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    #16
    Michael,

    Yes, we have had a similar conversation before, And I'm trying to determine if there are better options now than there were back then. I don't know if I'm still pounding away on the same set of nails or trying to contemplate whether a different kind of fastener is now available and could possibly be used to obtain a better outcome in the space I have available. Some of the newer SVS sub-woofers, for example, were not available back then. We know they can go low. The question is, will they blend well within our full organ ensemble and not take over when a lighter touch is needed.

    I've visited various Forums in this site over the years. Many people bring some subjects back. Frankly, some goals and questions do seem to reoccur with regularity. Do new visitors need to have to scroll back through thirty or more pages of posts to get to the latest version? I promise that I'm not trying to be an intelligent equine animal.

    In short, I'm content to leave the placement of this more recent conversation up to you.

    Warmly,
    Bach On
    Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

    Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
    Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
    We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
    Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
    I'm a Methodist organist.
    I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
    Became a Technology Specialist.
    Retired from Education after 32 years.

    Comment


    • myorgan
      myorgan commented
      Editing a comment
      Bach On,

      Let's leave it as is for now.

      Regarding the topic at hand, I doubt the laws of physics regarding 32' frequencies have changed, but who knows. Perhaps a new technology has come to the fore in the year or two since the original conversation.

      Best for finding something more workable in your pipe organ.

      Michael

    • Admin
      Admin commented
      Editing a comment
      There's no hard and fast rule as to when to start a new topic as opposed to resurrecting an old one, but I would suggest putting oneself in the position of someone searching the Forum for information. I think in most cases where the same question is being asked it's better to continue the old thread rather than scattering the answers in multiple topics which more than likely will duplicate much of the same information.

      It's never appropriate to start a new topic when there is already an ongoing active discussion in an existing topic. I recently became annoyed with a user who started a new topic asking the same question he had posed in an active topic he started that already had over 40 responses. Basically, he didn't like the answers he got in his original thread!

      Getting back to the subject at hand, I created this topic by splitting posts from another topic started by the OP in order to give it visibility. These posts were under a topic title and forum where no one ever would have found them. It's always better to start a new topic with a title specific to its intent rather than tack it on to a topic with an unrelated title.
      Last edited by Admin; 08-11-2019, 10:40 AM.

    #17
    Here's a simulation of what the Parts Express 15 inch subwoofer (DCS385-4, pn 295-206) can do in a 15 cubic ft enclosure tuned to 16 Hz. Does not include any bass support caused by the room, which is often significant. For a $100 woofer, this is quite remarkable performance. If you want wall shaking response, you'll need multiple woofers--the thermal power limit according to the specs means you'd get at most 119 dB from a single driver. Any cabinet for this sort of application needs to be substantially braced to prevent the panels from flexing--power used to flex the panels is power that isn't going towards moving air.

    Comment


    • rjsilva
      rjsilva commented
      Editing a comment
      I think toodles has a good solution here. BachOn could shape the box to fit his space and use two drivers so he’s not limited in output. Relatively cheap as well.

    #18
    Toodles,

    So, if I were to replace the driver of an Allen B-40 with the Parts Express driver, what is your thought regarding the effectiveness of the woofer at that point? I have three (3) B-40s, and one of them is my test woofer and used for moving.

    That said, I have a B-20 on my ADC-4300 at church, and I have to say I am impressed every time I hear it (but only down to F in the 32' range–below that it can't be heard as well or felt as much).

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

    Comment


      #19
      When I was over at the Do It Yourself Audio site looking for ideas, there was a guy who wanted me to pull out all those big Allen HC12s. He wanted me to use a bass wall - like eight or ten of big bass speakers in large ported cabinets. Then I was to use only a couple of modest sized audiophile speakers to play everything else.

      Maybe I should have. But I had just returned from picking up those Allen speakers in Miami and repairing them. I still think they sound excellent.

      BO

      Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

      Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
      Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
      We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
      Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
      I'm a Methodist organist.
      I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
      Became a Technology Specialist.
      Retired from Education after 32 years.

      Comment


        #20
        Originally posted by myorgan View Post
        Toodles,

        So, if I were to replace the driver of an Allen B-40 with the Parts Express driver, what is your thought regarding the effectiveness of the woofer at that point? I have three (3) B-40s, and one of them is my test woofer and used for moving.

        That said, I have a B-20 on my ADC-4300 at church, and I have to say I am impressed every time I hear it (but only down to F in the 32' range–below that it can't be heard as well or felt as much).

        Michael
        Myorgan: as I don't know the cabinet volume of the B-40 nor the port tuning, I can't determine if the Dayton woofer would be better or worse. If you have internal dimensions (i.e., external dimensions less wall thickness on 6 sides) for the B-40 and the inner diameter and length of the port on that cabinet, I could simulate the response for you.

        Comment


        • myorgan
          myorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          John, would you happen to have that information handy? My Allen Audio Manual doesn't provide the information for the B-40 speaker.

          Michael

        #21
        So one suggested option is to modify the B-40 box by putting in the newer Parts Express 15 inch subwoofer. I'm not at the church. Does the B-40 box contain a 15 inch driver? Too, we need to figure out the internal volume of the B-40. And we need to figure out the port situation.

        Plus issues. I know a rebuilt B-40 would go right back in the space of the existing sub.

        Negatives, still lots of variables. And would need to buy one of the $100 drivers.

        Plan B is to put two of those 15 inch Parts Express drivers in a 12 cu. ft. box tuned to 16 Hz. Throwing something against the wall to play What If?

        Negatives - too numerous to mention. Would need two $100 drivers. This would be a "Hey, yall. Watch this!"




        Click image for larger version  Name:	what if.jpg Views:	0 Size:	51.5 KB ID:	662727
        Bach On
        Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

        Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
        Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
        We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
        Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
        I'm a Methodist organist.
        I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
        Became a Technology Specialist.
        Retired from Education after 32 years.

        Comment


        • myorgan
          myorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          Bach On,

          My question was selfish rather than to apply to your situation. If it benefits you, then well enough. However, I am asking selfishly for my benefit rather than that of others. Sorry.

          Michael

        • Bach-On
          Bach-On commented
          Editing a comment
          Take a look at the rough drawing from the previous post. Then check out this link toodles posted. It just seems that a different driver with some careful redesign by the stuff impacting the physics of this could/maybe/might/pleaseGod/just possibly improve the lower range. Remember that I'm playing "What if?"

          https://www.audioxpress.com/article/the-hideaway-tl-sub

          BO

        #22
        All is fine with us as far as I'm concerned, Michael. As I've said, I've been all over the place where making 16 Hz. a major goal is concerned. I'm like someone who is Manic - Depressive. Right now I'm in over into my Manic Phase.

        I've mainly been focused on getting a better pedal sound. And my focus has been MOSTLY on the speakers, electronics, etc. But a few days ago, 'beel m' posted in the "Prodigal Returns Again" thread I posted, "An interesting specification, Bach-On. I see a some weaknesses:"

        It may just be that I have made a set of choices for pedal voices that are "weak". Look at the limited stops I have:

        Pedals
        A 16 foot Principal (Digital)
        A 16 foot Leiblich Gedect (Digital)
        An 8 foot Diapason (Pipes)
        An 8 foot Gedect (Pipes)
        A 4 foot Flute (Pipes)
        A programmable stop called Alterable 1 (16 foot Sub-bass - Digital)
        A programmable stop called Alterable 2 (32 foot Bourdon - Digital)
        Great to Pedal 8
        Great to Pedal 4
        Swell to Pedal 8
        Swell to Pedal 4

        As beel m pointed out, there is only one 4 foot selection available in the pedals - a 4' that is a rather light Flute. It's actually an extension of the 8' flutes in the Great Division. Small pipe organs often do this. (At one point, for example. the Diapason on the Swell and the Great were the very same pipes.) There is no reed, 8 or 4 foot in the pedal Division. There's no Mixture. You get my point. Too, maybe the samples I've chosen just aren't all that good or are a poor match for the rest of the ensemble. (Remember that this console is not full AGO width. So we didn't have room to add more tabs to the tab rail. I repeat: "there is no more room at the inn."

        This is, afterall, a relatively small organ with some issues or "weaknesses". The fact that so much of the bass isn't making it out to the Sanctuary is - I think - at least partially because of the small opening from the pipe/speaker chamber out to the Sanctuary. Fixing that would be VERY messy and expensive. So I don't see it as an option I can seriously consider. I consider this a major weakness.

        Going back to my list of Pedal stops, perhaps it would be better for me to take the Programmable stop now assigned for the 32 foot Bourdon and turn it into a 4 or 2 foot Principal in the Pedals. I'm still waiting to get the rotary switch working that will allow me to quickly change out the voices to which a tab can be assigned. It will have 4 positions. That would mean - if I'm understanding it right - I can change each of those Programmable tabs in the pedal to four different stops in mere seconds. It's rather like those knobs for transposing on some Allen organs. I simply haven't been able to get our Artisan guy to come make it work.

        All I know is that I have become more and more convinced that the pedal line - particularly when I'm playing a robust FULL ORGAN Ensemble, is just not as satisfying - I mean that it doesn't sound as much like a real pipe organ - as the rest of the organ sound.

        And there are lots of potential reasons this could be the case. Maybe I'm only on item #9 in a long list of those potential reasons.

        And remember that my hearing equipment has now been revealed to have some issues. This is still new to me. I'm trying to figure out the best way to solve issues with this new paradigm.

        There's the once famous line from the Dirty Harry movies: "A mans got to know his limitations." Maybe it's me AND the organ.

        I'm appreciative of the "WE" spirit of the members who haunt this forum.

        Warmly,
        Bach On



        Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

        Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
        Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
        We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
        Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
        I'm a Methodist organist.
        I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
        Became a Technology Specialist.
        Retired from Education after 32 years.

        Comment


          #23
          With your Great and Swell couplers I personally don’t see a huge problem with the pedal stops. It is lean but I don’t think it’d be the cause of a weak sound (assuming they’re balanced well). With that said, a Choral Bass 4’ may fill things in a bit.

          It occurred to me that maybe we’d be able to advise better if you showed us photos. A photo of the front of the auditorium, the relative size of the speaker/pipe chamber opening, the speaker/pipe chamber itself, etc. Maybe you posted them before but I don’t remember.

          Part of the reason I ask is that moving a subwoofer out of the chamber might be useful. At my church we have the two subs on the floor on opposing sides. They were made ‘decorative’ so they look good. I know you use the shades but maybe you could set the digital voices which come out of the sub to respond to the expression pedal.
          Viscount C400 3-manual
          8 channels + 2 reverb channels (w/ Lexicon MX200)
          Klipsch RSX-3 speakers and Klipsch Ultra 5.1 subwoofers

          Comment


            #24
            John,

            Did you ever find the specifications/measurements for the B-40 cabinet?

            Michael
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

            Comment


            • jbird604
              jbird604 commented
              Editing a comment
              Unfortunately, Allen doesn't have any info on the B-40 on the site any more, and I don't have one around to take measurements from. You may have to use a tape measure and do a lot of figuring to get the true internal dimensions, and even then it will be hard to get the precise volume, as there are braces in there and the volume of the driver itself must be subtracted.

            #25
            I'll take some pictures this week and post to give you guys the 25 cent scenic tour. Frankly, my deadline this past week was to complete moving the electronics over to the new rack and cleaning up after the dissection of the old rack in order to be able to play it for church so nobody got mad. You know how those pesky Methodists are.

            I still need to shift the new rack over to the new dolly I made with the much larger wheels. It's just that having that rack tip over and go crashing to the floor would probably be detrimental, so I need to find some victims to help me change out that dolly. And I'm going to need to install those fans once that new door jam and door is installed.

            As RJSilva did, several have previously suggested putting a bass speaker in the choir loft, or out in the Sanctuary. I'm not saying it absolutely can't be done, but the expression shoe only adjusts the opening and closing of the shades. It does not adjust the volume of the speakers at all. Some creative electronics might change that BUT..........

            Some will recall that I made the decision early-on to have the speakers do what pipes do. They play at full volume all the time. Sure, some pipe sounds are louder than other pipe sounds, but all the pipes in that rank are generally voiced to play at the same approximate sound level. Let me repeat my logic - some speakers might reproduce some sounds in certain ranges better than others at one particular volume level. A graph showing the frequency response of a speaker might show peaks and valleys in the response. An example would be a 32 foot stop. Many have speakers that could play certain "pipes" of that rank very well. But some sounds might be louder on certain notes than others. This characteristic might vary depending on the volume at which the speaker is playing.

            Our Artisan system allows me to adjust the volume of every single "pipe". It would not allow me to do that if the speaker's efficiency kept changing according to the changing "volume level" of a speaker. So if F# (note 26) tended to change it's volume in comparison with other notes in that rank depending on how loud the volume was, I'd never get it balanced properly. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but that was the way this hybrid system was planned and has been executed. I use the 4 foot Octav, for example as the standard for the the Great. That is a real organ pipe. Then I set the balance of the 8 foot Principal or Diapason to properly balance with that Octav rank. Same approach for the 8 foot Flute on the Great. On the Swell it is the 4 foot Koppel Flute and the 8 foot Salicianal. The pipes set the benchmark. Then I set the digitals to match the benchmark.

            As usual. I just keep over answering and trying to explain the secrets of the known universe as I think I understand them, when all I had to do was say, "No. Can't do it." Just another of my flaws. E pluribus unim.

            BO
            Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

            Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
            Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
            We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
            Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
            I'm a Methodist organist.
            I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
            Became a Technology Specialist.
            Retired from Education after 32 years.

            Comment


            • samibe
              samibe commented
              Editing a comment
              Often the really large pipes in a pipe organ end up outside of the expression box because it's even more expensive to make the box big enough. So, if you were to put a woofer outside the box in the sanctuary that only really took care of the really low bass (100Hz and below), it would probably be just fine to not have it express with the rest of the organ.
              Last edited by samibe; 08-12-2019, 04:42 PM.

            #26
            John,

            Did you ever find the specifications/measurements for the B-40 cabinet?

            Michael
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

            Comment


              #27
              samibe
              #25.1

              samibe commented Yesterday, 06:49 PM


              "Often the really large pipes in a pipe organ end up outside of the expression box because it's even more expensive to make the box big enough. So, if you were to put a woofer outside the box in the sanctuary that only really took care of the really low bass (100Hz and below), it would probably be just fine to not have it express with the rest of the organ."

              Yes. I've played many of those organs over the years. I just don't care for their sound and find them far more challenging to play than organs where all the pipes work by the same rules.

              BO
              Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

              Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
              Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
              We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
              Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
              I'm a Methodist organist.
              I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
              Became a Technology Specialist.
              Retired from Education after 32 years.

              Comment


                #28
                Here is a link to my B-40 conversion/driver upgrade:
                https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...acement-driver
                Allen 5300-DK, Hammond A-105, Conn Custom 905-DK

                Comment


                  #29
                  Looks like an interesting project. What were the final results in terms of frequencies?

                  BO
                  Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                  Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                  Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                  We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                  Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                  I'm a Methodist organist.
                  I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                  Became a Technology Specialist.
                  Retired from Education after 32 years.

                  Comment


                  • Hamman
                    Hamman commented
                    Editing a comment
                    BO,
                    I never took any measurements but I can tell you they work great. Low "C" on the pedal board shakes the walls....and not violently like something at 40hz at 120 db would do. Using a a 32' pedal stop with the right music material works the best I've seen with all my experiments that I have done in the past. I even thought of lowering the CuFt design of the B-40's to see what, if any better, effect It would have.....yet I'm just so very pleased with how they turned out with a simple driver change that I don't. I think its the best I'm going to get in my acoustics.
                    BTW....listen to when this gentleman applies the 32' pedal stops......just absolutely amazing! Computer speakers will not do it justice as won't some cheap earbuds!
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osOtuE2z0Ao

                  #30
                  I sure hope all this discussion helps come up with some ways to provide that little extra "something" that we all want to get out of our pedal stops. It is something that I have heard only a few times in my life on any electronic organ. Getting speakers to move enough air to literally change the barometric pressure within a room at a rate of 16 Hz requires incredible power and very smart design.

                  Oddly enough, the two types of speaker cabinet from which I have heard truly profound organ bass are both very old Rodgers designs. The old "P-1" cabinet from Rodgers is a huge tightly-sealed box as large as anybody's refrigerator, and the driver is a single EV 30" unit that Rodgers modified by coating the paper cone with some thick gunk. That old box can shake a very large church with a profundity you've probably only heard from some big 32' open wood pipes.

                  The other speaker that I've heard doing this kind of bass work is the Rodgers P-32. This box is probably half the size of the P-1, contains two 15" drivers with foam or rubber surrounds, and is VENTED. You could hardly imagine two more different designs, yet both of them have proven to me that they can shake a large building with credible bass output.

                  The "Thigpen Rotary Woofer" that gets talked about so much is something I've never heard, but from all the talk, it must be able to do the job as well. Probably better than any cone-type speaker, since it uses an electric fan to move air in and out of a structure at the required rate to produce the infrasonic effects that we so prize in the bottom octave of 32' flue stops.

                  If there is any way to do it, I'd suggest than an "infinite baffle" setup would come closest to truly doing the job in your church. Because the organ chamber is not ideal at all for projecting bass, with limited space, peculiar shape and dimensions, the swell shades in the way, it may be that you're more likely to achieve your goal with a very large driver with its rear in a different room or space altogether, so that it can in effect "pump air" and thus change the barometric pressure in the church at the requisite rate.
                  John
                  ----------
                  Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
                  Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
                  Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
                  Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                  Comment


                  • jbird604
                    jbird604 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Michael, I don't have any info on the B-40, and Allen doesn't offer any on their site any more. If you take the external measurements and allow for the thickness of the material and the recessing of the baffle, you might get an approximate value for the volume. Shouldn't be hard to measure the diameter and length of the port with a tape measure. I don't have a B-40 on hand to do any measuring. My guess is that the stock speaker is well matched to the box and port, and a different driver might not help.

                    That said, it MIGHT sound better with a modern rubber-surround driver with a large Vas number (very compliant) if the port were closed off. The box is big enough that a highly compliant woofer could get down pretty low, and there wouldn't be any of that steep drop-off in response that a vented box gives. Just a gentle slope as the frequency goes down. Wouldn't hurt to try, if you want to invest in a driver. The port can be closed off with a square of plywood or even with a dense foam rubber plug cut to fit inside it.

                  • myorgan
                    myorgan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    John,

                    Do you know the basic construction–folded horn, infinite baffle, etc.? I've never seen the inside of the speaker (with the driver removed).

                    Thanks for sharing about closing the port. I'll try that sometime. I have a spare 15" Allen with rubber surrounds; I may try that driver if I don't have to use it first to replace one in a HC-12, -14, or ,15 first.

                    Michael

                  • jbird604
                    jbird604 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Michael, the B40 is just a standard vented box. Nothing inside except possibly some bracing and the vent tube itself. Do try putting the rubber surround woofer in it and closing the port. You should get a very pleasant and solid sound like that. (And no voodoo!)
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