Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?

[Guest]

For quite a while now I've been mulling over buying a digital instrument for home practice purposes. Given the fact that I'm shortly to resign my church position, my mulling is increasing. While the budget doesn't really exist at the moment, somewhere in my head I was thinking of a €15,000 limit. I'm based in Dublin (the Irish one!) so US digitals are not an option (and US prices not representative!)</p>

From my brief looking round the web it seems that both Phoenix (N. Ireland) and Wyvern (England) might be the right kind of thing, but in truth I have no idea what I'm dealing with. I don't think I've ever played a "good" digital in my life -- any Allens I've played on in churches have been really grim and nothing at all like the real thing -- so obviously I'd have to look very closely and audition extensively before I made any kind of decision. In the meantime has anyone got any experience with either of these makes? Are they satisfying to play on any level? I'm a reasonably advanced player, and the organ would be used to learn fairly serious repertoire, rather than bashing out hymns or whatever.</p>

Any thoughts?</p>

Si
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[nullogik]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



I've listened to Phoenix's recordings and find them quite impressive -they are regarded as producing a better tone than some of the more popular makes. </P>


Of course, you can't go on what people tell you, you really need to experience one for yourself - as well as experiencinga wide range of other makes too.</P>


As for Wyvern I hear that their cheaper models were/still are made by Content and sound quite inferior. Their higher end models are based around Phoenix technology so like the Phoenix ones they sound very good. However, for essentially the same organ, you'll most likely find it cheaper to buy direct from Phoenix if you're going for a highish-end one, rather than a Wyvern with Phoenix innerds.</P>


How about investigating some of the other European makes? There is no harm in looking at other makes such as Viscount, Ahlborn Galanti, Makin (UK based company), Johannus etc. all of which produce a good sound and come in cheaper than their US or UK counterparts. </P>


You might be pleasantly surprised by some of these other makes...as others on here have found. If you look back you'll see some good reviews on the modern Johannus products in particular as well as Viscount and Ahlborn Galanti.</P>


As for Allens sounding not too good. Well they probably aren't up there with Phoenix for realism, but if you read through the various threads here you'll soon see that a poor installation can spoil the best of organs - even a Phoenix. There are plenty of people who have heard a well installed Allen and have been impressed by the sound - likewise others have found the same model in a poor installation to sound pretty sterile, flat and boring.So along with sound quality, the way the instrument is installed is the next most important factor to remember.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



Thanks nullogik, lots of food for thought there.</p>

I agree that the installations were almost certainly to blame for the poor results I've encountered thusfar. I think I've only ever played 3 digital organs in my life, and then only for one service each. They're so uncommon in my stomping grounds, that I wouldn't be surprised at all if poor installation is a problem.</p>

I didn't know that about Wyverns having Phoenix innards. I was looking at their website earlier and eyeing the Toccata model, but as you say if all I'm getting is Phoenix technology then I might as well go for Phoenix. I too have heard the recordings and been impressed.</p>

Thanks also for your other suggestions. If the time ever comes to move from mulling to buying, I would definitely check out a wide range of manufacturers.</p>

Si

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[MarkS]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?

Also, Allen has been digital since 1971 so the organs may be very old.  How many times have I heard someone say that the new Brand X at St. Ciphers is so much better than the Allen at St. Harmonicas--and then realized they were comparing a new organ with the latest technology with an Allen that is twenty, or even thirty years old.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Since digital organs are rare, you may want to stay close to home.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></DIV>

[Guest]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?

<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Simon<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm up in NI and I have been looking around for a new organ for our church. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Try:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">http://www.cormontmusic.com/ for Allen (I'm going to see them tomorrow).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">http://hendersonmusicireland.com/page.homefor Makin &amp; Johannus (Was there on Saturday)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">http://www.phoenix-organs.co.uk/ Stephen Hamill runs this firm in NI, he is one of the two founders. He doesn't have a showroom<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Henderson</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">'s would be a long drive for you, but Cormont is only up the road now that the M1 is open.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now for some quid-pro-quo. Can you recommend a good piano shop or shops in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Dublin</st1:place></st1:City>?</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m after a 7 foot Kawai,Yamaha or a reconditioned Steinway or similar. </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">David<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[Guest]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



Thanks David. I actually spoke to Stephen Hamill a few months ago and he invited me to play some instruments up there any time I'm aroundt, which is an offer I intend to cash in at some future point. I have a leaning towards Phoenix from what I've read and heard, but I must look elsewhere also!</p>

Regarding pianos, I've never personally bought a piano of any note, but the obvious answer to your query is Pianos Plus, just off the M50. I believe they are the main dealers for Kawai, Yamaha and Steinway pianos, and they have an excellent reputation. Website is here

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[nullogik]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



[quote user="SimonS"] I didn't know that about Wyverns having Phoenix innards. I was looking at their website earlier and eyeing the Toccata model, but as you say if all I'm getting is Phoenix technology then I might as well go for Phoenix. I too have heard the recordings and been impressed.[/quote]</P>


I'm not sure whether the "Toccata" model is Phoenix or Content technology so you'll have to ask. If its made by Content, then its probably not going to sound that great - still worth a listen though.</P>


In which case if you're budget can't stretch to Phoenix technology then one of the other European makers that I mentioned earliershould be seriously considered (Johannus, Viscount, Alhborn Galanti etc.)</P>

[njschranz]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



If you are going to check out other European makers, don't forget Eminent. They have many installations in the UK. Check them out at their main website: www.eminentorgans.nl or at the UK dealer website: www.cathedralorgans.com </P>


Don</P>

[dhm]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



As others have already mentioned, Wyvern's "standard" models are made by Content in Holland and re-badged, though they do use some English samples. Their custom jobs use Phoenix technology, but they charge a premium for it. If you want Phoenix, buy direct from Phoenix. IMHO none of the European or US mass-producers beats Phoenix for quality of sound, nor for quality of console; they are actually very reasonably priced and excellent value for money.</P>


Ishould add that I am neither a Phoenix agent nor customer. If I hadn't discovered Hauptwerk (which beats all of the above hands-down) I might have gone to Phoenix if I could have afforded it. Content would probably have been my next preference. All the others leave me fairly unmoved.</P>

[radagast]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?

[quote user="nullogik"]
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How about investigating some of the other European makes? There is no harm in looking at other makes such as Viscount, Ahlborn Galanti, Makin (UK based company), Johannus etc. all of which produce a good sound and come in cheaper than their US or UK counterparts. </P>


[/quote]</P>


How about Hoffrichter?</P>

[Guest]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?

[quote user="dhm"]


If I hadn't discovered Hauptwerk (which beats all of the above hands-down) I might have gone to Phoenix if I could have afforded it. Content would probably have been my next preference. All the others leave me fairly unmoved.[/quote]</P>


Phoenix was a bit over my budget, at least for what I wanted, and I came a signature on the dotted lineaway from plunking down a considerable sum for a Johannus 3-manual Rembrandt some years ago. Best decision I made was to leave my money in the bank and just continue to play the old Rodgers analog. I finally had a chance to play a Rembrandt in a house installation, and that sealed the no-deal.</P>


Then early last year I discovered Hauptwerk, and the rest (of the organs, too) is history :)</P>

[Guest]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?

Question about Hauptwerk: what do you do for a console? I've read a little bit, but I can never get a flavour of whether this is something I should be actively considering, or just too much hassle. Are there suitable consoles with a decent tracker-style touch that you can use with Hauptwerk?

[nullogik]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



[quote user="radagast"]</P>


How about Hoffrichter?[/quote]</P>


Who?? Never heard of them until I Googled them, which is why I didn't include them in my list.</P>


Actually now that we're going on a tangent regarding Hauptwerk as an alternative, it seems that Hoffrichter provide preassembled kits for Hauptwerk - might be worth looking at: http://www.hoffrichter-organs.co.uk/html/products.html</P>


</P>


Ok its not the prettiest solution but will take the hassle of locating you're own components to build a complete system.</P>


If you do want to select you're own components then http://www.midiworks.ca/articles/Hauptwerk.aspis well worth a look. They do the whole lot in a kit or you can buy whatever components you want. Note that they are located in Canada - I've never used them but other people here in this forum have so they'll be best placed to tell you about quality, customer service, postage etc.</P>
<P mce_keep="true">If you have lots of cash, then I'm sure Laukhuff do a Hauptwerk or MIDI system. They also make keyboards for pipe organs which include tracker touch so they're worth a look too. http://www.laukhuff.de/english/produ_e.html</P>

[dhm]

Re: Any experience with Phoenix or Wyvern in the UK?



For the benefit of recently-joined members I should have come clean and confessed that (as longer-standing members will already know) I am Hoffrichter'sUK agent and English-speaking contact. Most list members will know that there have been problems (for a number of reasons) with delayed deliveries, less than perfect customer service, etc. However, the quality of workmanship is excellent. I plan to visit him next week to try to solve problems and work out a modus operandi for the future. It is likely that, after that visit, I may have some kit for immediate delivery. I am also talking to the folks in Canada about representation in Europe. Watch this space.</P>


Laukhuff, AFAIK, will only sell to the trade.</P>