Need Some advice about an Allen ADC-6000-DKC

[Rick Jay]

Greetings,

I have been reading these forums for the past year or so and am quite impressed with the wealth of information presented. Thank you.

I am an organist at our church and have been casually looking to replace our aging Allen TC-1. Yes, TC-1. It actually still works, has a few quirks in it, but considering it's about a year older than I am, I think it's in better shape!!! LOL

Anyway, while perusing the internet for more than a year, an Allen ADC-6000-DKC drawknob organ has popped up which is actually close enough (2 1/2 hour drive) for me to test out. Now, this is WAY more organ than our small church would need. To be honest, the main reason I'm looking to upgrade is for the integrated "pitch shifter" (congregation is getting older and can't hit the high notes and transposing some of the hymns isn't always a cakewalk). But most of the organs which I see are multiple 100's, if not 1000's of miles away. So this one is of interest due to it's proximity. Plus, it looks like it would be A LOT OF FUN to play. The church has the funds to purchase it, and I was even willing to offer to buy it and donate it to the church just for the opportunity to play something like this. I've played similar Allen's, on occasion, in other churches and have always left them wishing I had one to play on a regular basis.

I am scheduled to give it a look-see this coming Tuesday. Here's a snippet of the online ad for the organ: "Comes with matching bench, music rack and 16 speakers (12 Allen and 4 Behringer) with all cabling. Also factory equipped with MIDI and card reader. Perfect for a small-to-medium size church or for the serious organist in their home." It is in his home and he states it's in excellent condition.

My main question to all of your knowledgeable people is: What should I be looking for when I go to inspect/play it in a few days?

I'm reasonably certain we can agree on a price assuming it is as the ad portrays. So, as I said above, I'm wondering what questions should I ask, what should I actually do to test as many features as possible, is there some common "failure" with this series I should be aware of. I know about the battery leakage issue. Would I be out of line to open up the back and look for any damage from leakage over the years? Would it be obvious?

I am an electrical engineer, so electronic things don't scare me, but I am rather new to the world of "Allen" electronics. I literally have had to do nothing to our TC-1 in the 27 years I've been with this church playing it, almost every Sunday.

I appreciate any help or advice you can offer.

Thank you,

~Rick

[AllenAnalog]

I saw that ad for the 6000 but can't find it now. Michael (myorgan on here) has a 6000 he uses for the symphony so I'm sure he will chime in here.

The ADC-6000-DKC comes in the "C" size console, so it is big. There are 56 stops with 68 equivalent ranks. It has a seven channel sound system. When I read about the number of speakers in the listing for the instrument I presumed that some of the channels had doubled or antiphonal speakers but I'm not sure why you would need that in a residence. So if you stick with one speaker per channel you should be able to fit it in a smaller space. The original configuration had HC-12 speakers on all channels but if it is a later instrument it could have some HC-15s.

The standard configuration had all of the amplifiers inside the console but there was an option for an external amplifier rack and also a subwoofer channel.

I would test each key, each stop, the crescendo, the tuttis, the pistons and the toe studs. If you have followed this forum for a while you have probably read that the crescendo pedal can develop some scratchy noises. Don't let that deter you from the purchase. At this point in their life it is almost a given that this will be a problem on an ADC instrument.

You should be able to set combinations on the pistons - both A and B memories. The card reader should read data into both of the alterable stops and produce sounds that match the voice description. There may be a factory reverb option. The fact that it has MIDI is icing on the cake. Test it if you can.

As far as batteries, YES you should check them. Not doing so might result in buying something with problems down the road. Take the back off and look at the battery on the capture board. It should be on the right (looking from the back) swing-out panel. If it looks good, just plan on replacing it after you buy the organ.

The battery on the alterable voice memory card is a bit trickier to check and may test the willingness of the seller to let you dig deeper into the organ guts. You need to take out about 14 screws to remove the cover from the card cage. (Don't lose one in the carpet like I did.)

The AV-1 card should be in slot 22 on the right. The simple thing to do is to shine a very bright flashlight into the cage to see if there is any sign of battery leakage. IF the owner is willing, and with the organ turned off, pull the card out and inspect it. Be sure you are grounded when doing this. This process will dump the memory of the Alterable Voices but will cause no other issues. Be careful when re-seating the board back into the cage.

Now if you are really lucky, someone may have already moved both of these batteries from their PC boards and installed replacements remote to the PC boards.

Good luck! If all works out you will have a really nice organ to replace that incredibly durable TC-1. Let us know what you find.

[Rick Jay]

Larry,

Thank you so much for that incredibly informative reply. I really do appreciate it!!!

His ad was on eBay for just a short time, a few days, I think, but it's been on the local Craigslists in our area since at least November. I think he tried the eBay option just to see what response he'd get on a national basis.

Anyway, I believe that most of the speakers are stored in his basement and he has a smaller combination of them connected to the organ in his house. I don't know the history of the organ before he acquired it. I felt the same way about the MIDI being a nice added touch.

The owner seems sincere in my correspondence with him so I believe he's been upfront with everything he's stated, but a visual inspection and testing on Tuesday will verify much of that. I don't know if he'll feel comfortable with me opening up the cage, but I will ask. Hey, if it looks good up until that point, if I lose a screw in the carpet, I guess I'll just have to buy it! LOL

In regards to the "scratchy noise from the crescendo pedal"....funny you should mention that. Our TC-1 doesn't have a crescendo pedal, but it does have two knobs on the right of the console which do something similar, and they're scratchy. IF I we were going to keep the TC-1 much longer, I'd probably fix those, but to date, it hasn't ever been a show-stopper. Actually, truth be known, I've used the "scratchy" to help convince some in the church the organ might need to be replaced soon! <devious grin> :-)

I do have another question: Is there a service manual/set up manual available? I did pay the $10 to download an "Owner's Manual" from Allen for it. It's kind of lame in terms of it's content, I'd like to find something more technical.

Thanks again for your informative and prompt reply!

~Rick

[don60]

No service manual for the ADC series organs is available to the general public--not yet. Service information is proprietary for dealers and Allen technicians only. If you have a specific question, some Forum members with Allen affiliation have been known to accidentally email pdfs of the required information.

[Admin]

I'll add to that by saying the ADC service manuals do not include schematics or other information that would enable to you take make component level repairs. They are designed to facilitate board level replacement.

[AllenAnalog]

The Allen ADC era organs are in what I would describe as a golden period of being maintainable by owners with help from people on this forum. One reason is the building-block "Universal System" that Allen used for this era instrument.

Another reason is that some ADC instruments are being parted out and some NOS spare parts stocks are showing up - both on ebay. Due to the card cage system of tone generation, troubleshooting for someone with a tech background like you is quite do-able. Newer organs with "magic boxes" that do everything are not so much so. And, as you have seen with your TC-1, Allen organs are built to last for decades.

The most important piece of technical information for the instrument, that should be with the organ - often in in a pocket inside the organ, is the cage chart. This critical document shows which voices are handled by which cards and which amplifier channel each sound goes to. It is your guide to voicing the organ since there are bass, treble, midrange and gain pots on the edge of each tone generator card. There is also a written guide for a step-by-step voicing process for each ADC model so there should be one specific to the 6000.

You will probably want to make some voicing changes once you get the organ speakers set up in the room. If these two documents do not come with the organ, I'm sure one of the other ADC-6000 owners on here can help you with a copy.

You should also check the cones and surrounds on the speakers, especially the mid-range drivers. They may have foam rot.

P.S. I forgot to mention testing the transposer switch. But, duh, that's one of the reasons you want this instrument so I'm sure it was already on your list.

[Larrytow]

Rick, Welcome to the Forum !

First of all, Get the Organ !! As an owner of a 6000 ( but not a drawknob one, unfortunately ), I can say with no reservations that it will be a wonderful instrument for your church. You will enjoy playing it so much, with all the voices to choose from. If you have the room in the church for the console then I would not worry about where to put the all the speakers - that can be worked out.

I can pretty much guarantee that your congregational singing will improve once you have it up and going. Do not worry about it being "too much" organ; it is not needed to use all of it at all times obviously. The flexibility of many different registrations available ( compared to a TC-1 or a lot of other organs as well ) is so handy. And with a digital, you can use pretty full combinations at any volume level you like. You will have plenty of reserve for big festival days when the church is full though.

AllenAnalog Larry covered all the things you will want to look at when you inspect it, and he gave great advice as usual. To repeat the one important thing he said though : here on the Forum you have available a vast pool of good advice from helpful members who know and love the ADC organs. If you should need it, I already have my 6000 voicing chart scanned to PDF - just PM me.

[jbird604]

Yes, I believe everything has been covered well -- batteries, speaker cones, general operational testing. Once it's moved, you will want to explore doing an extensive cleanup, routine maintenance procedure, thorough voicing. Going over all that often clears up minor problems, such as a bit of intermittency or scratchiness in some channels due to the pots needing "exercise" every few years.

As someone mentioned, the drawknob console is Big. Make that BIG or maybe B-I-G!!! That is the Allen "C" style console, possibly the largest general production model organ console of all times from any builder. Did I say it's Big? Yes, big as a small automobile. 42" deep at the side arms, so you MUST have a huge door to bring it through. If your church has double doors, you are fine though. Plan on giving it about a 7' x 7' spot in the church, just for the console, pedals, and bench, plus plenty of room behind for servicing. It is also HEAVY, so have a half-dozen or more Olympic body-builders lined up to do the toting. This is NOT a DIY move.

I'd venture to guess that the 16 HC cabinets represent a doubled set of HC-15's for the 7 primary channels plus two subwoofers for the bass boost channel. You can obviously get by with only half of them if you place them well. You do want to be able to hear all the divisions from the bench, so you should keep them all in fairly close proximity. Keep the swell and choir division pairs close to each other.

The four "Behringer" speakers mentioned could be the owner's working setup for home playing. It is always possible to mix channels together (though that takes away from the effect of the multiple tone sources), so he may have had the channels blended down to just four for practicing. That may or may not sound acceptable to you. I'm sure it will not be ideal, but could work if it were your only choice.

[Rick Jay]

Again, I wish to thank you all for your valuable information. I've been searching these forums gathering little tidbits here and there. You guys have nicely laid out much of what I read (or remember anyway), but also added some great support information.

I am getting psyched about seeing this organ. I did a bit of "internet snooping" on the seller, and as it turns out, I believe he is (or was) a member of these forums at one time, and he is (or was) also a member of the American Institute of Organ Builders. The bottom line is I believe that the seller of this organ is sincere and that this organ has probably received above average care and attention.

I will DEFINITELY take advantage of the wisdom on this forum. :-) I'm active on tractor and RV forums and have always appreciated the information I received from their members, and then, eventually, being able to give back to help out others. I think they're a great way to help other like-minded folks.

Again, thanks to all who took time to respond. I'll certainly keep posting as additional questions arise and then a recap of my trip on Tuesday.

~Rick

P.S. Larrytow, I noticed in your instrument list in your signature you show a Hammond Concorde. The first time I played one was about 1973/4ish. I was 13-14. My organ at the time was a Hammond M-100. I forgot the exact price of the Concorde, but I remember my dad had just recently purchased a top-of-the-line, fully loaded, full sized Pontiac and that the price of the organ rivaled that of his new car. Silly, day-dreaming teenager that I was, I remember trying to figure out how many gigs (accordion gigs at the time) & church services I would have to play to save up enough to buy one. LOL I never did get one as I went the more "portable route" with my equipment as needed for my night-club & wedding gigs. Interestingly, my dad's car, however, IS still in his garage. And I did inherit my uncle's Hammond B-2, so the story has a happy ending! :-)

[myorgan]

Rick,

You don't mention your approximate location, but I may be near you (w/in 2 hours or so--depending on the direction). I have an ADC-6000 for the Symphony and have all the materials in PDF documents, so feel free to ask, should you decide to purchase it.

John (jbird604) exaggerates slightly. My ADC-6000 is in the D-console, and two of us moved it onto a rolling platform I built. I lifted an end myself. However, my ADC-8000 is drawknob (and slightly heavier than the one you're looking at), and again, two of us loaded the organ onto dollies and into a U-Haul truck for transport across the country. I'm not particularly strong (haven broken my back in the past), but I can lift an end. Half a dozen people would certainly make the moving easier.

If you believe the organ is too large for your church, please PM me, as I might have a lead on a MOS-2 instrument you may be interested in. It is also a drawknob organ.

Best of luck with your search, and don't let the sight of that beast entice you to make rash decisions.

Michael

[Rick Jay]

Hi Michael,

I took John's "Big" comments with a few grains of salt, but I also know from my research on these forums that he is VERY knowledgeable about what he speaks, so I give his words merit. There are times when "size matters", though I don't think this is one of them.

THAT said, I KNOW we can get that sucker to fit into the church. The church is actually average size for churches in our town, it could easily handle 200 - 250 people, maybe more, but I've never seen it with more than about 150 or so. It's the weekly congregation that's small (20-40)! LOL To be honest, I've always wondered how they've been able to pay me all these years! LOL Anyway, I know I can make the space for it, but thanks to John's comments, I WILL bring a tape measure with me so I can start making plans SHOULD I decide to purchase it.

The owner says he has sliding doors through which the organ fits and our church has double doors and there are literally 0 steps into the church. I have thought about renting a lift-gate truck to move it, and possibly just hiring some "muscle" from a moving company in the town where the organ is located to help load it up. We can get plenty of muscle here locally at our end. And I have a couple of dollies I made for some tractor implements I have that I can use for the organ. They'll easily handle 1,000 lbs. each, so they should work. I believe they're about 5' x 2' with metal caster wheels. They might be 6', though, cause most of my tractor implements are 5' wide. Anyway, I think I'm covered there. Still, the financial people at the church didn't balk about the estimate to move it, so part of me says "Why kill myself?" LOL

"Rash decisions", huh? :-) I'm the type of person that will analyze a purchase TO DEATH! It drives my wife nuts. Of course, in the end, she usually just says "Buy the danged thing and be over it!!!" So, there might be a method to my madness. I will admit that part of my reasoning for wanting this organ is personal, and perhaps even a bit selfish. I WANT a three manual organ. I think it's a good match for my abilities. I KNOW I could be playing at a much larger church probably making more money, but these people are so nice to me and my family, we feel comfortable there. So I don't really want to play for a larger church. I've been playing since I was 9, and have been playing in churches since I was 13. (HOLY COW!!! That's 45 years!!!!!!) Anyway, this one is available, it's nearby, the owner seems quite decent from his correspondence, so I'll give it good going over and make a decision.

There have been times when the church has a special service with good attendance and the congregation just about drowns out the lowly TC-1. So it would be nice to have a little more firepower at my disposal. LOL (Spinal Tap fans....yes, I want one that "goes to eleven!" LOL)

By the way, I'm located in Western Massachusetts, Agawam to be exact. If you've ever been to Six Flags New England, that's our town. Some claim to fame, huh? LOL (OK, for those of you around the country, "Western Massachusetts" is NOT a separate state....though most of us who live here probably wish it was. We just like to distinguish ourselves from the "Bostonians". LOL)

I will definitely be in contact with you should we decide to proceed with the purchase of this organ. I apprecaite your generous offer.

Again, thanks to all for your input!!! Your informative comments are giving me the tools needed to deal with this decision. I can't thank you enough!!!

~Rick

P.S. Where do you guys KEEP all these organs you list. I have just a Hammond B-2 and my wife gives me grief. Well, that plus all my equipment for our Combo group. Still, you guys live in warehouses or what? Or are you single? Hmmmmmm.....maybe THAT'S the key! LOL

[Larrytow]

Rick, Your mind IS already made up to get the 6000 - I am certain of that even if you are not !

Regarding our organ collections : Some of us are just plain crazy, you must realize by now. LOL Too bad you live so far away - I would give you that Concorde. Like you, back in those years I dreamed of owning certain big organs, and now that I am retired ( sorta ), I just grab up ones I always wanted to play with. And ya, I am running out of room !

[jbird604]

Rick,

Interesting to hear about your church and the organ situation, and your "journey" in life. Many parallels here. I too serve a church that was once large but now runs 40 on the good Sundays, a hundred on Easter and Christmas Eve, 200 for a big funeral or wedding. The Allen MDS I got for the church several years ago is of course more organ than most churches running 40 people would have or want, but I'm delighted every week to have so much organ real estate to play around on (and it's not even three manuals). And I don't know how they manage to keep paying me either, but I really don't want to play for anyone else than these sweet folks.

So I applaud your interest in bringing in a truly fine organ, even if all normal measures say it is way over-sized. The 6000 is one of the finest Allens ever sold in many ways, a triumph of elegant design -- packing so many wonderful sounds into a console, with even the amps in the console in the standard configuration.

I sold and installed a massive 6000 drawknob model into a church seating about 1200 back in the 80's and it did not disappoint! Absolutely gorgeous, thrilling, room-shaking sound. We used about 25 speaker cabinets -- fully doubled set of HC-15's on the seven primary channels, plus seven PP speakers, plus a stack of four HC-20 subs in a parallel/series configuration. Massive bass on the 32' stop, could open and close doors in the rear of the church!

But I do remember installation day -- and we DID have six HEFTY guys lifting and pushing and grunting. The console had to go up about four steps to the chancel, so we just all gathered around it, grabbed it wherever we could, and lifted together. I still remember the feeling that we just might not be able to actually do it, then we did. It was certainly the heaviest console I ever encountered, except for a big ugly hulking Baldwin custom model that should have been removed with a chain saw.

Since you have the room, and since you have the talent and the desire to play one like this, you should just go for it! I'm not sure, but as you mention, this one may have been discussed here before, if it does indeed belong to someone who has been a member of this forum. It sounds very familiar, and I think I recall that he used some Behringer speakers to produce a manageable downsized sound system for his home setting. And he went through a lot of maintenance and voicing and upgrading, so it should be in very good condition.

You may well be in for some work -- getting the speakers renovated, if he never did that, another round of maintenance and voicing. But it will be well worth all the effort.

[myorgan]

Massive bass on the 32' stop, could open and close doors in the rear of the church!

John,

Methinks you're exercising your considerable gift of hyperbole again!;-) I have yet to open the auditorium doors with the Symphony organ.

Rick, to your question about where to store all of them.... Well, some of us are building a garage to house the organs. We also plan to use the garage for rehearsal space and lesson space once completed and climate controlled.

It does, indeed sound like you have decided to purchase the organ. Just be careful of pay-by-plate. They'll kill you in late fees and fines! You should be able to use a single complement of speakers with your church. The organ will require 7 channels/speakers for the manuals and pedals, but if you have a sub-woofer crossover, you'll need another speaker (B-20 or B-40) for that channel that produces the lowest 32' tones. You'll definitely appreciate the sound!

I should be driving through your area in about a month, so if you need help, I might be able to swing by. Let me know if you still need help then.

Michael

[toodles]

Not really hyperbole--the ADC 6000 with drawknobs is in the C console, not the D console. Thus it is a difficult console for homes, but rarely for a church, because of its size. It wasn't until the ADC-6300 that Allen figured out how to fit it into the D console with drawknobs and all.

[jbird604]

Michael probably thinks I'm kidding about "opening and closing doors" with the 32' stop. But seriously, until you've experienced what a series/parallel set of four HC-20's can do, you don't know what you're missing. That homely little array of four 15" drivers in sealed boxes can push around more air than a lot of the fancy voodoo woofers in use today. The doors in the rear of the sanctuary literally could be felt to move on their hinges on the lowest notes of the 32' stops!

[Rick Jay]

Greetings,

I'm going to keep this short because it was a long day and I need some sleep.

I went to see & play the organ today. I put a deposit on the organ. The organ is in beautiful condition. It DOES have 16 speakers: 12 Allen's (a mix of HC-12's & HC-15's) and 4 large Beringers....they are ALL connected in his home. The seller is/was an organ builder and his work is meticulous. He wired it into his home and ALL of the connections are clearly labelled, both on the amps/speakers/etc. and the cable ends. Truly amazing! The Allen speakers HAVE been rebuilt.

John, you ARE right!!! This sucker is huge, and I would agree with you that it is NOT a do-it-yourself move, certainly not out of his house. I am almost positive at this point that we will have the organ, the speakers, bench, pedalboard & cables moved professionally. In my opinion, the organ is just in too good condition to take any chances.

I'll give more details soon, but I just wanted to extend another hearty thanks to all of you for your input.

Thank you!

~Rick

[Larrytow]

Hi Rick,

Congratulations on the new ( to you, and your church ) organ ! We will be looking forward to the details, and photos. I figured you would get it - your mind was made up even before you visited it.

How far is the move ? I understand that the church will cover moving expenses, but one way to move a huge console like that ( since you said you had some big dollys ) is with a medium sized roll back tow truck. Put the organ on the dollys and winch the whole thing up the deck. Strapping it down of course, for the trip. That is how I moved mine when I acquired it. But then, I owned a towing biz at that time. But any decent tow truck company would undertake a move like that. With you supervising needless to say.

[myorgan]

The distance is approximately 180-200 miles. I started to say it would be approximately 3 hours, but then I remembered some of the cities he will have to go through--that alone adds up to an hour.

[Larrytow]

Ah, I see. For that distance just hire the movers ! Mine was just across the city, and it was summertime.

[jbird604]

Wonderful news all around. Getting an organ like that in ready-to-play condition is worth a lot more than getting one that needs extensive renovation. So nice that you came across one like this.

And yes, it's BIG. You are very wise to have it professionally moved (unless you are a tow-truck operator like Larry!). Removing it from a home could turn into a nightmare if you're not equipped to handle an item of this size and weight. Even a moving company will face some challenges in getting it out of there without damaging the house or furnishings. I trust that the house has unhindered access from the organ's current location to the outside door, and wide double doors to exit through. Even though I rent a small commercial building for my organ shop, we only have a 37" door opening (by removing the door itself and every bit of hardware, including the stops and trim), so when we took in an Allen in a "C" console we could not get it inside. Wound up storing it in my associate's garage until we could sell it!

You are going to have so much fun playing this thing! And the church will be enormously blessed by the music, even if they don't realize it. This organ could well draw some new people to the church. You know how rare it is these days to find a church where good music is played on a good organ.