A good time for churches to be looking for used Allen organs

[radagast]

I wish I had the money and the space for some used Allen organs I see out there. The same model Tom Hazleton played on the Echoes of the Basillica CD is available in New York. A large custom ADC model is available in Michigan. And neither one is being sold by FF, unless he's using a different name.

[beel m]

Wonder what the story is with those organs being available? A while back the big Allen in Bryn Athyn (PA) Cathedral was replaced by a pipe organ; hope it's something like that and not a 'change of format' which we've discussed at length :-/

[jbird604]

Yep. If I were 20 years younger I'd be ready to get a truck and drive around the country picking up a few. In years past, we have made good money picking up Allens and re-selling them refurbished with warranty and installation. But sales are certainly not what they were just a few years ago, even for used organs. The sad thing right now is that there are so many of these being sold because the church "changed their style" or else could no longer find anyone to play the organ.

But it's bonanza time for churches like mine and others this size where the organ is still used fully but the purchase of a new organ would be out of the question, financially. If we hadn't gotten our used MDS Allen a few years back, we would still be limping along with the previous organ, which was much smaller and out of order more often than in. If we didn't have this one already, I'd sure be wanting to bring in one of these treasures.

I have to wonder if FF is feeling the pinch too. He must have a warehouse full of old organs, and even his barebones sales are surely down. He couldn't possibly be selling them for the kinds of prices he lists on ebay, without warranty of any kind or any installation or voicing. We don't get that kind of money even WITH installation, voicing, and warranty.

[Rick Jay]

radagast,

I guess my recent experiences are living proof of your statement. I had been looking for a good replacement organ for our church's TC-1 for quite some time with limited success. Potential organs would show up on occasion, but most were located quite some distance from our location and I really don't feel comfortable purchasing such a large item sight unseen. Well, fortunately for us, an Allen ADC-6000-DKC became available within a 3 hour drive of us. It was in excellent condition and the seller was very much interested in seeing it find a good home and we were able to arrive at a price which was reasonable to both parties. I've posted the entire process and updates on it's installation on these forums https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...n-adc-6000-dkc and https://organforum.com/forums/forum/electronic-organs-midi/classic-church-electronic-organs/652536-update-on-installation-of-allen-adc-6000-dkc .

I would tend to agree that the issue is that many churches are "changing their style", though I am one who thinks that the classic sound of an organ in church helps MAKE the service. I know, I am a bit biased. But I've heard many people who have visited our church remark about how much they enjoy hearing the organ in a service. When I inquire about the music in their own worship service, in most cases, the answer is that their church has changed to piano and/or "Praise Band" for their worship services. They couldn't find an organist. One of the churches has a small pipe organ, which last time I played it (about 10 years ago) was still in nice shape. Now it sits mostly idle.

But I really think the larger problem is the lack of people who learn how to play an organ. There are LOTS of keyboard players, NOT many organists. "What? I have to both hands AND both feet?!?!?!" LOL And I think that is a shame, and I have to say, I even feel guilty. We have three children who are all quite talented musically, but none of them play the organ (Clarinet/Sax, Flute/Vocals, Trumpet/Trombone). I've been saying for 10 years now I have to start teaching them on the organ....but life keeps getting in the way. Maybe this summer. It should be pretty easy as they are already pretty accomplished about theory, especially the two boys. Actually, since our oldest son has been helping me extensively with the install of our ADC-6000, I think his interest in electronic instruments has been piqued.

But HECK, I've been playing organs since I was 9, and our TC-1 for the past 27 years. BUT, the ADC-6000 is a new beast entirely. As I'm going through its installation and working the gremlins out of it, I'm beginning to get familiar with it. But going from a TC-1 with a "princess pedalboard" to the three manual ADC-6000 draw knob console is quite the learning experience. And BOY, am I learning. LOL

As to comments about the FF, I would imagine that things must be slow for him too. The demand just isn't there. Sadly, I don't see this trend changing much in the coming years. I think it's going to be sad that a lot of good organs will probably meet an early demise because they're not wanted.

The first couple of times I was reading the posts on this board, I used to chuckle to myself as I read all of the different organs folks had in their collections. I have about 8 different synthesizers & midi sound modules, dating back to the original Yamaha DX-7, but I only have ONE organ in the house, a Hammond B-2 & Leslie...which is currently not set up to play, but is mostly functional last time I did. I would LOVE to be able to start an organ collection of my own should any large organs become available nearby, but that's not likely to happen. We just don't have the space.

~Rick

[radagast]

In regards to the move to praise bands, I think at some point people miss an organ in church. As a matter of fact I know it's true. Just a few weeks ago we were practicing the music for Sunday and one of the singers said that the song we were doing would sound good with with an organ. I know he meant “classical” and not “gospel” organ. I agreed. I play the piano every Sunday. But if we could another pianist who is good enough, I would be glad to bring some classical organ sound into the mix. Nothing like a real organ, I know.

[Nutball]

Look at the band Boston. I'm not too much of a fan of the organ heard in rock music, but when they use a classical sound, it adds power and becomes epic.

[jbird604]

Not to lead this thread too far off the original topic (and maybe this isn't)... I fear that many churches that have decided to ditch the organ really have no idea what they are missing. In some cases, they never had much of an organ anyway -- I'm thinking of small churches in rural areas or even in some towns that never had anything but a "toy" organ or a spinet designed for home use, or an old Baldwin or something with no stops above 4' pitch. Where most of the people have never been inside a church with a pipe organ or even a properly voiced and played electronic that fills the room with room-shaking power and brilliant tone colors.

Or churches that never had anyone who knew how to do anything with the organ other than create a muddy roar or sad little background noise -- I'm thinking of the timid players who think of themselves as just slightly better than nothing (I know of several organ players in little churches who actually refer to themselves that way), who never had a lesson, never heard a real pipe organ or any kind of decent organ being played in a service where the organ led with full-throttle ebullience and carried the singing to incredible heights. Consequently, they play with a mournful and depressing monotonous drudgery that hardly anybody even notices, much less enjoys.

Or perhaps modern churches that were actually founded on "contemporary" worship with a band from the get-go, and many of their members are suburban 30-, 40-, and 50-somethings who disliked church when younger, quit going when they became adults, and have no memory of having heard a decent organ played, if there was one in the church of their childhood.

I know people in all these categories who couldn't care less if they ever hear an organ again in church because they associate with with a straw man -- they either grew up thinking or have been led to believe that the organ is a "dead" instrument, a relic, one of the millstones about the neck of the "dying" mainstream church.

Of course these scenarios don't account for churches discarding an Allen ADC-6000, as Rick Jay found. But there is SOME kind of story behind that -- perhaps a pastor or "music pastor" came on board who had fallen for the line that the organ is deadly to the church, as some people are apparently being TAUGHT in some SEMINARIES today!

I just have to wonder though, when someone who belongs to one of the above categories actually EXPERIENCES a worship service in which the organ is played properly, when it leads joyful congregational singing and provides wondrously colorful and moving music for the pivotal portions of the service -- what do they think then? How do they react? Do they ever change their minds and decide they may have been wrong, or may have been misled by their seminary, by a "music conference" they attended or a "church growth expert" they were so enthralled with?

We can only hope...

[AllenAnalog]

Since John has led us a bit astray from the OP, how about some good news on this front to balance that depressing information?

We have a large Roman Catholic seminary here in Denver. The chapel had a pipe organ from the beginning but it eventually fell into disrepair and was replaced by a 3-manual Allen Renaissance organ. Unfortunately a squirrel got into the chapel and made a home inside the Allen, eventually chewing up wires and doing what squirrels do in a nesting area.

So then the Allen became unreliable and despite multiple attempts to fix it, the organist (who is a professor of music at the seminary) gave up on keeping it working. A donor was found to pay for a new pipe organ. So last February they installed a new 3-manual instrument that used some of the pipework of the original one. The organ was tonally designed to support the singing of male voices. They are hoping to add an antiphonal division when additional funds are secured.

In this case we have young seminarians going through their daily mass with a pipe organ leading the singing and presumably they are also exposed to some kind of musical training since the chapel organist teaches at the seminary.

You can read about the project on the builder's web site and read cover stories about it published in The American Organist and The Diapason.

http://www.keggorgan.com/ProjectDetail.cfm?yJNum=210

[michaelhoddy]

That's a beautiful-looking instrument, and Kegg is truly one of the bright spots when it comes to building creative, artistic smaller pipe organs that belie their actual size. Wonderful that part of the Kilgen got incorporated in the new instrument. One of the depressing questions I always have when a failing pipe organ is turned off for the last time is if those pipes will ever speak again. Glad to hear a happy outcome here.

[jbird604]

Yes, that is a positive note! Glad to hear that not all seminaries are intentionally turning young students away from the organ. Of course, my experience with fresh-from-seminary music ministers is mostly with the few evangelical denominations that dominate my part of the country. They are coming from schools where even the faculty are often connected to the modern P&W publishing industry, so they're naturally most knowledgeable and excited about that type of church music, and may unintentionally pass that bias along to students.

And the seminaries are of course the servants of the local churches, where lots of these evangelical congregations are going crazy over contemporary music because they see all these non-denominational Big Box churches popping up around them, growing like crazy while featuring a fancy rock concert format every Sunday. I don't know where this will all end, but I can't believe that this is truly the best path for such a large swath of Christianity to be on right now!

[JohnBoyDeere]

"Churches" today are not only ditching their classical organs they are also ditching their acoustic pianos, pews, pulpits, Lord's Supper tables, Sunday Schools, Missions groups and even their steeples and bells. The "Sanctuary" is now being called the "worship center". There are a few "churches" here in Pinellas County Florida that even serve coffee and donuts on a cart in the "worship center" during the "preaching" service. I use to think it was just the organ that was being singled out but not true. The "traditional church" has been singled out. Most contemporary services of today don't even mention Jesus in the words of their songs and as I have been told by several "We don't want to offend anyone" Served at a church 10 years ago that ordained a new Deacon who admitted to smoking dope with his boys, frequented girly bars and would serve the Lords Supper in beach shorts a tank top and flip-flops, no kidding, ya can't make this stuff up and all the preacher would say is "clothing doesn't make the man", sad days for sure...

[jbird604]

Yes indeed, sad, sad. Churches that do this probably think they making the Gospel "accessible" and "seeker-friendly" and reaching out to the "lost." But they are also shamelessly cheapening the entire concept of worship, making it seem that it is quite ok to offer to God that which is not only NOT our best, but is in fact tacky and tasteless. I think this trend is doomed at some point, but they will do a LOT of damage before they burn out!

[beel m]

I would tend to agree that the issue is that many churches are "changing their style", though I am one who thinks that the classic sound of an organ in church helps MAKE the service. I know, I am a bit biased. But I've heard many people who have visited our church remark about how much they enjoy hearing the organ in a service. When I inquire about the music in their own worship service, in most cases, the answer is that their church has changed to piano and/or "Praise Band" for their worship services.

I ran into something like that last Sunday. We had renewal of vows for a couple in our church, and they invited their friends... a LOT of them. One guy in particular told me during the reception that he loved singing with the organ; his church has a "praze band" and he never feels interested in, as he said, "competing with the amplified singers."
You never know!
-Bill

[John Vanderlee]

I removed an Aeolean Pipe organ from a beautiful church that was bought for “contemporary”. worship. Allthe wood was painted over in white, pews etc. removed. All windows (stained glass) covered with panels that ahd colored LED lighting, 3 giant video scrrens were added, theater lighting and the altar became a stage for the band with a massive sound sytem. The “reverend” asked me to attend the opening service and proudly told me they routinely issue earplugs to people. I declined...

[Eric Mack]

I heard a pastor, for whom I have deep respect, give a 60-minute interview on music and the church. Callers were encouraged to send in questions. The inevitable question of which style of music is better came up and he responded that music that was beautiful and drew people to worship was best. In other words, he felt there need not be the decisiveness between one style of music and another as much as a division between good, beautiful music, that touched the sole, and base music that was only marginally different from what could be heard on any radio station. Thus, he called us to a higher standard and expectation instead of trying to make our churches look increasingly like the world.

He explain the purpose of music and its [biblical] role in worship and he explained that the Sunday morning worship was not intended to be seeker friendly; it was, in his view, intended to be a time of worship, reading and study of God's Word, and shared communion. He hope, as a pastor was that anyone who happened to visit on a Sunday who was not a believer would at least observe that something different was happening in the service. He explained that the activities the rest of the week were focused on outreach but Sunday was focused on the Lord.

This was an hour long interview. He took a lot of tough and intentionally decisive questions and called people to consider the purpose of music in the service of worship context.

I appreciated him sharing in that way.

[radagast]

Yep. If I were 20 years younger I'd be ready to get a truck and drive around the country picking up a few. In years past, we have made good money picking up Allens and re-selling them refurbished with warranty and installation. But sales are certainly not what they were just a few years ago, even for used organs. The sad thing right now is that there are so many of these being sold because the church "changed their style" or else could no longer find anyone to play the organ.

But it's bonanza time for churches like mine and others this size where the organ is still used fully but the purchase of a new organ would be out of the question, financially. If we hadn't gotten our used MDS Allen a few years back, we would still be limping along with the previous organ, which was much smaller and out of order more often than in. If we didn't have this one already, I'd sure be wanting to bring in one of these treasures.

I have to wonder if FF is feeling the pinch too. He must have a warehouse full of old organs, and even his barebones sales are surely down. He couldn't possibly be selling them for the kinds of prices he lists on ebay, without warranty of any kind or any installation or voicing. We don't get that kind of money even WITH installation, voicing, and warranty.

Jbird, you have an R-230 right? There's one on EBay for $2000.00. A steal, I think.

Update: Scratch that. The auction is over.

[jbird604]

That was a good price, considering how new and full-featured the R-230 is. We'd get a LOT more than that for one out of our shop, but of course our price would include full refurbishment and maintenance, delivery, installation, voicing, and a warranty. But if I were younger and still selling organs like we were 10 years ago, I'd have gladly paid $2K for that one!

[Dewey643]

You know,...I'm sure there are some good used Rodgers organs out there somewhere that would also be good candidates as well. I know this thread is mainly referring to Allens(of which I USED to be an Allen guy until I was given the Rodgers organ I have now,and the analog Essex 640 sound won me over to the Rodgers camp),but let's not forget Rodgers,either!

[radagast]

You know,...I'm sure there are some good used Rodgers organs out there somewhere that would also be good candidates as well. I know this thread is mainly referring to Allens(of which I USED to be an Allen guy until I was given the Rodgers organ I have now,and the analog Essex 640 sound won me over to the Rodgers camp),but let's not forget Rodgers,either!

No problem there. When I started this thread, there were a lot of used Allens on EBay. There are again now. There's a self contained MOS organ with a card reader for less than $400 in Arizona. Another one that looks a lot like the first one, in Missouri for $820. But that one has some keys that need fixing. Another MOS organ in Maryland for $650.

There's several Rodgers organs on EBay also, but none I saw that inexpensive.