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Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!

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  • Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



    Ok,so I just wanted to get your attention. I got my CDs of the Allen Protege and Quantum samples. Not too bad. I think they should post them on the internet as they are fairly good. The thing is, the all sound like they were voiced by a 'mid-american' organ builder who has never heard what a real organ is supposed to sound like. All of the stops are realistic and all, but there was just no life in the samples. It reminds me of the kind of pipe organs found in "First Vanillia Church of Nowhere'sville." Do you know what I mean? Basically, they all sound like Moellers or Reuters or such.. do you know what I mean? </p>

    </p>

    buzzzzy</p>

    </p>

  • #2
    Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!

    [quote user="buzzyreed"] Ok,so I just wanted to get your attention. I got my CDs of the Allen Protege and Quantum samples. Not too bad. I think they should post them on the internet as they are fairly good. The thing is, the all sound like they were voiced by a 'mid-american' organ builder who has never heard what a real organ is supposed to sound like. All of the stops are realistic and all, but there was just no life in the samples. It reminds me of the kind of pipe organs found in "First Vanillia Church of Nowhere'sville." Do you know what I mean? Basically, they all sound like Moellers or Reuters or such.. do you know what I mean?


    buzzzzy[/quote]</P>


    So, I'm not the only one that noticed! I never thought I'd be writing what follows, but here goes....</P>


    I attended an Allen Organ dedication at a local church a few months ago. The Allen replaced an aging Estey pipe organ. I wasn't sure if they had purposefully attempted to voice the Allen like the Estey (to stay as close to the old organ as possible), or if the fellow who played the dedication just didn't know how to register or play. I left HUGELY disappointed.</P>


    A couple of the pedal notes were felt in the pews, but the sounds of each stop division were quite bland. Reeds lost their fire (unusual for an Allen), Strings were mush, Flutes were OK (kinda hard to mess those up too much), and Diapasons were like loud Strings. Of course, the <U>HEAVY VIBRATO</U> made it hard to decipher differences in sounds.</P>


    I'm sure the church people loved it and probably didn't know any better, but I really felt bad that they had made such a great financial commitment for such a disappointing instrument. My old MOS Allen sounded better than that with half the computers not working!</P>


    What I just wrote pains me greatly, as I have admired their work for decades, anddreamed of owningone of their instruments since I was in high school. However, if what I've heard recently is any indication, maybe it is time to switch camps to another organ builder whotakes more pride in their product.</P>


    Hmmm.</P>


    Michael</P>
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



      Brings to mind, many decades ago, the most agonizing organ concert I ever had the misfortune to endure.</P>


      A renown theatre organist in our area was invited to play one evening at a Hammond Organ Club meeting. Having heard him play on a real organ, I was most favourably impresssed with his capabilities. Buton the fatefulevening when he was supposed to demonstrate his prowess on aHammond Organ; he couldn'thave more obviously sabotaged theentire effort, in expressing his hatred and distain for Hammond Organs. For two agonizing hours, he never once changed registration,nor turned off the tremolo!!</P>
      2008: Phoenix III/44

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



        I got my CDs of the Allen Protege and Quantum samples.</P>


        Are those the demo CDs you're talking ie. people playing pieces or are theythe discs that containing individual stop samples?</P>


        If its the latter, I wouldn't mind having my own copy. How much do they cost from Allen?</P>


        A couple of the pedal notes were felt in the pews, but the sounds of each stop division were quite bland. Reeds lost their fire (unusual for an Allen), Strings were mush, Flutes were OK (kinda hard to mess those up too much), and Diapasons were like loud Strings. Of course, the <U>HEAVY VIBRATO</U> made it hard to decipher differences in sounds.</P>


        I wonder could the problem be down to the set up? Some of our techs here have often mentioned thata poor setup can really kill a decent instrument, and likewise a good setup can do wonders for an instrument that previously sounded mediocre.</P>
        1971 Allen Organ TC-3S (#42904) w/sequential capture system.
        Speakers: x1 Model 100 Gyro, x1 Model 105 & x3 Model 108.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



          Buzzzzy,</p>

          I don't know which sample CDs you got, but the one I have has some of the same recordings as are on their web-site. To me the sound is distinctly non-pipe. The English sound to me was the best. What interested me was where at one point they turn off the fake reverb, and just play it dry. And what a dry and lifeless sound it is. If I remember correctly the CD was called "Quantum". It is a narrated demo CD.
          </p>

          I have a newer recording done by the Allen dealer in the Bay area. It is called "Encore" and it is played by Roger Nyquist. It is done on a new 80 stop Quantum with interlaced audio, acoustic portrait, etc. Was done on an installed organ in a church. Sounds much better than the factory demo disc, but still sounds like a digital (electronic) organ. The organ is very well setup, and there are some very beautiful moments on the disc.</p>

          I think for the most part Allen tries for a very middle of the road sound, a sound that doesn't offend. To me it doesn't inspire either. Maybe it is their tonal concepts, maybe their tone generation or maybe their speakers, but I just don't warm up to their sound. I prefer the late ADC models such as the ADC4300, ADC 5300 over what they did in the Renaissance series.</p>

          The best recordings of electronic organs I have heard are from Marshall &amp; Ogletree, Walker, and Saville (Musicom-based). Any of them far outshine anything I have heard from Allen or Rodgers.</p>

          AV</p>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



            The Roger Nyquist CD was sent to all AGO members.</P>


            There is so much reverberation it is impossible to judge the tone of the organ at all.</P>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!

              With what you pay for M&amp;O, walker and Saville (I don't actually know anything about saville), I should hope they would outshine Allen/Rodgers. As to the lifelessness of Allen et al. not only is there a distinct lack of life, you can't coax much life out of Allen to begin with. And if you are relying soley upon the internal speakers of the "organ" well, good luck getting any kind of realism. I have played a very fine Holtkamp, and gone back to playing the Allen at school and wondered aloud"What is this pile of crap?" in reference to the Allen.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                Correction: I was referring to the Roger Nyquist CD called Organ Majesty. Today the March issue of The American Organist arrived with aCD of Encore!by Roger Nyquist inserted. I'm listening to it right now through headphones and the bass and midrange are a blur of reverberation.</P>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                  I have to agree with the opening poster. My experience playing Allen Organs over the years has made me believe that with some of their larger installations here in the UK, particularly the newest instruments often do get the attention on voicing but some of the smaller instruments I don't think much done to them, relying on the default factory settings. I too have come across lifeless sounding Allen instruments and pedal departments which have no depth and frustrating because it might only need minor modifications to get it right.
                  </p>

                  I think 15 years ago, Allen Organs ruled the roost here in the UK but now there are a number of digital organ manufacturers who are equal if not better. Wyvern, Viscount and Eminent are producing much better instuments these days. I think Phoenix organs wipe Allen's off this planet imho, not only in terms of the quality of the sound and console but also that a huge amount of attention is given to voicing on-site.
                  </p>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                    &gt;at one point they turn off the fake reverb, and just play it dry.</p>

                    &gt;And what a dry and lifeless sound it is.</p>

                    </p>

                    I agree with Ary V... on the other hand, the reverb</p>

                    (convolution type) seems so good in relation to</p>

                    others I tested (Monarke, Ahlborn), I wonder why</p>

                    it's not more used? I know at least 2 manufacturers</p>

                    of hardware convolution modules. Not cheap. But I</p>

                    think there are simpler/cheaper modules with no A/D</p>

                    converters that would suit digital organ aplications -</p>

                    but still plenty are needed, when organs has many channels...
                    </p>

                    (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/yamahasrev1.asp</p>

                    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec9....htm?print=yes).</p>

                    </p>

                    </p>

                    &gt;If I remember correctly the CD was called "Quantum". It is a narrated demo CD.</p>

                    </p>

                    I think it's this (I have it too): http://www.allenorgan.com/store/aoc-031-00074aud.html</p>

                    </p>

                    &gt;sound that doesn't offend. To me it doesn't inspire either.</p>

                    &gt;Maybe it is their tonal concepts, maybe their tone generation or maybe their speakers,</p>

                    &gt;but I just don't warm up to their sound.</p>

                    </p>

                    I wonder if part of the problem is the following: all the Allen</p>

                    I've seen here (just 3, small country) had only a pair ("C/C#"</p>

                    principle) of speaker cabinets per division (2 for Positive,</p>

                    2 for Récit, etc) and Great+pedal gets 4 cabinets. "Standard"</p>

                    instalations are all like this, with possible an exception for festival</p>

                    trumpets which get separate speakers (Q385). For example, a</p>

                    "standard" Q325 instalation has 10 speacker cabinets, 2 for bass</p>

                    reinforcements, so 8 = 2 x 2 keyboards + 4 (great+pedal) = 8.
                    </p>

                    </p>

                    So!... has we know, for getting some "chorus" effect ("warmer"</p>

                    sound) when combining stops it is a common practice to slightly</p>

                    detune the stops (sometimes it's overdone, I've seen it recently in</p>

                    Johannus organs - just my opinion, others could like it).</p>


                    Back to Allen: problem is if you do that with 8' and 4' and</p>

                    then put sound in the same speaker =&gt; cancelation of phase</p>

                    problems appears [:S] (like Dr. Pykett's article explains:</p>

                    http://www.pykett.org.uk/completed_w...20Pipe%20Organ)</p>

                    so some manufacturers play it "safe".
                    </p>

                    </p>But like I said, it's probably just part of the problem.


                    </p>

                    Regards.</p>

                    </p>

                    -A</p>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                      I don't know if its totally fair to be comparing an Allen Renaissance product, the basis of the technology having originated from 1998, to say a modern Viscount or Ahlborn (both of which have just revised their lineups with new models featuring new technologies). Sure, Allen gave their Renaissance range a mid-life "face lift" which included the addition of a convolution module, but I think the basic sound generating technology has remained pretty much the same - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.</P>


                      It'd be like comparing a facelifted car with technology that is essentially 10 years old with a car that has just come out.</P>


                      Just my two pennies worth.</P>
                      1971 Allen Organ TC-3S (#42904) w/sequential capture system.
                      Speakers: x1 Model 100 Gyro, x1 Model 105 & x3 Model 108.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                        Nullogik,</p>

                        Well I don't know what is fair these days, but read this - straight from the Allen web-site,</p>

                        <font class="mainfont">"Patented Renaissance Quantum™ technology offers unprecedented control over even the smallest sound
                        nuance resulting in tonal realism previously not available from a pipeless organ. With years of research
                        and development and an investment of millions of dollars, Quantum organs can be customized in virtually
                        endless ways -- assuring that the sounds fit your specific style and taste. Multiple DSPs work together to
                        offer supercomputer power within the organ console."</font></p>

                        Clearly Allen does not think it plays second fiddle to anyone else in the technology stakes. Allen must believe that their technology is still "good enough" in today's marketplace.
                        </p>

                        For the most part I believe you are correct in concluding that today's Quantum is really just a somewhat refined Renaissance technology. More than anything, the new organs have larger memory banks, allowing multiple tonal suites. Seven or eight years ago they revamped their speakers with compression horn drivers. That probably changed the way their organs sounded more than the tone generating changes they have made. The convolution reverb also is said to be an improvement over what they had before. Interlaced audio can no doubt improve results of the overall sound, but does not help improve the basic tone coming from the tone generators.</p>

                        Regarding Viscount, the new Prestige organs are actually in terms of tone generation quite similar to previous the earlier Prestige organs which debuted in 1996. A buddy of mine is a Viscount dealer, and he says he can make the new organs sound pretty much identical with the older organs. A couple things with the new ones, do allow for sample swapping and also much better voicing via PC. Viscount is said to introduce a physical modeling instrument at this year's Frankfurt Fair.</p>

                        Ahlborn's newer organs are based on the DRAKE chip. This technology has been out for at least 5 years.</p>

                        Rodgers organs are still PDI.</p>

                        Johannus, Phoenix, Eminent, Musicom - all older technologies that soldier on.</p>

                        The brutal reality is that sales are not sufficient for large R &amp; D endeavors. So periodic tinkering is done - mostly for marketing purposes.</p>

                        What is also starting to hurt manufacturers is the MIDI driven PC virtual organs such as Hauptwerk. Why at least one major manufacturer has not jumped on board with this stuff I don't know. Enthusiasts are heading in that direction in droves. Some churches are now using Hauptwerk based organs. And what is worse for the manufacturers, some of the sample sets for Hauptwerk sound better (when properly setup) than just about all commercially produced products.</p>

                        If organs sold like digital cameras, the level of technology would be far, far higher.</p>

                        AV</p>

                        </p><p align="left">
                        </p>
                        <p align="center">
                        <font class="littlefont">
                        </font></p>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                          I haven't listened to much of the Allen classical stuff, but I will say that some of the theatre organ recordings are quite excellent. </p>

                          Jonas Nordwall's "Shades of the Fox" and "Definitive" feature some fantastic playing and two incredibly well voiced electronic theatre organs. (A GW 4 and a GW319 EX). The discs are about 9yrs old now, but the sounds are excellent.</p>

                          On the other hand the organ on the Lynn Larsen CD (on a GW319 of the same era) sounds rather electronic. Fantastic playing, but disappointing instrument, yet it contains the same ranks as the Jonas recording on the GW319. It's all in the voicing and the recording.
                          </p>

                          The biggest problem with any organ recording (especially electronic) is that everyone has their own opinion about what an organ should sound like. To really judge any instrument fairly it must be optimally voiced, and you must hear it live.</p>

                          Recordings suffer from not only the quality of the playback system, but also microphone placement, and the opinion of the recording engineer. </p>

                          I know of one theatre pipe organ that has had 2 recordings on it. Both played by excellent organists but the recording engineer on the first CD heavily equalized the recording and placed the mics on the same level as the chambers so it was an in your face recording. After the eq though, the organ sounds sorta "Wurlitzer". </p>

                          The second recording had little eq and the mics were placed on the lower level of the auditorium and the recording was closer to what you would hear in the room. The organ sounds brassier and decidedly more Barton like.
                          </p>

                          Both recordings received rave reviews and have sold well, yet the organ sounds different on each CD.</p>

                          Jeff
                          </p>

                          </p>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!

                            [quote user="arie v"]<p align="left">
                            </p>


                            Seven or eight years ago they revamped their speakers with compression horn drivers.
                            That probably changed the way their organs sounded more than the tone generating changes they have made.
                            [/quote]</p>

                            From what I've read, horn drivers have many advantages:</p>

                            namelly faster transient response and higher efficency which</p>

                            means less distorcion due to lesser movement in diaphragm</p>

                            (and of course, less power needed from amps).</p>

                            </p>

                            Interesing to compare Johannus-Monarke instalations with Allen:</p>

                            the first uses tipically 2 or 3 times more speakers for a similar</p>

                            organ, i.e., Allen is clearly beliving the superior quality of their</p>

                            horn speaker and so use less channels.</p>

                            </p>

                            But I was told horn concentrate more the power in a narrow</p>

                            angle than convencional ones. So it's needed to "sum" sound</p>

                            in the air (so to speak) i.e. people can not be placed directly</p>

                            facing the horns.</p>

                            </p>

                            Allen instalations I've seen (Q325 "standard") have this "difuse"</p>

                            sound: it comes to organist ears after a thousand reflections</p>

                            (speakers are facing ceiling and walls on church)... can't say</p>

                            I like it (nor the delay), it's like not knowing where the organ</p>

                            is (sound comes from all the place [:|]).
                            </p>

                            </p>[quote user="arie v"]
                            <p align="left">
                            </p>



                            MIDI driven PC virtual organs such as Hauptwerk.(...)</p>

                            Some churches are now using Hauptwerk based organs.</p>

                            (...)some of the sample sets for Hauptwerk sound better</p>

                            (when properly setup) than just about all commercially produced products.</p>

                            [/quote]</p>

                            </p>

                            Itgives a lot to think. After all, using regular PCs is also Marshall and Ogeltree</p>

                            way (difference is operating system: Linux versus Windows or Mac for</p>

                            Hauptwerke). Any regular PC has tremendous processing power.
                            </p>


                            </p>

                            From what I've heard, the only limitation in Hauptwerke right now</p>

                            is the lack of a quality big simphonic organ sample bank with</p>

                            "dry" samplings (the ones that ehxist right now like Milan Audio's</p>

                            Notre Dame de Metz Cavaillé-Coll are "wet" i.e. with reverb</p>

                            embebed in samplings, which of course limits the aplications;</p>

                            http://www.milandigitalaudio.com/ndm...coll-demos.htm).</p>

                            </p>

                            Regards.</p>

                            </p>

                            -A</p>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Exactly, who is responsible for this??!!



                              -A,</p>

                              Sounds like you have been reading the Gospel according to "St. Allen".</p>

                              Horn speakers are definitely more directional sounding than standard cone drivers. That is why Allen installs tends to put them high on a wall, or try to use a wall or ceiling as deflectors. It only really works this way if the wall and or ceiling is an ideal deflector for all frequencies, and none of them are. Off axis horns are generally poorer.
                              </p>

                              Horn speakers also tend to colour sound. I can almost always tell if a horn driver has been employed. For organs they work best with stops such as horizontal trumpets (Trompette de Fete, Royal Trumpet, etc, or even a Tuba)</p>

                              They are most often used in sound reinforcement because of their efficiency. Isn't it interesting that Allen promotes these speakers for their own reasons, but can't even bring themselves to tell you on their web-site how many audio channels or speakers are used with their models. Maybe it would be embarrassing for them to do so. Not so long ago, I tried out a R-320 (3 manual, 50 stop instrument). It came with a complement of 4 audio channels plus a summed bass channel. Gt/Ped/Choir came through 2 speakers, and the Sw through the remaining 2 speakers. It was plenty loud - but not terribly pleasant to my ears. And yes, the speakers were the HR 200, the ones with the trumpet style horn treble speaker in it. No matter how you cut it, 50 stops through 4 channels plus a bass means an awful lot of phase summing and phase cancellations.</p>

                              Allen must be re-thinking their audio channelling, as they have increased the number of audio channels on all models starting with the Q-325 and larger. They also have something called inter-laced audio which again increases the number of audio channels. And then with their Elite (custom) organs they use even more audio channels.</p>

                              Just remember, a digi organ needs audio channels and speakers, just like a pipe organ needs pipes. After all that is what produces the sound that reaches your ears.</p>

                              AV</p>


                              </p>

                              Comment

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