Rodgers Royal V (Virgil Fox's big 5 manual Rodgers analog, since converted to digital)

[circa1949]

WOW...thanks everybody



I'm impressed by the wealth of knowledge here. I love reading about the old beasties be they Allen or Rodgers.
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Back to the gutting of Royal V. My concern is not so much that the old technology is lost to posterity, although that is a concern, but simply the gross tastelessness of it. As someone noted, there's a standard 5 manual Trillium model: why not just buy that, and sell the Royal V to an enthusiast who would have restored the analog electronics. What is the point of crowing about "look, we have the shell of one of the largest analog organs built" - what does that prove? But it's all relative, and the more I read about organs and how they are perpetually modified, I realize that many involved bodies - the organists, the churches, the owners, simply view them as utilitarian devices. Everyone but the organ historians, who have won out in some cases but not all. I think a far greater tragedy than the trashing of Royal V is the impending trashing of the National Cathedral instrument, but there's a thread for that elsewhere. I simply use it as an example to say, almost no organ, apparently, that is less that 100 years old is considered worthy for historical preservation.</p>

Somehow I'm reminded of the Williamsburg Theater, I luckily attended W&amp;M when it was still a functioning movie theater, as built. It had the first air-conditioner in a public building in the state of Virginia, a Carrier model 1 still functioning as of the late 90s, and scads of other vintage technology when I was lucky enough to get to see. So you had a true vintage 1930s RKO single screen movie house...a total rarity to still be existing in that condition...but then the Wmbg foundation decided it wasn't making enough money and completely gutted and reconfigured the inside for live performances. It's not just that they wanted to update the systems...that would have been understandable...but they made irreversible stylistic and structural changes. So ironically an organization supposedly entrusted with preserving its history decided that part of its own meta-history wasn't worth preserving. (they also scrapped the 30s style lunch counter in an adjacent building) And I think churches often have this view of their [pipe] organs.
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[circa1949]

the REAL largest analog organ ever



Does anybody know what happened to the 40 oscillator rank Allen at Tenth Presbyterian in Philadelphia? Did anybody hear that instrument? It had to be fantastic. Recordings?

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[MarkS]

Re: the REAL largest analog organ ever



The church website indicates that they are planning for a harpsichord and pipe organ.</P>


They webcast a service live every Sunday morning so you may be able to hear the organ. www.tenth.org</P>


The Allen was larger than the big vacuum tube one at First Presbyterian, Stamford, CT (30 sets), the Rodgers Royal V (reportedly 28 sets), and the Saville at the Auditorium Theater, Chicago. (The Saville was claimed to be the largest when it was installed.) The First Presbyterian organ was for sale a number of years ago (replaced by a Visser-Rowland) and I believe the Saville was dispersed long ago. There was a big vacuum tube Allen, ca. 1957, at a Lutheran church here in Chicago. According to the local dealer it was 24 sets of generators, one just producing chiff. It was lost in a fire years ago. The church rebuilt but the congregation dissolved a few weeks ago.</P>


If you tune in to the webcast let us know what you hear.</P>

[Vercus]

Re: the REAL largest analog organ ever



Hello,</p>

I checked the website, and they have service archives that you can listen to any time. You just have to scroll down further to find it. As expected, the audio quality is not good. Even so, it still sounds like a mighty and impressive organ! It seems to have much more tonal variety than any Allen analog I've heard before. I guess that is to be expected with that many ranks of oscillators. I think analog organs really had something right when it came to getting that full lush sound of pipe organs.</p>

If you listen to the service from 2/18/07, at about 42:00, there is a lovely violin solo over the organ that I am enjoying right now. I really enjoy solo violin, and think that any church who has a skilled player is truly blessed.</p>

I would like to hear it in person. I am about 2 hours away from Philly. Perhaps one day I'll try to see if I can get over there to hear it, and maybe talk to the organist afterwards.</p>

-Jon</p>

[arie v]

Re: the REAL largest analog organ ever



Hi,</p>

The big Allen in 10th Presbyterian, is no longer a fully analog organ. In the late 80s, it was re-built by Allen, and if memory serves me right, they got a new combo action, and a number of stops were changed to digital. I remember reading somewhere, that someone went and tried the instrument and thought the analog sounds were as good or better than the custom digital stops. I will see if I can dig up some more info. on this instrument.</p>

10th Presbyterian is planning on getting a pipe organ. (in the fullness of time of course)</p>

AV</p>

[circa1949]

Re: the REAL largest analog organ ever



Arie, fascinating as usual. If I had found out that organ was still fully analog, believe me I would have been in church Sunday morning to hear it. Philly isn't far from where I live. As it is it might be interesting to listen to it so I plan to check out the archives.</p>

I had no idea they even still had most of it - I reckoned it would have been completely replaced by something else by now.</p>

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[David Snyder Lumierist]

As I recall the facts of The Rodgers 2 five manual instruments

[quote user="arie v"]About respecting a legend, what about Virgil and Riverside. The Riverside organ has been so fussed over, that it is now substantially different from the way Virgil signed off on it in the 50s. I don't think at this point, the curators of that organ really care about how Virgil wanted that organ. They, for the last 35 years have only wanted to make it a better organ. And I believe it is overall a better organ now. I think Virgil might even approve of the changes if he were around.

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The Riverside organ had to evolve, as the room is so acoustically different from when Virgil was there. It was not a question of complying with the whims of an organist or curator, but simply one ofachieving proper balance after miles of Guastavino tile was sealed.</P>


I understand Jon's point completely. If an instrument is closely allied to one of the most gifted performers of our Art, then it is a loss to modify that instrument after the artist is deceased. This is especially true with a unique or rare instrument.</P>


Its no different with the Cavaillé-Coll at Sainte-Clotilde, where Franck was organist. Now modified three times (by each successive titulaire), wewill never know what the various balances/timbres would have been liketo Franckhimself - an immeasurable loss for pedagogy.</P>


It sounds however as if this particular Rodgers and Virgil Fox were not together for very long...</P>[/QUOTE]

[Rick Reed]

Possible answer to your question

I had read that the Royal V had a lot of trouble with it, in a book by Ted Alan Worth about Virgil Fox. My guess is that it was basically a lemon in automotive terms, where it wasn't working right and was always needing repairs, from what I had read, and between repairs to the organ and what it cost for the travel, they felt it wasn't worth it. I remember reading it, but they may have been referring to one of the other ones, not the Royal V, and I don't remember for sure.

Jon,</p>

I'm puzzled by your post here.</p>

This Royal V was only used by V. Fox for maybe a year, when Rodgers decided to pull the travelling road show. I don't know what happened to it right after that, but around 1980 it was Crystal Cathedral and used for Virgil Fox's funeral. After the pipe organ went in at Crystal Cathedral, the Royal V, went back to the Rodger's factory for complete refurbishing. My guess is that at least some of Virgil's ideas were changed. Why an organ like that needs refurbishing after being less than 10 years old, I don't know. The organ then went to a Buddhist temple in Japan. The organ was probably in need of some work by 2003. By then the organ would have been nigh near 30 years old.</p>

The reasons for a complete re-build I don't know, but I would venture to say the new electronics and audio will sound noticeably better than the old analog stuff. Even the analog tone generation from the late 80s that Rodgers was putting out sounded better on a stop for stop basis than the early to mid 70s stuff in the Royal V. I'm also sure that Rodgers would have put in sufficient hardware and processing power to prevent crashes.</p>

I'm not sure where you get the idea that every digital sounds like every other one. They don't. Each company has it's own tonal palette. Each company has strengths and weaknesses, both on a per stop level as well as ensemble buildup. I'm sure you wouldn't say that your upcoming Allen project sounds like every other digital out there including Rodgers.</p>

About respecting a legend, what about Virgil and Riverside. The Riverside organ has been so fussed over, that it is now substantially different from the way Virgil signed off on it in the 50s. I don't think at this point, the curators of that organ really care about how Virgil wanted that organ. They, for the last 35 years have only wanted to make it a better organ. And I believe it is overall a better organ now. I think Virgil might even approve of the changes if he were around.</p>

AV
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