Allen MDS-5 MIDI

[SDS93]

Hi again.

Okay I have another (maybe a little stupid by now, this day in age) question:
Is it common for MIDI capabilities on an older (1990s) Allen MDS organ to just not function? And would it be a simple fix, if so?

I wanted to expand the tonal resources of the Allen MDS-5's organ. I have the free St. Anne's version of Hauptwerk installed on my W!ndow's 10 desktop computer. It worked just fine with a cheap i61 MIDIplus keyboard I got online a while ago. I wanted to upgrade to have the software work with my practice organ back at my parent's house. (I still go over there to practice).

I am connecting the midi cable (Mio) into the OUT socket of the MIDI connection from the Allen organ's MIDI hook-ups. The other end of the 5-pin connection is a USB, which I then plug into my desktop computer. I can get no sound, nor MIDI events to process. Hauptwerk worked well with the MIDIPlus keyboard, so I'm not 100% sure what's going on. Any suggestions or possible answers?

P.S. I DID change the Hauptwerk settings to be compatible with an Allen organ console when it prompted me with a list of what instrument / keyboard(s) I would be using the software with.
There seems to be a TON of information on the web and even just on this forum alone about similar things. I am asking because what I have seen online so far isn't working for me as of yet.

Thanks!
--Stephen

[m&m's]

First things first. There are free programs available, such as MIDI-Ox, which can tell if your computer is actually receiving MIDI messages from the Allen. If you find that you are in fact receiving MIDI information, then use Hauptwerk's auto-detect settings on each keyboard to take advantage of those messages. Bear in mind that you may need to use the MIDI-On stoptabs on the Allen to receive MIDI messages on you computer.

[Organkeys Jones]

You definitely need to use the MIDI stops for the keyboards or pedals to send note-on & note-off messages from the organ's MIDI out to another device.

[samibe]

The MDS-5 at my church has a MIDI tab for each division. I almost always forget them at some point and am just baffled that the midi isn't working. I've wanted to do something similar with the organ at church, but my computer has enough latency that it sounds a bit odd to play any VPO stops with the Allen stops. (I also don't trust that my computer won't do something unexpected in the middle of a song since it isn't a dedicated VPO computer.)

[AllenAnalog]

Perhaps I missed the memo on this and am technically behind the times. I don't understand how you plug a 5-pin MIDI connector into one device and then plug the other end of that same cable into a USB port on a computer. I thought the MIDI signal drove an optical emitter (for electrical isolation) on the receiving end, not the USB receiver circuitry in a PC. Seems like we are connecting two electrically incompatible devices with this cable.

[samibe]

The Mio is a MIDI to USB cable. I have one. It works great. It only has one set of MIDI in/out plugs. I assume that the OP misstated the connections.

[AllenAnalog]

OK, I am behind the times since I did not recognize the Mio name and what that implied as far as signal translation. I see the MIDI connectors are clearly marked IN and OUT in the photo on the Sweetwater site. So you just need to match that properly to the Allen MIDI ports.

[m&m's]

Organkey Jones: "You definitely need to use the MIDI stops for the keyboards or pedals to send note-on & note-off messages from the organ's MIDI out to another device."

Some Allen organs have TWO MIDI outputs, one that is always on and another one that is on only when a MIDI tab is down. My former MDS 317 had both. I don't know if this organ does, which is why I posted what I did.

[Organkeys Jones]

m&m's - you are right! I just checked my Allen C-19c and MIDI Out 1 is labeled "Seq" for sequencer. It would always be on. I drive my external modules with MIDI Out 2, controlled by the MIDI stop tabs. There is no reason you couldn't run a module or computer from the "Seq" MIDI port.

[SDS93]

Thanks for the info on the free softwares that could check for midi signals, m&m's. I did not know those were out there.
Also, I have failed to state that I DID indeed put down the MIDI to swell/great/pedal stop tabs down. I was rather exhausted last night and sometimes I have trouble remembering everything that I do. But yes, those were all depressed at all times.

I also will maybe try a different MIDI-to-USB cable (I couldn't remember what they were called last night, my apologies for any latent miscommunication; thanks samibe).
I have read some rather unpleasant reviews on the Mio MIDI to USB cable; and I am suspicious that could be an issue. The little MIDI controller keyboard that I bought a while back used it's own USB to connect with the USB port on my computer tower (with no 5-pin connection used anywhere at all).

Thank you all for your responses / help! I am grateful for your time.

--Stephen

[SDS93]

Well, I tried Midi Ox. I don't really know what I'm doing. Can't get anything to record onto the screen to let me know midi is working on neither the cheap keyboard, nor the organ. I read up on how to use it, and I thought I did everything right, but I am missing something. I can still, however, get the little cheap keyboard to work with Hauptwerk just fine.

It is on the Allen organ, however, that when I want to auto-detect the Great manual on Hauptwerk, for example, nothing is registered and the "Done" box isn't lit up or able to be clicked or anything of the sort after playing the key(s) it asks. That's the problem in a nut shell, I guess. Hauptwerk can't auto-detect the Allen organ. The Device manager of my computer did in fact recognize the Mio MIDI-to-USB cable and said it was working properly. So, I'm guessing that by now my MIDI hook-up on my Allen organ is shot. That's the ONLY thing I can think of by now that would be wrong because I don't think this should be this complicated. :-P

I'll look into this further...
Thanks!

--Stephen

[SDS93]

UPDATE: I have solved the problem. What I was doing wrong was I plugged the OUT pin into the OUT socket. Apparently, it is the IN connection that goes in the OUT socket. Silly me. Everything works great! Although I never would have thought of doing it that way. (I'm not MIDI fluent).

Organ sounds phenomenal with the voices from the Allen's HR-100 speakers on one end of the room playing the Allen sounds and the Hauptwerk computer's speakers playing the Hauptwerk sounds on the other end of the room. It is an amazing thing to have both going for surround sound. It also adds the illusion that the whole organ has reverb, which is another thing I inquired about a while back. Thank you all for your help. I am enjoying my expanded organ very much!

--Stephen

[John Vanderlee]

One thing to remember when plugging things together is the signal flow of the system. In other words determine what is the source and where it needs to go. I have seen this with sound systems, for example, where people plugged a CD player OUT into a preamp OUT, and wondered what was wrong.
I suppose it is a logical mistake.

[jbird604]

Glad you got it going. I'd love to know the details of the computer you use for Hauptwerk, as well as what your sample set is.

[SDS93]

Yes! I'll bet you are fully correct! I need to purchase a good pair of headphones! But at the same time...I love hearing the organ sound through the house and shake the pictures on the wall! Lol! Very good point, though! I've often heard that VPOs are great for headphone use, especially when a decent speaker system is financially out of reach or too complex for someone like me who barely understands how to connect a simple pair of speakers into a computer in the first place.

[jbird604]

Yes, if you haven't heard a VPO through headphones, you don't know what you're missing! But my headphones are not expensive at all. In fact, they cost under $20 -- some Sony's from Target, probably intended for kids to use with MP3 players or something. But they do a much better job than my speakers at coupling the VPO to my eardrums, both in frequency response and in imaging. Wearing phones, you feel like you are standing right in the church where the samples were recorded with the organ tones rolling around and reflecting off the walls and ceiling.

But you may find that your MDS-5 isn't pleasing in headphones, same as I wasn't fond of the sound of my Renaissance model in headphones, despite how good it sounded in speakers. Just didn't seem right to have that sound coupled directly to my ears when it needed to be out in the room somewhere!

[myorgan]

So John, unless I miss my guess, you're talking about the "ambiance" of the organ being sampled along with the actual direct sound. Where Allen boasted they sampled actual organ pipes in an anechoic chamber, rather than sampling them along with the "ambiance" of the organ's location. That process then gives them an uphill climb when adding the "ambiance" after-the-fact and making it convincingly realistic.

Michael

[jbird604]

That's exactly right, Michael. Allen always sampled pipes in anechoic chambers so as to capture the actual output of the pipes themselves, rather than the coloration produced by the environment. For that reason, the Allen sample data is much more "pure" and a far better measure of precisely what a given pipe produces, in terms of harmonics and such.

That is probably why an Allen organ can so accurately reproduce the full tonal impact of a real pipe organ when installed in a good acoustic setting. But it is also probably the reason an Allen simply doesn't sound right in headphones. The sound is intentionally bereft of any "ambiance" or environment, and we all know that "the room is the most important stop on an organ." Thus the tone is missing something vital when coupled directly to your ears via headphones.

OTOH, sample sets for VPOs are created by placing microphones some distance from the pipe chests -- each sampler has his/her own philosophy of where to place the mic's. These recordings thus capture far more than just the output of the pipe. The coloration caused by the room, the sustain and reflections, even a sense of the size of the room and the placement of the pipe chest within the room -- all these are imbedded in the samples. So when you use headphones to hear these recordings played back, it's the well-known "stereo" effect -- your head is "transported" to the spot in that room where the microphones were set up for the recording. It's a startling effect and accounts for the rave reviews of VPOs by so many people.

In reality, as I've been preaching off and on, the VPO is not actually "more accurate" or "more realistic" in recreating the original organ's sound. It's just doing something entirely different -- tricking your brain into hearing exactly what you'd hear if you were physically standing in front of that organ. This works beautifully through headphones. AND it works well enough when there are properly designed speakers near your organ bench, directing the sound more or less toward you and into your ears.

What I'm finding here at my house is that VPO sound is NOT particularly great when the speakers are located as they would be in a regular organ installation -- pointed away from the bench, directed at the ceiling or a wall behind them, or set up across the room.

And that is why there is a place for both types of organ and always will be, I suppose. Each has its own pros and cons. I may well wind up using VPO sound when I'm practicing with headphones, and resorting to my old Content module when I want to play out loud!

[SDS93]

Well said, John! Thanks!