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    #31
    Interestingly, the 30 inch Electrovoice woofer used in the Rodgers P1 is rated for 60 watts maximum power. The enclosure is likely a true infinite baffle--it sure isn't relying on immense power to provide substantial bass--just a woofer that moves a huge volume of air because of its large diameter. The 30 inch woofer was used in the Electrovoice Patrician speaker, info here: https://www.electrovoice.com/binary/...0800%20EDS.pdf. These woofers come up on eBay at time, right now there are two auctions priced at $10,000. I suspect the seller is valuing their "bragging rights" more than the drivers are actually worth.

    I have a Rodgers P32 and intend to measure the parameters of the woofer used in it one of these days. Removing a very heavy woofer from a cabinet is something I do not consider to be "fun" as it requires caution to avoid damage, so I haven't gotten around to it. The design of this cabinet is pretty straightforward--two woofers capable of moving a lot of air in a huge ported cabinet--the sort of thing I generally recommend for those in search of infrabass performance. The other approaches are infinite baffle, as JBird suggests, and his approach of an equally large sealed enclosure with similar woofers.

    Comment


      #32
      '"MORE POWER, SCOTTY!!!" - - - - - - - - - "I'M GIVING YOU ALL SHE'S GOT, CAPTAIN!!!"

      We've touched on this before - but the conversation soon seems to run off in other directions. The fine print and specs of many amplifiers reveal that they have filters that tune out the lowest sounds. Or did I just hallucinate that? So someone might have a BIG SUB WOOFer that can play 16 Hz, but the amp has reduced the "sound level" of notes in that signal so the result is the sound pressure level is very low own low.

      I think the Crown XLS1500 we have in our system to power two of our speakers is such an animal. I'm not sure if the I Nuke 3000 we also use has that same "feature". I seem to recall that the DSP of the I Nuke 3000 has a lower limit of 20 Hertz. I can raise the 20 Hz. level and have some impact on signals just above and below 20 Hz. And I know such cutoffs aren't like hitting a wall, but are a gradual downhill path. I have this vague memory of having heard someone say this filtering was done so amps would not make that BUMP or POP when first powered up that might damage electronics and speakers. Some organs handled this by having a delay for when the circuit to the speakers went active. So they could snap, crackle and pop - then a "relay" would connect the speakers. Remember too that I have the Behringer UltraGain in that signal chain. Perhaps it is also cutting back some of that lowest part of the signal.

      I've brought up the SVS sub woofers in this thread more than once. And they have their own internal amps to push their carefully designed and powerful "Clydesdale" industrial-strength speakers. One would think those internal amps were also carefully designed so the pair worked well together to handle all that low down stuff at a higher sound pressure level (aka: volume). Thus, the lowest sounds are carefully beefed up, rather than cut back. The power level on those amps goes up with the price.

      Has anyone tried using a Bash "plate type" amp designed for sub woofers in a home brewed organ speaker? They have knobs that have numbers that go on down to shape the cut-off range and the strength. JBird, you've made lots of them using those MM speakers you trust. Ever put a "sub-woofer" amp in that signal chain?

      The traditional paradigm in the organ industry wasn't what we see these days with 100s or even 1,000s of watts of power. As I understand it, most Allen organs - even the fairly big honkers had amplifiers rated at 100 watts or less. BUT they seemed to be able to provide adequate power for some of the big - and not all that efficient speakers - that were used. But those amps were designed for ALL the signals the organ was expected to play - like the SVS system probably has been.

      Maybe my subs can actually do 16 - and on up better than I think - but some of the signal strength down low has been "tuned out of the mix".

      There was a series of Crown amps that didn't include that filter. I forget now what they were. I found some being sold used on eBay. And I wonder about those plate amps for sub woofers that can be bought at Parts Express. Perhaps the signal path is where some of the issue I'm concerned about comes from. BUT that Walker Quaker doesn't have its own internal amp, does it? Maybe the organ amp feeding that channel is not cutting that signal down.

      Open to the collective wisdom of the more experienced members of the peanut gallery. In the absence of that, most any B.S. will also be carefully considered.

      Bach On


      Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

      Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
      Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
      We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
      Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
      I'm a Methodist organist.
      I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
      Became a Technology Specialist.
      Retired from Education after 32 years.

      Comment


        #33
        Infrasonic filters protect drivers from non-musical transients in the extreme low bass frequencies. Such transients can occur from amplifier power up, turntable rumble, tone arm set-down, and trying to produce sound effects such as thunder, cannon shots, and the like. Below the cut-off frequency of a ported speaker there is nothing to limit the travel of the cone except the surround and suspension (spider) of the driver so such frequencies can damage the drivers especially with amplifiers of extreme power. The bigger the amp, the more important such filters are.

        It's really only on organs where were are trying to use such low frequencies for musical purposes. The relatively old fashioned Rodgers and Allen amplifiers did not include such filters, and were of only moderate power. Their speaker systems were of very efficient design, so the extreme power wasn't necessary. it's the best approach for organ speakers, really.

        Allen did, however, include such filters into some of their bass cabinets according to their crossover schematics.

        Comment


          #34
          Bach-on, the Walker Quaker at my church is driven by a QSC CX302:

          https://www.qsc.com/systems/products...es-2-ch/cx302/

          At home I use a Walker-modified Carver TFM-15CB which also does not filter (at least not at 16hz). On a side note, the Yamaha CA-1000 I use for my home stereo doesn’t filter in that range either (I drive the SVS sub via the high level inputs).

          Why do some amps filter and others don’t? It doesn’t appear to be a quality or cost-savings issue.
          Viscount C400 3-manual
          8 channels + 2 reverb channels (w/ Lexicon MX200)
          Klipsch RSX-3 speakers and Klipsch Ultra 5.1 subwoofers

          Comment


            #35
            Slightly off-topic, but we could all use a smile this morning:

            After reading all of the verbal hand-wringing here about the details of speaker design and placement, I just serviced a nice Wicks-rebadged Viscount three manual that is about 10 years old. One of the complaints was "random" notes not playing, which I traced to two dead channels that cut out every other note on the C/C# ranks. That observation led me to shimmy up the stepladder into the two matching speaker chambers, where I found--primarily air conditioning equipment. Evidently, the HVAC contractor had identified those big, nearly empty rooms with large air grills as the ideal place to locate their air handler and ductwork.

            In the right chamber containing the air handler, four JBL stage monitor speakers were strewn about, none of them facing the grills or the nave. Two were actually swung around and stuffed into the corner facing the wall.

            The secretary, when I quizzed her, could not remember when the AC was installed, so they had to have been living with this problem for several years.

            I moved the speakers as best I could, but floor space is almost gone. I have recommended that the church build sturdy shelves above the AC equipment so the speakers can be placed properly.

            Oh, and both chambers have retractable projection screens mounted midway up the grills, so even with enough floor space the speakers would be covered anytime a video is playing. Maybe the organ would not be in use at those times, but who would remember to roll up the screens before the music resumes?

            The organist remarked that the organ is much "more brilliant" now.

            So BO, don't sweat the details at your church--matters can always be much worse.

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              Don,

              Or you could suspend the speakers from the ceiling so they speak OVER the HVAC duct work and projection screens. Better yet, punch some holes in the screen and see if they notice the better sound in the organ. <evil grin>

              Michael

            #36
            Yes indeed, matters can be much worse! I've run into several situations where the church installed screens right over the organ chambers without any concern for the sound that needed to get out. In one case, the screens are actually thick PLYWOOD panels that cover over half the chamber opening, effectively blocking the organ sound from getting out except through a slot at the top. I imagine the organist was rather perplexed the first Sunday he or she tried to play after these massive monstrosities were installed!

            The situation that BO is working with is obviously not that bad, but he is dealing with the fact that the opening out into the church is smaller than the internal dimensions of the chamber itself, so the sound is definitely being restricted to some degree. And I suspect that this restriction is making it hard for him to get the low frequencies that he wants.

            To answer another question directed to me above... No, I haven't tried the "plate" amps or any other purpose-built subwoofer amps in an organ setup. Since nearly every dedicated "sub" amp that you can buy is actually intended for home theater use, you may find that they have built-in infrasonic filters that will keep them from being effective all the way down to the vaunted 16 Hz. The loud booms and bangs that we hear at the cinema and try to reproduce at home don't necessarily contain frequency content that goes that low. A loud and sustained fundamental pitch of 30 Hz is enough to shake most any structure and produce the "chest-pounding" effect we associate with pipe organ sound. Theater system designers use that knowledge to produce systems that create massive-sounding bass without depending on the ability to get way down there. It's only us folks in the organ world who are obsessed with 16 Hz!

            John
            ----------
            Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
            Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
            Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
            Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

            Comment


            • rjsilva
              rjsilva commented
              Editing a comment
              Maybe times have changed under your feet, but home theatre folks are quite obsessed with <20hz content as well, probably more than organ folk. SVS didn’t make their subs for organs! Check this out:

              https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...topics/2763785

              I remember reading a post a while back where someone was trying to decide whether the SVS 16-46PC+ (the model I have) is better in 16hz or 12hz mode because they wanted the lower extension for a particular film. They opted for 16hz mode because in 12hz mode the sub would ‘clank’ from over-excursion.
              Last edited by rjsilva; 08-14-2019, 02:38 PM.

            • jbird604
              jbird604 commented
              Editing a comment
              Wow! Well, I don't follow the home theater groups, but it's interesting that they are looking at bass extension that low. Of course it's a little different with us, as we need the lows to be genuinely "musical" and not just a big boom or thump!

            #37
            Originally posted by rjsilva View Post
            Maybe times have changed under your feet, but home theatre folks are quite obsessed with <20hz content as well, probably more than organ folk. SVS didn’t make their subs for organs! ...
            But the sound effects in movies are transients--an organist can press on low C with a 32 ft stop all day and the amp and speaker are not allowed to wimp out. Believe me, organ audio is much more demanding long term.

            Comment


            • rjsilva
              rjsilva commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes, I was just referring to the desire for those lower frequencies. Though I’d be surprised if an SVS amp wimped out on any of their higher end subs.

              Amusingly, the other day I was switching my Carver into mono bridged mode, just for fun to get more power to the Walker B2, and was seeing how much I could push it with the low C of an untersatz 32’. When I was at about 2/3rds up (maybe 150W?) I started to smell ‘something’. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the amp, and it shouldn’t have been the Walker crossover (which supposedly is rated for 200W min). I couldn’t figure out what it was but whatever it was didn’t like it. I haven’t tried it again since but I’d really like to know...

            #38
            I stand to be corrected, but I think SVS has tried to offer something aimed for the theater market AND for the music market. And all the foam plugs to alter the response curve of some of the of the SVS line was/is probably an attempt to make a product that has improved flexibility. I've previously written that I haven't heard one of the newer SVS subs connected in a full size organ - such as would be used in a church. And as we have discussed, not everyone feels a 32 foot rank is all that important.

            I think putting a a fairly big SVS sub in the place of that Allen B-40 could be done. And that is right in front of the chamber opening where the shades are located. I just worry about sympathetic vibrations in the pipe/speaker chamber. And I wonder if it would be a good match with the remainder of our speakers.

            As John has pointed out, the fact that the low bass volume is substantially higher with the side door opened is a clear sign that at least some of those lowest waves aren't making it through the opening out to the sanctuary. But I also don't know if our amps are cutting off at least some of that infrasonic stuff.

            Somebody asked me to post some pictures of our Sanctuary. I'll do that in the next post.

            Thanks for the input.

            BO





            Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

            Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
            Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
            We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
            Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
            I'm a Methodist organist.
            I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
            Became a Technology Specialist.
            Retired from Education after 32 years.

            Comment


            • rjsilva
              rjsilva commented
              Editing a comment
              As much as I like the SVS subs, I think you’d be entering an experimental realm if you tried one. It may work out amazing and have long term reliability but no one (here) really knows.

              I think Toodles’ recommendation is the way to go.

            #39
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            The visible pipes are a facade. They do not play. There are three sections of pews. They have cushions. And the aisles have carpet, though there is no carpet directly beneath the pews.

            BO
            Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

            Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
            Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
            We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
            Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
            I'm a Methodist organist.
            I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
            Became a Technology Specialist.
            Retired from Education after 32 years.

            Comment


            • rjsilva
              rjsilva commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks! Where is the speaker chamber opening?

            #40
            Click image for larger version

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            The speaker/pipe shades and chamber opening is behind the facade pipes with the Methodist Flame and the Cross Logo on it. I believe the opening is roughly 7 feet by 7 feet. Then you have the vertical shades and the metal pipes. You can see how close this is to the choir and the organ bench. It is probably 30 feet from the first row of pews.

            It's a little hard to tell from this photo, but there is a proscenium area that extends up above the choir loft arch that you can see. Look at that air return vent on the left, above the door. The ceiling is about the same height as the ceiling in the rest of the sanctuary. So that "arch" covers some of the choir loft opening. That traps some sound from getting out of that recessed area. Too, there is a velvet modesty curtain behind the organ. The choir loft floor has carpet and the movable chairs of cushions. The result is that this is not a live area.

            You can see three doors in this photo. The one you can see in the choir loft is through the wall where the pipe/speaker chamber ends. There is a door about 8 feet above the floor in a back hallway. The other end of the pipe/speaker chamber is approximately in the middle of that dark brown closed door on the far right.

            We cut out the back wall of part of the pipe chamber about 8 years ago and erected a wall in the nursery. Look at the photo (previous post) of the amp rack in the closet. This was the wall behind the speaker chamber. There is a door about 8 feet from the floor of the nursery that allows entry into the speaker chamber. Generally, all the speakers are in the area behind those facade organ pipes. I estimate that the distance from the shades and opening to the back wall of the speaker area is just under 7 feet.

            Air lines and pipe receivers dictated where the pipes had to be. They are closer to the shades opening. I then got all the speakers as close to the opening as I could.

            There is a drawing somewhere that shows how the speakers are positioned in the chamber. I'll hunt for it and post it if I can locate it.

            There. That's the 25 cent tour, I'll send you the bill.

            BO

            Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

            Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
            Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
            We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
            Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
            I'm a Methodist organist.
            I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
            Became a Technology Specialist.
            Retired from Education after 32 years.

            Comment


              #41
              That’s a very challenging arrangement...!

              Maybe a solution for better bass, which may not be physically possible, would be to put a sub right at the opening to the chamber (with a ported sub, try to get the port and speaker pointing as much as possible toward the opening). Literally right at the opening. My thought is to minimise the bass ‘trapped’ in the chamber, possibly cancelling out waves. You may need to limit the frequencies going to the sub if you find that the mid-high bass is overpowering the rest of the speakers.

              Maybe you’ve tried that but it’s the only thing I can come up with.

              I also wonder what effect on the overall sound removing the pipe facade would have.
              Viscount C400 3-manual
              8 channels + 2 reverb channels (w/ Lexicon MX200)
              Klipsch RSX-3 speakers and Klipsch Ultra 5.1 subwoofers

              Comment


                #42
                This is a very rough diagram of how the speakers were originally placed in the speaker chamber. The notes on the diagram generally show channel assignments. You may note that the Allen B-40 is not in this group. It was added a bit later. And the HR 100 was removed. Smaller SVS speakers were placed right at the shades opening later to take the Celeste sounds.

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                This is an even rougher sketch of how things are currently positioned in the very tight speaker chamber. Not shown are some trumpet and oboe pipes that are in front of the speakers. The shorter Hr-100 at the back was removed and both HC-12s were moved over to the left. They sit on the 11 cu. fit. cabinet containing the two 15 inch Dayton woofers. This is a ported cabinet with a 6 inch diameter port. I think it runs something like 30 inches in length. I've experimented with the port open and closed to see how the frequency curve is on this cabinet. Moving the HC-12 to the left just barely made enough room on the right for the B-40 to sit. The picture is not quite accurate on the placement of the two speakers in front of the Dayton cabinet. One sits on the far left of that cabinet with a gap of about 10 inches between the front panel and the HC-12's back. The other HC-12 sits on the right in front of that Dayton box. Then the B-40 sits with its rear on the Dayton box and its front on the right-hand HC-12.

                On the left side of the sketch are two HC-12s stacked. Only the top one is currently being used. It runs off the left channel of the Crown XLS1500 amp. The right channel of that amp powers the Allen B-40. I tried both HC-12s, but it changed the impedance. So I have at least temporarily taken one HC 12 out. The HC-12 can play lows well into the 30 Hz. range, and can also play the upper frequencies, overtones and partials of the pedal ranks. (Remember that the couplers are programed to play through the speakers of the original division. Thus, Swell to Great plays through the Swell speakers on top of the Dayton Cabinet. The 4 foot and Great to Pedal plays through the HC-12s sitting in front of the Dayton cabinet.

                I had a guy over at Do It Yourself Audio design a box to fit in a very odd shaped corner. It is rather triangular in shape. It is about 12 cu. ft. and contains an 18 inch Stereo Integrity HT-18. The port is actually built-into the construction of the cabinet. This is the box that produces most of the 16 Hz. stuff.

                So the left channel of the I Nuke 3000 powers the Dayton Cabinet. And the right channel powers the triangular box. I programed the DSP to enhance some of the sounds at the bottom of the graph (roughly 20 Hz.).

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                I hope these pics give you a better perspective on dimensions and environment. of the Sanctuary and how the speakers are positioned.

                We're about 15 miles off Interstate 95 if you want to come see it for yourself.

                BO
                Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                I'm a Methodist organist.
                I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                Became a Technology Specialist.
                Retired from Education after 32 years.

                Comment


                • rjsilva
                  rjsilva commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I’m near I-95 although north 400 miles...

                  I don’t know which speakers produce which pedal stops, but this is what I’d do:

                  I’d take one of the speakers which you feel is lacking in bass production and somehow, and crudely (just for testing), get it right at the opening of the chamber. Displace other speakers if you have to.

                  Bass can be finicky, especially in small spaces. I’m wondering if your problem is less about the small opening and more that the bass frequencies may be cancelling themselves out in the small chamber?

                  Keep in mind that my church has a somewhat bigger auditorium and is easily served by one Walker Quaker for <32hz and one B101 for >32hz. Easily, they are not being stressed. So for you to have a B-40, a dual 15” large sub, a custom 18” sub, and multiple HC-12’s, and still having bass issues (even through a small opening), it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Getting the bass cleanly out of the chamber may allow it to bloom better in the large auditorium. Worth testing, at least.

                  Just my thoughts.

                #43
                I appreciate your thoughts. I put the B-40 with its speaker and port pointed right at the opening for that very reason. The business end of that speaker can't be more than five feet from that opening.

                The strange thing is that the volume of the pedals is fine when the organ registration is playing softly. I tried to make sure the speakers were wired in phase. Maybe I missed one. I'm going to check that. When I go up there I'll look and try to figure out how I might put a bass box even closer to the opening.

                That pipe facade is in memory of some people - even has a plaque on it. I doubt it would be possible to remove it.

                Just had a couple of thoughts. The configuration file has a few places where there are some anti-clipping settings that were included. I wonder if one of those is turning the volume down for the pedals when the volume level goes up. That shouldn't be the issue since the speakers are at full volume all the time.

                Two, maybe the sound pressure level is better further away from the opening. Need to play some MIDI files with big ensemble and see how the pedals sound from various places around the Sanctuary. Maybe I'm in a depressed area sitting at the organ console.

                Bach On


                Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                I'm a Methodist organist.
                I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                Became a Technology Specialist.
                Retired from Education after 32 years.

                Comment


                • myorgan
                  myorgan commented
                  Editing a comment
                  When it comes to bass, sometimes less is more. I remember an account of exactly that phenomena related to subs earlier in this Forum. They weren't getting enough bass, but when the sub was turned down, the sound started producing.

                  Michael

                #44
                I service a Makin in a similar arrangement--old pipe facade on the back wall, speakers buried behind the pipes, and a plaster arch that separates the pipe/speaker chamber and the console from the nave. I have the volume turned up so far that the organist is nearly in pain on the bench, yet the volume in the nave is barely adequate to support a small congregation. The organist did not believe me on this point (when she attends services, she is always playing, never sitting in the pews) until I played for her while she walked around. As one would expect, it is the high frequencies that suffer most in moving away from the facade, but all frequencies including the lowest are attenuated.

                BO, in both your case and hers I judge the situation to be hopeless with the speakers where they are. I wanted to move her speakers out to the front nave walls on either side of the arch, but the church would not go for it. I image that you have a similar constraint, but you might ask the question. Some modest-sized full-range cabinets on either side of the arch opening together with a sub or two someplace in a corner of the nave would probably do far more than all the fooling around in the world with the current arrangement. I admire you for getting as much performance as you have out of what you have, but it is so far from ideal that any more progress is doubtful. If you were to hit upon a magic formula of speakers and location, it is likely to be so specific to certain frequencies and a certain listening position that almost no one in the room would appreciate it anyway.

                Comment


                  #45
                  Haman,

                  I notice you started off looking at using this driver:

                  https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-coil--295-514

                  If I'm reading it right, this one had dual voice coils and looks like it had a lower frequency response.

                  Two of them to go in twin B-40 boxes would have set you back some serious change.

                  Instead, you went with two of these:

                  https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...4-ohm--295-469

                  Still not cheap - single voice coil - and doesn't look like it can go quite as low (at least on paper).

                  I get that you are pleased with the results. And may I commend you on the selection you played.

                  Why did you change your choice?

                  Bach On


                  Make being happy a way of traveling, not just a destination.

                  Church organ - 2 manual 12 rank Estey Pipe Organ with 12 Artisan Digital Stops
                  Home organ - Allen R-230 organ (We also have 48 pipes in a facade)
                  We have a Yamaha 6' 8" Grand
                  Have used an older Korg T3 keyboard and MIDI for doing musical arrangements.
                  I'm a Methodist organist.
                  I taught high school chorus, elementary music and middle school music.
                  Became a Technology Specialist.
                  Retired from Education after 32 years.

                  Comment


                  • Hamman
                    Hamman commented
                    Editing a comment
                    They were months out, at the time, for having in stock. I did eventually get one...dual voice coil, just haven't installed it yet. I haven't played around with my 5300 in a long while as I have issues with the voice pallete on my great.....I think I have some cage card issues so I just lost interest and left my VPO in limbo as well. Plus its hotter than hell in that shop right now....so maybe this fall I'll regain some interest....be back on the forum and reading some of these posts is starting to strike my interests again!
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