed to tune the computers so the Mixture II in the pedal (shared between channels 2 &amp; 3) is out of tune with itself![:O] I have to turn the Celeste Tuning <U>AND</U> Chorus Tuning on just to get it somewhere close to being in tune with itself. I must say, though, the strings were certainly livened up. They'll be nice when I get it working better.</P>


    Evidently, the last person didn't read the instructions on the back of the computer board panel which tells one to turn one computer off to tune the organ, then to tune the 2nd computer a few cents sharp. Oh, well. I didn't fix it because I couldn't figure out which thing to turn to re-tune the organ. I may just have to unplug the 2nd and 3rd channels for next week's service until I can fix it.</P>


    Could it be the temperature and climate change from NC to Maine that would cause it to de-tune so badly? I didn't think computers were that volatile?</P>


    If I were to take a close-up picture of the boards, would you be able to tell me what to tune? I'm sure I could do it, as I used to voice some of the later Allens for the local dealer--just never met the inside of a MOS before.</P>


    I feel guilty asking all this free advice. [A]You're an angel[A] of the first order!!! Thanks for everything.</P>


    Michael</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    Michael,</P>


    That's a nice-looking Allen. I really like the white paint accents. Makes it stand out from the crowd!</P>


    The dual amp that is in there in place of a pair of S-100's may actually not be a problem. When Allen quit making the S-100 they offered ADC amps configured to accomodate anyreplacement purpose. Perhaps two of the S-100's failed and a tech put in the ADC along with a pre-amp kit (or other equipment that Allen would have sent for using an ADC amp in a MOS organ). If that is the case, you don't need to buy anything else, but you need to find out why it's not working correctly now.</P>


    To my eyes, your photos seem to show a lot of extraneous wiring and stuff. Allen has always been obsessive about tidiness, with wires being tied down in straight lines, nothing hanging loose. That makes me think that there has been some less-than-professional monkey business. It may take a dedicated and experienced Allen tech to fully disentangle everything. Someone who is familiar with MOS technology too. Many of the newer techs are not well-versed in the early digitals.</P>


    Since you're now operating with only 2 channels, you don't have celestes and you may be missing a few stops that play through a single channel instead of being "doubled" by both computers. You could temporarily get it all working by using some RCA y-cables and routing both outputs of each DAC into a single amp. So, instead of having four channels (L-main, L-flute, R-main, R-flute) you'd only have two (call them combined left and combined right). That would give you the celestes and the chorus effect which are the main benefits of having two computer systems.</P>


    If the church is not terribly large, that might even be enough audio, especially if you put a pair of good quality speakers on each amp. If you nowhave only one pair ofHC-12 speakers, you'd need to get another pair just like them, as they have a pretty specific tonal balance. I wouldn't pair them with HC-15 or any other Allen design except possibly the HC-9, which was designed as a volume booster for HC-12's.</P>


    Let me know how it goes.</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

    Leave a comment:


  • myorgan
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    John,</P>


    Posted photos in my gallery here on the Organ Forum. I'd certainly like to know what you think--I've come to respect youropinion.</P>


    Hope to hear from you soon.</P>


    Michael</P>


    [quote user="jbird604"] </P>


    Michael,</P>


    You might just tell the guy that you have "x" amount of money for ageneral checkup of this organ, and ask him what he could do for that amount. (I assume we're talking about the 505.) I'm like Arie, even though I'm a fully authorized Allen tech, I couldn't charge that kind of money. I think he's bluffing a little.</P>


    But he might be willing to work you in next time he's passing nearby for a nominal fee. If he really knows his stuff, a couple hundred dollars worth of his time might do you a lot of good.</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>[/quote]

    Leave a comment:


  • myorgan
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

    [quote user="Organmaster007x"]


    Actually I recently got my Rodgers 100 Organ serviced. For 100 dollars (plus 50 for the reverb unit) I got:
    </P>


    1) Technician drove in 4 hours away</P>


    Your problem may be more expensive...I don't know[/quote]</P>


    WOW!!!!! I guess I need to have you there when I get my organ repaired! His quote was for hours of labor and driving time ONLY. Materials are extra![:'(]</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest
    Guest replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    Actually I recently got my Rodgers 100 Organ serviced. For 100 dollars (plus 50 for the reverb unit) I got:
    </p>

    1) Technician drove in 4 hours away</p>

    2) Fixed my Leslie speaker</p>

    3) Installed an Alesis NanoVerb unit and mounted it under the organ. </p>

    The only catch is that he was driving into the city anyway that day.</p>

    He was in my apartment for 2 hours. </p>

    Your problem may be more expensive...I don't know
    </p>


    </p>

    Leave a comment:


  • jbird604
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?

    [quote user="arie v"]


    I do know that Allen techs generally charge the highest in the industry. Why I am not sure.</P>


    [/quote]</P>


    Why, Arie, it's because we're worth it!</P>


    John</P>

    Leave a comment:


  • arie v
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    I can only speak for myself here, but I can tell you, up here in Canada churches here especially do not have much money as a rule. Generally they are more than happy to wait a few weeks while I organize a service trip involving a number of calls. I could then never sock them with a bill of $1,000 to fix a minor problem. </p>

    I do know that Allen techs generally charge the highest in the industry. Why I am not sure. I do know that they are busier than the Maytag man used to be.</p>

    If the Allen tech you refer to actually did this, I would hope it bothers his conscience.</p>

    AV</p>

    Leave a comment:


  • clumber
    replied
    Re: Reducing Service Repair Costs--How?



    &gt;&gt; Seriously, if you can exercise some patience, arrange to have the tech
    come by when he is doing a service loop. That way the travel portion
    of the bill can be shared with several other clients.</p>

    A friend who plays an Allen at her church told me that her Allen dealer, on a "service loop" charged each of the churches the complete round trip travel. How's that for pumping up the bill?</p>

    I don't know if that was a mistake or just SOP for this tech group in its billing.</p>

    Anyone else seen that sort of practice?</p>

    Andy
    </p>

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X