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  • Allen MOS, but which one ?

    This appears to be a MOS two computer organ in a D console. But it is not a 603, I'm pretty sure. It only has two Exp pedals, not three. But it does look to have two computers judging from the Alterables having R and L on the tabs. And 4 Alterables per manual.

    Is it maybe a 632D ? Or something else ?
    Attached Files
    Regards, Larry

    At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

  • #2
    Larrytow, it's a model 601 from 1973 (I used to sell them.)
    Back in '73 they went for around $15K installed.
    Yes, two computers.
    R, Bill

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm with Bill, though I honestly don't know "all" the MOS models in detail. I know it's not a 632 because that is a three-manual built with two MOS computers in a unique configuration -- one for the great/choir and one for the swell/pedal.

      BTW, the 600, 601, and 603 only have one expression pedal and one crescendo pedal. There was no divided expression on that model group, as both computers and all four channels serve all divisions equally, so no way to separately express the audio.
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • beel m
        beel m commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi John, the easy way to tell just from a quick look:
        600-18 general pistons (1972)
        601- 6 each gen & SGP div pistons (1973)
        602- changed alterable voice tabs from "IL" "IIL" "IR" "IIR" (on each manual) to "1" "2" "3" "4" "5" "6" "7" "8" (1974)
        603- sub-doublers on swell (?? after my time- perhaps 1975??)
        R, Bill

    • #4
      Bill and John, Thank you for the ID. The capture memory is not working currently ( as usual ), and I figure it has the power supply with the 4 D cell rechargeable NiCads in it. Does that seem likely to you ?

      Also, what speaker cabinets should I expect to see with it, if they have not been upgraded since 1973 ? Probably not HCs right ?
      Regards, Larry

      At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

      Comment


      • myorgan
        myorgan commented
        Editing a comment
        What do y'all think? HC-12 or Monitor II speakers?

        Michael

    • #5
      That early in the MOS era, the standard speakers might have even been gyros. I know the original MOS model 600 was shipped with gyros. But this being a 601 (the first "revision" of the 600 series) it may have been shipped with "16-1" boxes for Main channels and a "32A/B" set for each flute/pedal channel. So six rather large boxes with open backs. Designed to be very efficient, thus "loud." The drivers were all fairly old-fashioned -- 15" woofers with stiff paper cones, 12" "midrange" speakers, and paper cone tweeters. Quite different from the HC cabinets, but pretty good.

      Keep in mind though that MOS models were generally produced with few changes for years at a time. Many are nearly unchanged from 1971 to 1981. So even if this one is a 601, introduced in 1973, it might have been built much later than that.

      At some point in early MOS, maybe around 1975, they started offering the first "HC" model, which was the HC-10, the precursor to the venerable HC-12. The HC-10 had the foam-surround 15" woofer in a sealed box, but used an older type of sealed-back midrange, not as advanced and smooth-sounding as the Peerless "can" midranges we all know and love. The tweeters on HC-10's were phenolic-surround paper cones with a dome in the middle, sort of a transitional design between plain old paper cone tweeters and modern dome tweeters.

      My take is that the HC-10 was introduced in an effort to position Allen's speakers as true "audiophile" cabinets rather than old-fashioned "movie house" speakers, as competitors used, and as Allen had used until then. But the HC-10 and HC-12 were both rather inefficient compared to the old open-back boxes, and necessitated the switch to more powerful amps.
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • myorgan
        myorgan commented
        Editing a comment
        So John, what would the Monitor II's be used for, and would they ever be used for an entire organ?

        Michael

    • #6
      Thanks again for all the info guys. I will verify all the details and so on after I visit it on Thursday. I just wanted to know beforehand what model it exactly was. This is another situation where I am told "the speakers are way high up, in an inaccessible location" . And "I think the speakers are built-into the building". We shall see I guess. Neither one of those scenarios is likely completely true.
      Regards, Larry

      At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

      Comment


      • myorgan
        myorgan commented
        Editing a comment
        Just had an idea after I posted regarding the Monitor II's. Larry, do you think it would work better if the speakers were placed slightly off-axis to bounce off the sloping ceiling rather than directly through (above/below) the fan blades? I know John is always talking about bouncing sound off a hard surface before going to the listener's ears. I wonder if that would work here?

        Michael

    • #7
      Michael, Monitor II's were designed for wall mounting, primarily as antiphonals, but sometimes up front. They were very easy to wall mount, as the box and the baffle were completely separate parts. You could screw the fairly light weight box to the wall first, then raise the baffles into place, secure them with a few screws, and wire them right on the front panel before putting on the grille frame. Much easier than wall-mounting any other type of speaker except the little PP's, which were similarly designed.

      They are far from ideal as the only speakers in an organ, as they are too shallow and lack the internal cubic volume needed to produce good solid bass. Downright thin-sounding in fact, with a noticeably restricted bass. They are quite loud, using the highly-efficient stiff paper cone 15" woofer and 12" midrange that Allen used in analogs so successfully, along with a tweeter, cone at first, dome in later production. Thus quite useful as antiphonals. Even when mounted some distance from the console they could usually be heard well.

      We continued to offer the Monitor II well into the ADC era. I installed a few ADC's with full antiphonals using Monitor II's and (unwisely) even installed one small organ with a pair of Monitor II's and a pair of PP's as the only speakers. It didn't sound very good, but it was an economy setup.

      Allen discontinued the Monitor II at some point in the 80's, telling us we had to use regular HC cabinets and mount them on the wall using cleat kits they sold. Much harder to do, but they did sound better.
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • myorgan
        myorgan commented
        Editing a comment
        Excellent information, John! I don't think I ever told you, but i have 6 or 8 of the Monitor II's (birch), and have been looking for a place to use them. Maybe I can mount them permanently in the garage.

        However, my Monitor II's mount the baffle from the rear of the speaker (IIRC) because they have individual grilles that go on front. I haven't seen them since I moved them into storage to build the garage.

        So, would these Monitor II's or some of the HC speakers work well for Larry if he could find them? Wisconsin seems to be a prime location for Allens being sold over the lasat few years.

        Michael

    • #8
      https://madison.craigslist.org/msg/d...828628798.html

      Nice looking Allen. Too far away for me. Does not include speakers. Church is adding a pipe organ so they are giving this away to anyone who can transport it. Looks like a nice model, I don't know any specifics other than it's two-manual, in a large console, with what looks like lots of stops.



      -Max
      Baldwin: D421A; Allen: ADC-220 - 1986; Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers; Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III; Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lots of synths, accordions, stringed instruments, percussion, etc.

      Comment


      • #9
        Max,

        This organ is the subject of another thread here. I believe they narrowed it down to being a MOS-1 601 model. Thanks for sharing it.

        Michael
        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

        Comment


        • myorgan
          myorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          No problem, Max. Thank you for letting us know about the organ! No need to delete anything.

          Michael

        • Larrytow
          Larrytow commented
          Editing a comment
          Max, I'm happy it is too far away for you. It is mine, but not in my possession yet. I cant get it till after Ash Wed. I'm going Thursday. If for some reason I don't want to take it, I will let you know.

        • Max the Icie Owner
          Max the Icie Owner commented
          Editing a comment
          Have fun in that case. :-)

      • #10
        Here is an quick update on this instrument. It is now mine, although I do not have all of it home yet. My organ console moving trailer is buried under a Very Large ice and snow pile / drift. And we are getting three more inches of wet heavy slop tonight - not quite spring here yet ! So far I have the pedalboard, bench, and amp rack / amps here.

        We went to the church Thursday and disconnected it, put it on the ROKs, and moved it out of the sanctuary. That had to be done this week, as next week Schantz is starting the installation of their brand new 2/14 organ, and that console needs to go where this one was. The 601 is now sitting out in the narthex ( locked roll top, etc ) waiting for me to get the trailer out of the snow. Since the folks at the church are fellow Wisconsinites, they understand the snow issue.

        This organ has issues, but it plays. But I did not have time to explore what they all are exactly. The HC speakers are mounted up in the ceiling ( yes, really ! ). This is a modern ( well late 50s, early 60s anyhow ) open style church in a sort of fan shaped design with a sloping flat roof. One that leaks, and the speakers are badly water damaged. So, those are going to just stay there. I am not about to rent a manlift to get down speakers that may well be junk.

        More details, and of course photos, will be along in a few days.
        Regards, Larry

        At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

        Comment


        • #11
          Here are some more details about this organ ( one that I certainly don't "need", but it is an Allen, and close (ish), and the right price. - OAS strikes again ! ) . It is in sorta rough shape in some ways, but not terrible considering the age of it. Allens are fixable, and I rather like the MOS sound once they get a reverb installed. Or placed in a large room like this one. I figure it will make someone a nice practice organ, or perhaps be located in a church near me so I have a decent one to play, compared to some of the junk I am called upon to deal with.

          While we were there the organist pointed out the 21 note chimes up on the wall and said that if I wanted them, I could have them. So even while I was wondering why they no longer wanted them, I said "of course I will take them !". They are getting a brand new Schantz pipe organ after all, and chimes don't really care what sort of organ they are played with, so that was kinda weird. So no matter what eventually happens with the organ, it was worth the effort to get it just to acquire the chimes. My 6000-D has chime contacts in it already along with the transformer, so one of my living room walls will be getting chimes ( one of these days ).

          The photos will tell better than I can really describe about how the speakers are mounted up on the ceiling. They seem to be hung in enclosures obviously made for them. It looks to me like there must be some sort of hook on the bottom back of each one, and then they were lifted up into the enclosure and tilted into position. So they are laying at an angle supported by the front face and whatever sort of hook arrangement is on the back. Does that seem likely ? Has anyone ever seen / done a similar installation ? 4 of the 6 look to be HC cabinets. Two of them look a bit smaller. I can see the water stains on one of them, and they sounded ratty . So I am of the mind to leave them there. I would need to rent a lift to get them down, and I'm thinking the cost involved is not worth it for potentially junk speaker cabinets. If they ever do a remodel / roof repair, and have a lift in there for that, they can take them down, or call me.

          The amp rack was screwed directly to the right end of the organ. They even took off ( and lost ! ) the bottom molding / trim piece to make it sit kinda flush with the end. Not too elegant I have to say. And you needed to move the entire console / amp rack combination away from the wall to open the door on it. Not a big deal when removing the whole works anyhow, but if it needed service that is so much more work than some other location for it. The amp rack does not look to be an Allen one either. It is considerably larger than needed for 4 amps too. A nice cabinet for some other use though - never enough storage space in the shop.

          The organ is now out of their way in the narthex, waiting for me to come get it. We are going to have warm weather this week ( above freezing anyhow ) so I should be able to dig out my console moving trailer.
          Attached Files
          Regards, Larry

          At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

          Comment


          • myorgan
            myorgan commented
            Editing a comment
            The amp rack does not look to be an Allen one either. It is considerably larger than needed for 4 amps too. A nice cabinet for some other use though - never enough storage space in the shop.
            Nope, that's not an Allen amp rack. An Allen rack would have been open on at least one side, and would be more compact than yours. Those amps are not the S-100s I'm used to seeing, but they are definitely Allen amps (probably T-50 or something like that).

            Speakers, not sure what's holding them up there, but I wouldn't sit under them. Looks dangerous to me! The smaller speakers MAY be either HC-13 speakers (smaller than HC-12 speakers) or HC-8 speakers. Other guys here can probably tell you more.

            Congratulations on your acquisition!

            Michael

          • Larrytow
            Larrytow commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for the congrats Michael. That set of chimes really made my day ! And ya, that speaker install is very strange, and quite possibly dangerous. They have been there a long time though, so I suppose it is not as hinky as it looks. There are many better options for placing speakers in that room - I can't figure exactly why they chose one that is so odd, complicated, and way more work to install. You really do not want the organ sound coming right at the congregation like that.

        • #12
          And here are some more photos :
          Attached Files
          Regards, Larry

          At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

          Comment


          • #13
            Here is a follow up on this organ : We went to go pick it up last Thursday, and it was an absolutely beautiful spring day to move an organ 100 miles !

            As all my other trailers are full at the moment, I needed to use my flat bed trailer to haul it. It is a tilt trailer, so winching the organ up on the ROK dollies went really easy. Someday I need to get an enclosed trailer ( one that I will NOT use as storage ! ) to do this sort of moving job, but this move went well on the open trailer. Just had to make sure the weather was going to be dry that day.

            It is now sitting in my garage on the trailer waiting for me to make room in the shop - going to be some cheap organs for sale very shortly here ! Or, I'm going to be taking a few apart for parts and dumping the remainders.

            We picked up the chimes as well. They are Maas Cathedral Chimes, and are in pretty nice condition. When I was there two weeks ago, there were guys from a local construction company finishing up building the supporting structure for the new pipe organ. As they had scaffolding already there and set-up, I made a deal with them to take down my chimes from up high on the wall. I needed to get back that day for a choir practice that evening, so I figured with decent instructions they could get the chimes down. And they did get them down with no real damage, but they cut all the hanger cords instead of uncliping the wire clips ! And I even Told them they were likely on hanger clips. I guess I should have stayed and supervised, but so it goes. I suppose tying new cords is not that big of a deal, but it is annoying.

            Here are some moving photos for your entertainment.
            You may only view thumbnails in this gallery. This gallery has 5 photos.
            Regards, Larry

            At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              Congratulations, Larry! Even parquet flooring on the trailer? I hope you will enjoy the organ

              Michael

            • Larrytow
              Larrytow commented
              Editing a comment
              Parquet flooring ? LOL, A very generous way to describe it !

          • #14
            Here are some photos of the brand new Schantz 2/14 pipe organ that replaced this Allen. It is a nice organ for sure, but I gotta be honest here - I would actually prefer an nice new big Allen if it were up to me. So many more options on one, compared to the limits of a smallish ( although brand new ) pipe organ. This one is only prepared for a 16' reed - it will not be installed till more money comes in.

            This one has 128 levels of memory with a Peterson control system. This church actually has 6 ( yes, thats right ! ) organists, so lots of memory levels are nice for them.

            The center facade pipe is missing as it was damaged in shipping.
            You may only view thumbnails in this gallery. This gallery has 5 photos.
            Regards, Larry

            At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), US-1, EL-25 ( Chopped ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755. 1919 Wangerin 2/7 pipe organ.

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              The center facade pipe is missing as it was damaged in shipping.
              All I want for Christmas is my one front pipe! Nice instrument, though. The console reminds me of many Holtkamp consoles I've seen. I can't say as I care for them, but I suppose as long as they're functional.

              Thanks for sharing about this organ.

              Michael

            • Larrytow
              Larrytow commented
              Editing a comment
              Most of us are interested in all sorts of organs, so I figured it was appropriate. I know Holtkamp pretty much invented that style, but the first builder I thought of was Schlicker. My high school has one in that style.

            • tbeck
              tbeck commented
              Editing a comment
              Those stop tabs look exactly like those of an ancient Baldwin Orgasonic I played a couple of times back in the early 60s. I'm sure that Schantz will sound better, though!
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