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Allen model identification? Has overhanging keyboards.

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  • Allen model identification? Has overhanging keyboards.

    Hi there,

    Found this organ a good ways away but not impossible. Looks like a pre-MOS organ maybe, but it does have overhanging keyboards. Price not listed, I get the impression that the people are cleaning out an estate as they are selling other stuff like office equipment, some furniture, cabinets, etc. Here are the two pictures I have. Curious what your thoughts are on it, also interested in ago-specs etc.



    Click image for larger version

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    Click image for larger version

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    Thanks,



    -Max
    Last edited by Max the Icie Owner; 02-20-2019, 02:15 PM. Reason: Fixed images
    Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

  • #2
    That is definitely a digital Allen with a blind capture. My initial guess would be an MDS-1. If it is an MDS-1, it won't be AGO spec. It will have the 'princess' pedals.
    Sam
    Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
    Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

    Comment


    • myorgan
      myorgan commented
      Editing a comment
      Sam,

      I don't think it's an MDS. IIRC, this organ is probably of the (M)ADC-420 series or so. The black tab is to access a B-memory, and if I recall correctly, many of the sounds on the Swell are reproduced on the Great (i.e. Viole, Gedackt, etc.). The combination action is settable (the piston separated from the rest on the left), and I know it probably isn't a 420 because it has internal speakers. Depending on the model you get, the pedals could be the Princess pedalboard (or not) depending on which model it is.

      John or Toodles?

      Michael

      P.S. Check this link in the Gallery for the 430/520: https://organforum.com/gallery/thumb...bum=128&page=8
      P.P.S. Sam, how odd the time of your reply is similar to the model number of the organ in question!;-)

    • samibe
      samibe commented
      Editing a comment
      Most of the three-digit ADCs (220, 320, 420, 520, etc.) seem to have a terrace on each side of the swell that the transpose knob and the capture memory display are mounted on top of. The MDS-1 was the only model I could find that had the transpose knob and mem display mounted next to the stops. The MDCs and smaller three-digit ADCs sometimes have little speakers next to the stops. The small MOS organs usually have a different cabinet (no roll top). The regular ADC and larger MDS have a different cabinets and card readers, etc.

      Edit: an ADC-221, 222, or 222-A look the same.
      Last edited by samibe; 02-20-2019, 05:17 PM.

    • myorgan
      myorgan commented
      Editing a comment
      John,

      Is the photo above a B- or T-Style console? The ADC-420 brochure I linked to, shows the Contemporary console, and subsequently, the terraced sides.

      Michael

  • #3
    I'd have to look some old photos and compare the details to be sure, but definitely a digital Allen, and either ADC (or MADC) or MDS. So newer than MOS for sure.

    The (M)ADC-420 I used to have at home looked just like that, and had AGO pedals. But then the (M)ADC-222 also had the same general styling, but with princess pedals. If we could see the pedals we'd know for sure. And as samibe mentioned, could also be an MDS-1. You can find out by lifting the top lid and looking for the model plate.

    If the seller will measure the width across the top for you, that will tell you what kind of pedals it has. If it is only about 52" wide, it is definitely princess pedals. If it's about 56" wide, then it is definitely AGO pedals. This is the telling dimension because an AGO pedalboard MUST be 54" wide where it butts against the console, so a console any narrower than that will have to have the pedals reduced in width to some extent.
    John
    ----------
    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

    Comment


    • #4
      Ok, thanks! I've contacted the seller, he's going to measure it tomorrow (it's in another house) and email me then. His wife was an organ teacher and passed away three years ago. It hasn't been played for 3-4 years he said. I've been looking up those various models mentioned. I assume Allen did make modified versions from the straight base models sometimes? Haven't found one with exactly the same layout and number of stops per division yet.
      Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

      Comment


      • #5
        He's going to throw it out pretty soon as he can't seem to get rid of it as he's moving soon and can't take it with him. So it's free and I'm the only person interested. But I hate princess pedals as I have big feet. We'll see I guess. :-)

        I was going to correct the title to reflect the era but looks like I can't.
        Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

        Comment


        • #6
          Why not tell us where it is? Perhaps someone else may have an interest, depending on location. looks like fine home practice unit.
          Can't play an note but love all things "organ" Responsible for 2/10 Wurli pipe organ, Allen 3160(wife's), Allen LL324, Allen GW319EX, ADC4600, many others. E-organ shop to fund free organ lessons for kids.

          Comment


          • myorgan
            myorgan commented
            Editing a comment
            Really?!!! I'm sure if he doesn't pick it up, he'll let the Forum know where it is. I'm sure it'll be saved by someone nearby if Max doesn't get it. He may have to dodge the snowstorms, though.;-)

            Michael

            P.S. I would never disclose the location of an organ I was interested in BEFORE I saw it. Sometimes even after.

        • #7
          I think Sam is on the right track. It's either an MDS-1 or else an MADC-222. A further complication is that on the Allen tech site, the SAME photo is shown for both the ADC-222 and the MDS-1. They actually should differ in some slight details, but the factory didn't go to the trouble of shooting a new photo when the MDS-1 came out, and just used the ADC-222 shot, even on the brochure, if I'm not mistaken.

          The measurement of the width will tell the tale, as to whether it's got AGO pedals or not.

          Michael -- as to cabinet styles, by the end of the ADC era and the beginning of the MDS era, Allen had introduced a baffling set of "new" console styles, many of which look very similar, but differ in details. The ADC-222 and the MDS-1 are in a style known as the "K" console. The "K" always has princess pedals, and supersedes the "S". But there is a style "AK" used for the MDS-6, which is very similar, but is in fact 4" wider and has an AGO pedalboard. There's a chance that the organ in question above is in the "AK" console instead of the "K," it being very hard to tell the difference in a picture. There are also a "KT" and an "AKT" and an "AT" -- all of which share certain design features, but vary in details! So it got VERY confusing after that time. It was so much easier when we only had the basic styles -- B, C, D, S, T, and the "Contemporary" (spaceship).

          While the princess pedals are certainly less desirable to many of us accustomed to AGO, some folks seem to do just fine practicing on the princess. It might even be preferable to some, where space is at a premium. That 4" difference in width, as well as the even larger difference in depth, might make it much easier to have an organ at home for some.

          If I found myself with a princess model as my only practice organ, I would be very tempted to plunk down whatever Allen charges for one of the new 32-note concave/parallel pedalboards that is a drop-in replacement for the princess pedals. It is optional on all current models with princess pedals, so I assume it can be retrofitted to older consoles with princess pedals. This parallel board, while rather different in appearance from AGO, has in fact almost precisely the same spacing of the pedal sticks at the playing point, and it has regular-size sharps instead of the miniature ones of the princess pedals. Certainly an improvement, but you also have to have a different bench, since it's wider at the rear end than princess.

          I sure hope that somebody takes this organ before he trashes it. Even if it's just a 222, it is an Allen, with the excellent wooden keysticks they all had before the Fatar stuff came out. And would surely be an upgrade for owners of certain other models.
          John
          ----------
          *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment


          • #8
            I'll report back, don't worry. Waiting for the measurements. :-)
            Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

            Comment


            • #9
              Ask the seller to lift the led and look for the plaque with the model number on it.

              Comment


              • Max the Icie Owner
                Max the Icie Owner commented
                Editing a comment
                Hi, he just got back to me with measurements, so he didn't lift the lid. I could ask him, but I don't know if it would be a good idea as I'm not interested in it anymore, and don't want to give him the wrong idea.

            • #10
              Ok, the seller got back to me this morning.

              "The organ is 52x30, bench 45x12.5." So it is the smaller console style. I will not be picking it up as I only have space for one large organ and I'd like it to be AGO (I have big feet and don't care for Princess pedals). So, here's the Craigslist listing. Gentlemen is a really nice guy, but he's having to get rid of his wife's stuff as he's moving and she died three years ago.


              Organ is free, comes with a bunch of music books if you want them. Located in Warba, Minnesota (southeast of Grand Rapids). https://duluth.craigslist.org/zip/d/...824097879.html


              Hope somebody here can pick it up! He really wants to get rid of it quickly.



              Thanks for all your help!


              -Max
              Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

              Comment


              • myorgan
                myorgan commented
                Editing a comment
                I hope someone picks it up and finds a good home for it.

                Michael

            • #11
              Originally posted by Max the Icie Owner View Post
              Ok, the seller got back to me this morning.

              "The organ is 52x30, bench 45x12.5." So it is the smaller console style. I will not be picking it up as I only have space for one large organ and I'd like it to be AGO (I have big feet and don't care for Princess pedals). So, here's the Craigslist listing. Gentlemen is a really nice guy, but he's having to get rid of his wife's stuff as he's moving and she died three years ago.


              Organ is free, comes with a bunch of music books if you want them. Located in Warba, Minnesota (southeast of Grand Rapids). https://duluth.craigslist.org/zip/d/...824097879.html


              Hope somebody here can pick it up! He really wants to get rid of it quickly.



              Thanks for all your help!


              -Max
              Has the seller tried calling some local churches? He can get a tax receipt for the value of the organ as a donation.

              Comment


              • Max the Icie Owner
                Max the Icie Owner commented
                Editing a comment
                No, he has not. I just asked him. Read my next post for details.

            • #12
              Ok, so I just talked to the seller. He needs it out of the house in approximately one month from today as he's moving. He has contacted someone at some type of veterans association in Hibbing that sells stuff, and the lady will call him tomorrow about whether or not they will take it. He seems to not be interested in donating to a church (I don't think anyone wants it).

              The plan is that if no one picks it up in one month, I will take it. It would be miles better than my two Kimball spinets for practice, and I could make do until when/if something better came along, at which point I'd let everyone here know, list in in the classifieds, etc. So he has a backup then if no one gets it. That way it wouldn't get thrown out.

              Sounds like a plan I think. :-)
              Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

              Comment


              • #13
                Definitely a BIG upgrade over a Kimball spinet. The few times I've played princess pedals, I was mostly just annoyed by the downsized sharps, which are placed in such a way that I found myself accidentally hitting the expression pedal when aiming for the E-flat or F-sharp. But if I were playing an organ like that regularly, I'd surely be able to overcome that.

                As I said above, if I had no choice but to take in a princess as my home practice organ, I'd check with Allen about getting myself one of their new 32-note parallel-concave boards. I believe I could be totally satisfied with that board and have no trouble at all going back and forth playing it and the AGO pedals at church, since the keystick spacing is identical to AGO. Since you say you have large feet, you might actually need to do that before you'd be happy with it, but even as it is, it should be a LOT better than your Kimball spinet! As I recall, Kimball spinets have pedals that don't feel anything at all like real organ pedals. I'm surprised you can practice on them at all.
                Last edited by jbird604; 02-21-2019, 07:59 PM.
                John
                ----------
                *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                Comment


                • Max the Icie Owner
                  Max the Icie Owner commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well, that's the thing. I don't practice pedal technique on the Kimballs. They were donated to me quite a few years ago. I have practiced at various churches. Since we moved however it's been hard to find one (my current church doesn't have any organ at all, it's piano-based). I played on princess pedals during lessons with my old organ teacher. My reason for holding out for AGO pedals is that A. I'm more comfortable playing them and B. I only have space for one full-sized organ console. I'd like to get a full-sized organ to last a long time. I know the idea of buy once, buy nice doesn't always pan out. I get your point however. We'll see if someone else picks it up.

              • #14
                Discovery -- I finally had time to look up the details on the MDS-1 and ADC-221/222. The organ in this listing is definitely an ADC-221. Reason being that the stop tab count agrees precisely with the specs of the 221, but NOT with the specs of the MDS-1 (which has one more tab in the pedal section), nor with the 222, which has one more tab in the general division than this pic.

                So it's a decent home practice organ, if you can accept princess pedals or have them changed out for the P/C pedalboard.

                There's a little attachment beneath the right apron that could be a headphone jack, or it COULD be the MIDI selector that was used on these models when the MIDI adapter was installed either at the factory or as an add-on.
                John
                ----------
                *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                Comment


                • Max the Icie Owner
                  Max the Icie Owner commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Neat. Thank you. I noticed the stop count thing on them, but I don't always trust google image search results (you'd be shocked at what people label things sometimes).

              • #15
                Having owned a 221 from 1991 until 2017, it is definitely a 221 or 222. The 221 has preprogramed pistons.

                Comment


                • jbird604
                  jbird604 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The standard 221 had fixed piston combinations, but an upgrade was available to make them settable. The pistons still did not cause the tabs to move, but at least you could set your own combinations. The method for setting is a bit convoluted, requires you to press cancel before you press Set each time, but once they are set, they work just like any other blind combination action.

                  Like other Allen capture systems, the optional board on the 221 had batteries on it, and unless the owner or tech was sharp enough to move those batteries off the board long ago, the batteries will have leaked and possibly ruined the memory board.

                • cham-ed
                  cham-ed commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Just for historical reference. My 221 was delivered in Spring of 1991. It had no way to alter the factory piston settings. The dealer did not mention the availability of an upgrade when I purchased it. So It is reasonable to assume that upgrade came after that time. The A memory selection was a logical increasing of registration. The B was a strange set of choices not related one to the next

                • myorgan
                  myorgan commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Just for historical reference. My 221 was delivered in Spring of 1991. It had no way to alter the factory piston settings.
                  [snip]
                  The B was a strange set of choices not related one to the next
                  The upgrade probably was available, but the dealer was more interested in selling the organ on his floor than the one he would have to order.

                  The B settings were intended for solo/accompaniment music. One may have been a Trumpet solo, whereas another would be String Celeste, and yet another would be a Cornet registered in the Swell with some sort of accompaniment on the Great. As you recounted, the A memory did have a logical buildup.

                  Michael
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