HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?

[Philip the organist]

Hello everyone. Thank you for all your kind advice in advance. Here is the situation: I am currently volunteering for all services as the organist at the Old Paths Bible Baptist Church, a congregation numbering around 425 on Sundays. To my knowledge the church has had two organs in its 15 years. The first one was an Allen Theatre Compact from the 1960s which is a spinet-type model, donated by a small church. In addition to the internal speakers, it has a gyrophonic projector speaker which is basically similar to a Leslie but I never used it because it only went in Fast (tremolo mode) and I needed a classical sound. </p>

Around October of last year, a lady donated a Baldwin home organ, model 210a. We jumped at the offer because unlike the old Allen which had only 44-key manuals and 1 octave pedal, the Baldwin had 25-note ped and standard 61-key man. Unfortunately the Baldwin was built I'm guessing somewhere in the '60s and has no external speakers. It was also stored in a garage for a few years and during that time got full of leaves in the back. We took it over to the church and cleaned it off and it powered up and played fairly well. At the next midweek service I took the back off and turned up the amplifier for the stationary speaker as far as it would go because it had sounded rather underpowered before. That worked pretty well, but the sound got too loud to open the swell box all the way but still did not disperse well throughout the room. The [logarithmic] potentiometer in the swell pedal was a little scratchy so a man from the church went to Radio Shack and replaced it with a new [linear] pot. I am not an electronics wiz by any means but that different type translated for me as a big jump instead of a gradual crescendo as I opened the "swell box."
The organ worked well for a few months, but of late it has begun to show its age in a violent way. I apologize for the long explanation but now I will get to the problem. </p>

Whenever I play it makes these <span style="font-style: italic; font-weight: bold;">terrible</span> groaning, crackling, staticy noises. It sounds rather like someone is trying to kill a bear in an electric chair. Also sounds like AM static sometimes. The noise seems to center around certain chords, usually those with an Eb in them, but when I try to aggravate it on purpose to test it, I can't make it crackle. Then other times the same chords work fine and others cause trouble. Sometime in history someone replaced the transistor on the Eb tone generator but I don't know why it would cause trouble if it is newer than all the rest. It is impossible to avoid this noise but no one has complained yet because the 25-piece orchestra and 2 pianos help cover it up. I think it is only a matter of time before people start noticing though, especially those who sit near the organ and I really don't want to offend anyone. I asked my pastor who is also the orchestra conductor and he said to keep playing until it is impossible to go on. I think I am nearing that point. Now I have two questions for everyone. First, what should be done? Should I go back to the old Allen until a suitable replacement can be found, should I use the church's digital keyboard and pull an organ sound out of it (I don't exactly savour the thought of a one-manual, pedal-less organ with no stops and only two presets), or should I seek to have the Baldwin repaired? Baldwin is not in business so is it going to be expensive to fix it? Also, does anyone know the value of the Allen and the Baldwin together? The Allen was tuned up and repaired shortly before we replaced it and is still sitting against the wall so that might help. I was thinking if we tried to sell or trade in the two organs we might be able to get a decent amount of cash to put toward an Allen or a Rodgers. There is a local store (Roger's Pianos &amp; Clocks) which I called in the past and they said that they could sell us a used Allen digital appropriate for our size for US$1,200. I don't think our two current ones are worth <span style="font-style: italic;">anywhere near</span> that much but a little money is better than none. Finally, is there anyone out there in cyberspace who could tell me how to fix the ailing Baldwin if I can't get it replaced? If push comes to shove, for more volume I could run the headphone out into the sound system. However I think neither the congregation nor myself are inclined to hear 40-year old analog sound rained down from the ceiling at a paint-peeling level. No matter how loud I turn it up, it will never sound like a pipe organ. </p>

Any advice is appreciated, I'm just a high school freshman trying to do what I can for the worship of God. Thank you everyone- I hope this has been entertaining :)
</p>

[myorgan]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


First of all, welcome to the Forum![:)] I hope I can help lead you the right direction. It's really great to see young people interested in the instrument and continuing to use it in the church services. Many church services are in the process of trying to get rid of their organ in favor of praise bands and keyboards only. Speaking of keyboards, just have your music director try to play the pedal notes with his foot on the keyboard, and see how he does![H]</P>


Concerning your specific repair issues, I'd refer you to Forum member jbird604. He is full of WONDERFUL information. If you search for members and click on his name, you will be able to send him a private message--perhaps even an e-mail.</P>


In addition to Allen, you may wish to consider Rodgers, Johannus, or Phoenix instruments. As long as they're digital, they all tend to have acceptable sound. I found an Allen online for $2,000 and have used it with our local Symphony. eBay can be a great source from time to time, but there are others:</P>
<UL>
<LI>http://barton.theatreorgans.com/AdSe...5BType%5D=Sell</LI>
<LI>http://www.churchorgantrader.com/(need to register for a free logon)</LI>[/list]


I found my organ on the Barton Theatre Organ website listed above.</P>


I would think that with a church that size, you might be able to scare up a little more than $1,200 for a replacement instrument. On the other hand, considering you have a band, 2 pianos, andyour organ has internal speakers, it sounds like the organ isn't in a position of musical leadership as it is in many churches.</P>


I'm not sure if this helps you at all, but I hope at least I've been able to point you in a proper direction.</P>


Michael</P>


P.S. Some members have been having luck on Craig's List too. However, it's difficult to search Craig's list for several locations at once.</P>

[davidecasteel]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Have you examined the speakers? Damaged speaker cones can make for some pretty ratty sounds. Those speakers are old, and running the amplifier at a high setting is putting a serious strain on them. Specifically check to see if the surrounds for the cones are intact and flexible. Also insure that the voice coil is not rubbing in the magnet gap. If there are problems there, replacement speaker units are not horribly expensive and you may find someone in your church who is able to make the repairs.</P>


Does the nature of the sound improve if you back off on the amplification? If so, you may be overdriving the amplifier and that can make for some very harsh sounds, also. Unless jbird has suggestions on more powerful amplifiers for that organ, you may have to live with less volume.</P>


Those are the only things that immediately suggest themselves to me. Now let's hear from the real experts.</P>


David</P>

[jbird604]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



OK. Since I've been "summoned" I'd best weigh in. As always I'm happy to share my opinion and offer what technical advice I can in this context.</P>


I'll add my commendation to what Michael has said. It iswonderfulto hear of a church where the organ is in regular use and being played by a young player so obviouisly dedicated. God's best blessings upon you and your musical ministry! Never give up!</P>


My first thought is that you might be better off going back to the Allen, even though it's a spinet. That little Allen doesn't have much in the way of resources, being a simple unit flute organ, but if it was recently repaired and tuned it may actually be a better musical instrument than the Baldwin, particularly since the organ doesn't play a true leading role in your church's service.</P>


You are correct in not wishing to use the tremolo speaker on the Allen with congregational singing. However, not using that speaker limits the organ sound to the internal speakers. You can get around this by disconnecting the MOTOR inside the tremolo speaker. Carefully look inside there (with the organ turned off) and you will probably see an in-line fuse holder on the wire leading to the motor. Open the holder and remove the fuse and then you can switch on this external speaker cabinetusing the tremulant or vibrato tab, but you won't get any tremolo.</P>


I suggest returning to the Allen partly because an Allen organ of any age can realistically be kept going. They were built to last a very long time and the company still supports them. Baldwin, as you know, is out of business, though there is a company (MusicElectronics in Springdale Arkansas) that supports these organs. However, the Baldwin is a much more complicated and trouble-prone organ and keeping it going may prove expensive.</P>


ABaldwin 210 has a lot of design problems, in particular the awful elastomer key contacts. Also, if it has been repaired by a non-professional in the past there's no telling what might be wrong with the generator causing this raucus noise you describe.</P>


The replacement of the expression pedal pot may be the least of your worries. Actually, a linear pot may work just fine. Perhaps the guy didn't know how to calibrate the pot so that it's rotation will correctly coincide with the expression pedal movement. To do this correctly, you must set the pot so that when the expression pedal begins to move the volume will just begin to increase. This gives you the maximum expression range. Then you set the overall volume using the rotary/stationary/pedal pots on the amp chassis.</P>


So, I'd suggest that you return to the Allen rather than spend money on the Baldwin. But, as Michael mentions, there are often very good used organs available at bargain prices. You can probably find a 25-year-old Allen or Rodgers organ that will be a quantum leap ahead of either organ you now have. $1200 is setting your sights a little low, but you certainly ought to find something for just a few thousand dollars that will be fantastic for your church.</P>


You get what you pay for, even in used stuff, so consider buying from a qualified technician or a dealer who will properly install the organ and stand behind it. I know this will cost more than buying on ebay and getting an organ"as-is-where-is" but unless you are willing to leave the installation and voicing in the hands of the same amateurs who fixed on the Baldwin, I'd go with a professional.</P>


Alternatively, you might find an organ technician in your area who would work with you in selecting a used organ from ebay or craigslist or wherever, then do the installation and voicing and any needed repairs for a reasonable fee. Or, a friendly local dealer might be willing to pass along to your church the next decent Rodgers or Allen analog that he takes in trade, and his technicians could install and set it up for you.</P>


Purchasing a used one without any technical advice or services could be risky, as there could be problems that are not obvious until you try to use it. Or even lightning damage or other catastrophic problems that might render it almost useless. Not trying to scare you, but there are things to consider when making a purchase of this nature.</P>


Good luck. Let us know what happens.</P>


John</P>
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[Philip the organist]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Thanks so much everyone. I'll take the back off the organ on Sunday and check the speakers, amp, etc. like Casteel said to. I will speak with church leadership on Sunday about the problem and ask for advice from the church's perspective. Thanks jbird for all your tech advice. I just might go back to the Allen before the organ is replaced. I'll keep you posted.
</p>

[jbird604]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


Look just above your last post and see what"jbird604" has to say(that's me). My advice still stands. As to converting the Baldwin to a MIDI console, well, it's do-able. And if you are good at working with computers you could indeed set up Hauptwerk or Miditzer or j-Organ or some other virtual organ and have a much much much better organ than that old Baldwin ever was.</P>


MIDI-fying an old console is not easy, but it's not rocket science either. There are lots of resources on the internet for advising you on this. Perhaps someone elseon this forum who has done it recentltywill chime in with more advice. I've used several different types of MIDI retrofit kits over the years with good results. I've never done a Baldwin,but I thinkyou would have to change out one of the contact rods to do it, since the "elastomer" rod will not work well with MIDI. Otherwise, it might be fairly simple.</P>


And you'd have an organ sound (especially with Hauptwerk) that would rival the latest high-end digitals from the premium builders.</P>


John</P>
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[Philip the organist]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?

Sorry jbird-I wrote that last night but it didn't post until this morning. Wish I had your mind when it came to the electronic aspects of my instruments!

[jbird604]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


We're on the same page now. Let us know what happens.</P>


John</P>

[james]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


Welcome to the Organ Forum. It is just wonderful to see a young man interested in the organ as well as given a chance to play in church at your age. I had a church to get rid of me when I was in high school because I expessed too much of an interest in playing for the church some. My Dad made mentioned that thedamn church (mostly the preacher)could care less who or how the organ is playedeven ifthose old gals took a #3 washtub and beat on it with their fist or a big stick for a racketas long as many $$$$$$ came in the plate when it was passed. The fact was that I was only a high school student, and could not tithe.</P>


With a church that large there shouldn't be a great problem to fix something for you to play. However, a bit of advice all of the churches I played in could always find an excuse to put off having an organ fixed or a piano tuned. However, they could always find a way to send money to Mexico of Africa yet for the missionaries. And now days churches can yet through the organ in a dumpster or give one away for the taking since they are going to happy clappy music. The Baldwin 48C that I have was from a church who didn't want it anymore. I just had to have a few minor repair done to it as well as give it a good home. Baldwin was never one of my favorite organs, but for church they can do a nice job. I do enjoy this one somewhat with the 32 pedals. I, too, hate those modern keyboards with their so called "organ" button to press.You might try advertising somewhere that your church is in need of a good organ, and that you are a young man who plays regularly. I did a advertisement on Craiglist.com for the most recent organ I acquired. As mentioned there are other sources too.[I] </P>


I couldn't help but be amused at your post comparing the organ to a bear about to die in the electric chair. [:D] I had some similiar experieces with an old Baldwin Model 5 which was Baldwin's first electronic organs on the market. Also, this organ had a very low serial number. The one I played on had some awful sounds on certain chords, and after an offertory the minister said the it was the organ's fault, and not James' fault that the organ sounded like "a frog doing its last croaking." they sure can bethe[6], and hell can roar in more ways than one to disrupt a great church service. These old organs can be a headache, and you have been given some wonderful advice on here. I hope you follow their leadings regarding your situation. Do keep us posted.[:)]</P>


The spinet Allen does have my interest. I find it interesting that I read somewhere about the Silvertone Organs sold by Sears many years back were made by Allen. jbird mentioned this was a unit flute organ, and I wonder about the stops. Do they go up to the upper pitches? A stop list would be nice. With all those instruments used in the church where you play I would hope at least you can be heard. Sometimes it takes those upper pitches to cut through without using the expression pedal too widely open.</P>


My very BEST to you!!!![:)]</P>
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James</P>
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[Philip the organist]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



[:P]James,
Thanks for your humour and good advice. about the Allen- I poked around online for tech info and basically as far as I know those old Allens had a tone generator which would put out a square? wave and that was the flute generator. Their old church organs also had a Diapason generator but our Allen is a theatre model so it only has the flute generator. So it would generate this flute sound at whatever pitches it was needed at and then also use some of the overtones to make strings, reeds, principals etc kind of like the Hammond drawbars but you can't independently control the pitches, you only have certain stops. You can imagine the poor sound. Anyway, a stoplist:</p>

PEDAL: Major Bass 16', Diapason 16', Pedal coupler 8'-makes octave pitch play off the MB and Diap. too</p>

ACCOMPANIMENT:Flutes available at 8' 4' 2 2/3' 2' 1' and a String Diapason which is actually all the flute stops thrown together. Wood Block, Tom-Tom, Sleigh Bells, Snare Drum, Chrysoglott and maybe a few other traps.</p>

SOLO: Flutes at 16' 8' 5 1/3' 4' 2 2/3' 2' 1', Principal 8', Gamba 8', Trumpet 8', Oboe 8', Clarinet 8'. Marimba, Glockenspiel, Carillon, various other traps. (I'm writing this all from memory; I haven't played the organ since November.</p>

Accesories: Tremolo, Vibrato (Activates rotary speaker), Pres. Proj. (whatever that is), Flutes become Tibias.
</p>

Hope this helps, let me know if you want the Baldwin specs.</p>

Phil

</p>

[james]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


Thanks for your post. I can see how the non flute tones were formatted from the all flute type tone generator. No, I don't need a stop list of the Baldwin 210 since I have played on that series of organs at the tech's shop where I used to work some. However, many thanks for the offer.[:)] I even remember them new in the dealer's store. They have a big sound, and the pedals are so rich deep as well as powerful. Also, they don't break back on the lowest octave as most organs do in the electronicfield. My Baldwin Church Organ, the 48C, does not break back either in the lowest octave, and it is a nice organ for church or a big home organ. Baldwin is not one of my favorites, but I do care more for their organs which were designed for church only, and the one I have is nice. I have a Baldwin spinet which has had it better days, and all it will soon be is just a good parts organ for others to use. As these organs get a good number of years on them, the basic tonal source can be heard in all of the stops individually. On the Baldwin spinet the square wave produces a basic reed tone such as aclarinet, and all of the stops sound very "clarinety." When put together they are stronger and the whole tone takes on a brassy sound like trombones, baritones, etc. I remember back when these organs were new a lot of people said Baldwin was a brassy sounding organ which the older ones are for sure. Then the strings are nothing but a buzzy sound to me. I will say the reed solo stops are good sounding as well as realistic.</P>
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This Baldwin 48C that I have does sound better than the older models. The organ tech I worked with swore that this series of organs were nothing but a Thomas under the hood. He knows more about these matters than I do, but Thomas organs used the square tonal source for their organs too. I know my Thomas spinet's flutes are very "clarinety" and some of the combinations remind me of the Baldwin. My 48C strings are muchbetter toned and are not as harsh or buzzy. It is very nice for playing church music, and has a celesta and chimes preset which are very nice.</P>


It seems if memory serves me correctly by the time the 210 series Baldwin came out all of the flute stops were labeled Flutes and had many pitches. I remember the ads regarding Baldwin's all new sounding flutes which were not stopped but more clear such as one hears on a Lowrey or somewhat like Hammond.</P>


I wish you the best, and do continue to post info as well as share what happens at the church and your playing the organ there. I played the organ in church when I was in high school, but it was a Hammond C3 which is nothing more than a B3 just with a church cabinet on it. Also, this was before Leslie speakers were used with a Hammond. Our speakers were installed permanently in the top of the choir loft with a grille covering for the one out front. This organ was only about 5 years old when I started playing on it, and this church did keep it in top shape. To be honest the church should have had something else beside a Hammond because it was out of place for our type of worship. However, Hammond was the big ONE back in those days. I heard they out sold all the rest combined at that time.</P>


James</P>

[Philip the organist]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Hello everyone. Here is the update on where my church organ stands. It was acting terrible today during service and exhibited more of its problems. So I took the back off after service like Casteel said to and I got my dad who is an electrical engineer to look too. Unfortunately as is often the case when I try to troubleshoot that accursed instrument, no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get any crackling or noise even from the same chords that were causing trouble during the service. We didn't find that the speakers were damaged and the tone didn't improve after backing down on the power. The contacts on the amp controls were<span style="font-style: italic;"> filthy</span> but once they were turned to a crackle-free spot, it sounded fine. I don't know what to do now because the tone generators or related circuitry is at fault and not some easy-to-fix thing like a speaker or a knob. Everything is so complex in there that I can't even trace the signal path. So I guess if it doesn't stay noise-free, I will ask the pastor about a replacement and go back to the Allen for the time being. I found the motor fuse in its rotary speaker and I can take it out really easily. Thanks again everyone, will keep you posted.</p>

Philip</p>

[jbird604]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


Yep. Go back to the Allen. I'm actually quite a Baldwin fan myself, having played for several years on a big old C-601, enjoyed it very much. Alsoreally likethe last of their analogs, such as the 636 and 645, and now own a D422, which was theonly digital series they made in the USA before they started buying**Italian organs (**no adjective will be inserted here, but understood) and slapping the Baldwin sticker on them.</P>


But an analogAllen, even that little spinet, is truly "analogous" to a little pipe organ. Each oscillator functions as if it were a pipe. Sure there are only 75 or so of them, not much of a pipe organ, if they were pipes, but as you know they unify them to produce a semblance of other tonalities.</P>


Anyway, that's my opinion. Not to put the Baldwin down, but it's just rather complicated and "Rube Goldberg-ish" compared to the Allen, and there are just so many things that can be wrong with one.</P>


What you need to find is a decent Rodgers or Allen or genuine church-model Baldwin. Even when 35 or 40 years old a well-made full-size classical church organ should still be a good musical instrument. </P>


At my little church we are now using the seventh (!) organ since I started playing there in 1993 on a Wurlitzer spinet. Every time I heard about something betterbecoming available, I'd arrange to trade up, and now we have a pretty wonderful Rodgers 3 manual. And it was free for the taking, though we had to have it moved (and I did the installation, since that's my line of work). Here's a photo:</P>


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2307/...b2172859_b.jpg</P>


I know you can find something better in time. Good luck. And blessings.</P>


John</P>
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[Philip the organist]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Thank you yet again John! Totally love your Rodgers. Do you know approximately how much I should expect to get for the two organs that are currently at church, and is it better to trade with a reputable dealer or sell online or on eBay? Also I don't mean to start yet another Allen/Rodgers debate, but which do you think is better for use with the fundamentalist hymns and with an orchestra? (Here in Rochester there are an Allen dealer, a Rodgers dealer, and a Lowery/Hammond dealer. Each store only sells one brand I believe.) Also is it going to be important to get a digital or will ie an analog Allen from 1970, one year before digital be just as good? The first time I played a Rodgers analog from around 1990, I was sure it was digital and I would love to have it at church. One last option: I have a 1979 Kimball Stardust K600 theatre-style at home (Full-size, just 25-note pedalboard). It has plenty of power and an external cab. Should I bring that over to church until we find a replacement or just go with the Allen? I use it to practice on constantly but the church probably needs it more than I do.</p>

Thank you again.</p>

Psa 37:4-5 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.Commit thy way unto the LORD;trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

</p>

[myorgan]

Re: HELP-MY CHURCH ORGAN IS ABOUT TO DIE. REPAIR OR REPLACE?



Philip,</P>


Hope you don't mind me responding to your question to John about Rodgers &amp; Allen.</P>


You'll probably want to have a digital organ if you get either one. If your purchase is to carry the church forward, I doubt the old Allens will cut it. Except for the largest models, they did not have mixtures or intra-manual couplers at all (I refer to the TC-3S that I'm familiar with).</P>


However, older Rodgers analog instruments sound excellent. I played a 1974 Cambridge for 7 years at church, and it sounded great and performed most of the literature I requested of it. I remember the first time I heard it, I went up and asked the organist if it were an Allen digital. Imagine my surprise.</P>


Just be aware that an analog instrument will be quite heavy compared to its digital cousin. If you need to hear recordings of an analog Rodgers, let me know. I can direct you to a web page with some recordings.</P>


Hope this helps.</P>


Michael</P>