A few prospective organs- Opinions?

[Vercus]

An organ dealer has a Baldwin 645 with an H5 speaker cabinet for $1,000. Sounds like they just want to move it on out, hence the price. He says it's fully functional, but warned me about finding someone familiar with the organ who has a service manual for it. Apparently these aren't easy to figure out. What are your guys thoughts on this organ? I can't find much info, and haven't found a single video to be able to hear it.

The dealer has many other organs, including a Rodgers 840, which I'd really love to buy, but it's just too big to fit through the door. Story of my life. It comes with 5 or 6 speakers and a big 2x15 subwoofer. They want $5,000 which seemed a bit high to me for an analog, though it is a nice full size 3 manual, and does have MIDI.

They also have a few MOS organs, a 603-D, 903 (beautiful looking, but no doubt too big) and an ADC-220 (Princess pedals). I'm told they also just got in a few MDS organs. Last but not least is an Allen C6, which I'm afraid may be out of my budget. Of them all, the one I'm most drawn to is the Rodgers, I just wish it was about 2 inches smaller. My only chance would be to take the door jambs off and put the organ on it's side. The problem is it's an old farm house, so the walls and jambs are 12" thick, so I think it would interfere with making the turn. The Baldwin would fit standing up, but just.

MOS organs scare me because (aside from the lousy sound) I have been hearing that support is really dwindling for them. It seems the boards are failing and replacements haven't been made for a long time. My church had a 632-D from 1978 up until about 10 or so years ago when they replaced it with the Elite that I now play. Even at that time Allen warned us that it was going to be difficult to keep it running. We had numerous failures that resulted in some truly terrible sounds being made at random, and some rather goofy combination action behavior.

So that leaves me with the Baldwin. I'm a bit concerned that it may have the same concern as the Allen MOS organs, only more so due to the lack of understanding and support. I don't want to be stuck with a huge boat anchor if it does go belly up.

This whole thing is getting so complicated it's making my head hurt. I found posts on here dating back to 2007 about looking for an organ. I think 13 years is long enough. It's time to get an instrument and I'm really tired of a stupid door holding things up.

Are there any Rodgers (or Allen) analogs you'd recommend that would fit through a 33 1/2" door?

[jbird604]

A few personal reactions... You seem to have a number of choices, so let's hope now is the time and your long search will finally be over!

(1) Baldwin 645 -- a little risky. I have seen a few of these and when working they sound very good, about as good as analog can be. But of course Baldwin is gone as a company, and support is slim. Potential problems with all the crimped connectors and solder joints. We've seen many of these retired due to an avalanche of troubles that just didn't seem to stop once they started. But we have others that we service that are still going strong and show little sign of trouble.

(2) Rodgers 840 -- yes, a nice sounding and very large old analog. In a huge church, this type of sound is quite good, but Rodgers analogs of this size really do need the sweetening effect of a big room. And it is seriously BIG, so seems nearly impossible to get into your house

(3) MOS Allens of all kinds are still, IMHO, the most reliable of all organs out there. Literally thousands and thousands of them were built over an 11-year period, parts are abundant, often on ebay for very low cost. A simple digital system that was built like a tank. Downside is that the sound is not terribly exciting, but more pleasant if the speakers are not right in your ears. Sometimes offered for free. The low end of the line were stripped down models without capture, but the higher you go, the more features and the better the sound.

(4) The ADC 220 has a lot going for it, if you can take the princess pedals. Some folks say they have no problem with the very slightly narrowed pedals, but for others it is a deal breaker. But the ADC era was a great time for Allen. ADC models overcame many of the limitations of MOS -- couplers work more like real couplers, you get mixtures, you get real celestes on every model, great chimes, more voicing flexibility. A highly successful series of organs, still prized by many members of this forum. The 220 should be very durable, though some of them are now needing the cage power supply changed out.

(5) MDS Allens -- I'm puzzled that you have heard bad things about MDS models. The MDS era is considered by Allen to be their most successful decade in terms of both sales and tonal progress. Very early MDS installations were criticized for being "too pipelike" -- stressing the imperfections of pipe winding with excess amounts of articulation, but Allen soon corrected this, and most MDS installs are still praised for their beauty of tone. AFAIK, there is no shortage of parts for them, and no more inherent problems than in ADC or any other series. MDS models are all decked out with full MIDI, and they all have nice feature sets, much like ADC but with certain incremental improvements. They also are all equipped with "wind" controls -- the prized "TG-10" effects in the later model ADC organs were incorporated into the MDS system, built right into the generator boards of most models.

(6) Your church's Elite -- I'm surprised to hear that you've had problems with it. Remember that the technology in your Elite is not MDS, but Renaissance, and the Elite models simply used more boards and more audio channels than standard Renaissance organs. You should not be having trouble with it, and if you are, Allen ought to be on top of it. Isn't it still under warranty? I'd call up the factory and have a heart to heart with somebody! That organ ought to sound like a dream and should last for 50 years.

Bottom line -- the ADC 220 will fit through your door and is probably the best compromise of all the models listed, unless there happens to be an MDS in your price range, then I'd go with that for sure. There are several MDS models, the smallest ones with princess pedals, the step above them with full AGO, and all have very nice feature sets. But many dealers are still getting top dollar for these, so they may be out of your budget.

And you could take a chance on the Baldwin. As long as it's actually working perfectly, it can be very satisfying. It comes with a compact stack of external speaker cabinets that you can probably accommodate, and if it fits through your door in the upright position, that's a plus. I sure wouldn't turn it on its side though, given the known troubles with solder joints in the big flat motherboards. These joints would be stressed if the console got turned on its end.

[myorgan]

Vercus,

Is there a reason you're futzing with a dealer? If you want to have an organ with a warranty of sorts, and to make sure everything works, then a dealer is a good choice. However, I've never had good luck with any dealers.

I've had better luck with CL or *Bay and purchasing an organ that may or may not be in perfect condition. I negotiate with the owner to make sure it's a price I'm willing to pay, and I can also complete whatever repairs may be necessary. Some are expensive (i.e. an amplifier re-build), while others can be simple (i.e. exercising pots on an ADC board). Of course, I need to go pick the organ up myself (transportation, trailer rental, mileage, labor, etc.), but I've generally found it to be MUCH less than purchasing something from a dealer.

Rather than asking about specific organs from a dealer, perhaps you could tell us what you're looking for in an organ, and we may be able to help you find one.

Michael

[toodles]

The Rodgers 840 console has a "knee" dimension of just under 29 inches--this is measured as the diagonal from the crotch where the key desk bottom meets the tall side panel to the top corner. If your door placement has wide clear space on one side or the other of about 5 feet (maybe even a bit less), you can put the organ on its side and rotate it through the door opening and pass it through. If your dealer is including moving, see if he can approach it this way. I think I know who your dealer is, based on his used organ offerings, and he's had the Baldwin and Rodgers 840 for quite a while, so he might be ready to deal.

The straight depth of my 840 without pedals and lid is 34-5/8 inches, a bit less than the specification sheet indicates. 840 brochure is here: http://vintageorgans.com/rodgers840/840.pdf

Any of the analog organs will greatly benefit with a good digital reverb unit, which is easy to add to any Rodgers analog organ.

All of the Rodgers 1980's 2-manual stop tab organs are less than 30 inches deep: Models 602, 625, 645, 650, 650B, 645, 650, 705, 705B, 740, 740B, 755, and 770. The 770 is the largest and best of these. Allen smaller ADC models (up to model ADC-3160) and smaller MDS models (up to MDS-40) use a console that is 32 inches deep.

[Vercus]

Hello Jbird,
Just to clarify. I haven't heard bad things about the MDS organs. I actually don't really know much about them.

Our Elite organ has been nearly faultless. The only issue we had was some bad mute relays on the amps that Allen took care of. It was the MOS organ before it that gave us such trouble. Sorry, I realized my wording was confusing. It was late and I was tired.

As far as why I was looking to a dealer, it's because I've had trouble finding classical organs private party. It seems all I can find are home spinets. I didn't know where else to go.

My budget is about $7,500 or under. Obviously the less the better! I'm looking for something to practice hymns and simpler classical music on (think J.S. Bach O Mensch Bewein, etc). I would like something that is enjoyable to play though too. I want an organ that I can just sit down and play for fun, so I'm drawn to organs with character and personality. That's what drew me to the Rodgers. The analogs just seem to have an endearing quality that the early MOS organs just don't have.

Speaking of MOS, I'm guessing that 603-D wouldn't fit either, because it's a D console?

I checked ebay and found a couple possibilities, but they're both far away.

1. An ADC-3100DKC for $4,500 with 4 HC-12s. The seller says he'd deliver up to 500 miles, but this is twice that.
2. ADC-220 for $1,000 with 2 speakers. Again, just too far away.

At least it gives me an idea of what to expect price wise.

[smp]

Hi

I have actually come into possession of an Allen MDS-15 which I'm hoping to sell to raise some funds for other projects- perfect working order, beautiful condition, Allen MIDI ensemble drawer, console controller drawer (later model), card reader with all original cards, 2 manual and pedal AGO with full capture system and multiple memory levels, internal speakers but also comes with 4 little (finished) speakers.

[myorgan]

Vercus,

Are you in Eastern or Western PA? I actually know of an Allen MOS available for free, but haven't suggested it because it probably wouldn't fit your requirements, and it's too far away. However, I did find a couple of organs possibly near you-depending on which end of PA you live.

Michael

[Leisesturm]

For seven thousand samolien I could slap together one h-e-double hockey sticks of a VPO that would rip the lungs out of, and hide the carcass of anything Rodgers or Allen have that is affordable used. You guys really need to talk amongst yourselves and figure out how to crowd-fund my Organwerks Unlimited venture. Is 'Encore Instruments' still extant? No offense, but analog and early digital instruments simply cannot compete with Hauptwerk. It's criminal that dealers are asking four figures for those legacy dinosaurs. Other posters are correct. Instruments like that should be given away for the tax write-off. They are. Keep your powder dry and the right instrument will come along.

3 Man American Digitals are a challenge to move, but not impossible. I'm not hearing any talk of removing doors or organ tops. I should have. Measure, measure, measure and get one of your magician friends to Mambo the console over and around the threshold. They won't be careful not to scratch the finish, that is your responsibility! 3 manuals is the minimum that is worth the hassle IMO. Hard to find, absolutely, but European 3 manual instruments (Eminent, Viscount, Saville) will fit through American doorways without ballroom dance moves. I have a hard time imagining the 2man instrument that would not fit through a standard doorway.

None of the listed instruments are going to sound good on their own. External reverb (and lots of it) is a must for an instrument that "I would like something that is enjoyable to play though too". Few of us hear these instruments in our own homes prior to buying them. Even the showroom is a better acoustic space for evaluating an instrument. But that isn't where it is going to live. If the instrument does not have onboard reverb (and few will unless fairly new) then it cannot possibly deliver a pleasing sound.

[Vercus]

I am in New Ringgold, PA which is in Schuylkill County. It's on the eastern side of PA.

[myorgan]

Let me see what I can find. I know I've seen some near Newburgh, NY. Granted, it's not THAT close, but it's in driving distance. How far are you willing to travel?

Michael

[John Vanderlee]

I am near Newburgh NY. Any way I could help?
Vercus and I have talked. Picking something up in Newburgh is not that great an expense for me.

[toodles]

Please consider the 840 you mentioned--as I suggested, I think it can get through your doorway if turned on its end panels and rotated through the door opening. Somewhat like this drawing--it is roughly to scale. You'll need it to be on a dolly so you can shift it left to right as it passes through.

You are correct that the Allen 603D will not fit through your doorway, as it is the D console and too wide. Also, the Allen D console cannot go trough your opening on its side as the max diagonal is greater than your opening. A curved bracket or corbel makes the diagonal wider than the Rodgers which has a squared off support bracket.

[Vercus]

Hi Toodles,
Thanks for the info and suggestions. I just finished playing my Allen Carousel and it reaffirmed how much I like analog organs. I just finished repairing the second Leslie for it (one 760 and one 900) and I'll tell you what, that little spinet really romps.

With that in mind, I really would like the Rodgers to fit, but the dealer isn't too optimistic. Being a farm house, the walls are really thick, so the doorway is about 12" or so thick. I'm told that would prevent them from being able to get it in sideways. He must have measured the knee dimension a different way, because he said it was 34 1/2" that way. :-P

If it is indeed 29", then I feel like it could be possible, as long as a 12" deep sill doesn't interfere.

To me, the Rodgers has the best of both worlds, the warmth and personality of analog, and the modern possibilities of MIDI. Seems like a hard combo to beat.

EDIT: How involved would it be to add reverb to it? Would I just patch it in at the amp inputs? I have 4 stereo reverb units available, so plenty of options there.

[John Vanderlee]

I looked at Indianapolis IN as far as distance from your location; it would be a 2day drive. Fuel, toll and hotel cost you maybe $300, so the organ would cost you $1300. Quite reasonable as an ADC 221 just sold for $1250 without external speakers.
On the other hand, the ADC3100DK in MO. is a very nice organ - we have an ADC 3160DK at home, with reverb on it sounds spectacular. It's relatively compact as well. You could meet the owner halfway - for the same effort as above. Of course I don't know your position, but those are the routes I would go. Bring dollies and a friend!

[toodles]

840 Dimensions.pdf

Here is a dimensional drawing of the 840 with the knee specified--this is with the lid removed, which is easy to do as it is intended to be removed for servicing. Overall depth is 34-5/6, but the knee is less than 29 inches--about 28-3/8. I both measured the knee dimension and also used my drawing program to calculate it, and they came up the same, so I am sure of it. Dealer was probably not measuring the diagonal.

Make a cardboard cutout to see if it can pass through your door. It will be close.

[jbird604]

I suspect that going through a doorway in a 12" thick wall will create certain issues that a thin wall would not. It might mean that even with a knee measurement of 29" you still can't rotate the console through such a opening, since the knee at times will be several inches away from the edge of the door during the rotation. Best make a cardboard cutout and experiment. That would be a wonderful organ to have at home, but I'm a little doubtful about getting it in through that doorway.

[jbird604]

This discussion is pertinent to a lot of folks besides Jon. Many of us (well, me especially) are always having to move an organ in or out of the house, and it can be rather scary and also become very expensive. I'm thinking seriously of building myself a modular VPO setup so I can bring it home in manageable pieces. Would save me a lot of grief and money. And nobody would be wanting to buy it from me ;-)

[myorgan]

Wanna bet, John?

[toodles]

I think I've found a way to get the 840 through that doorway without any surgery:

1. Remove the lid temporarily.
2. Raise the stopboard and keyboard--they are hinged. There may be hold-down screws for the keyboards underneath the keydesk. Tie them up using rope or stretchy tie down bands like bungee cord, available at hardware stores, etc.). Be sure to use some padding to prevent damage to the wood, keys, and stops. Don't put pressure directly on the stops or keys--make sure the bands are on the end pieces for each.
3. Rotate the leading end of the console through the doorway at an angle, move forward, rotate the straight through portion (it'll be far less than the 33-1/2 inches maximum), then rotate the trailing end.

Here's a sketch of this process after the leading end has come through.

Regarding reverb: the 840 should have a spring reverb. The drive signal for it can be used to drive a digital reverb. There is a reverb recovery preamp in the 840, but you should not use it as its gain is meant for the reverb spring. Instead, bypass that preamp and connect to where the preamp feeds. It's realatively easy to do this. Or use separate amps and speakers for the reverb--a low power amp and inexpensive speakers are good enough for this purpose.

[Organkeys Jones]

I have used that method (remove roll top, raise manuals) to get a D size Allen in a very narrow door. The movers had left the organ outside on the deck. I had it inside in a few minutes. Very happy customer! Last year did the same thing with a 3-manual Allen theatre organ.