Wanting A Price For A Brand New Organ

[Philip Powell]

I'm not really in the market for a new organ quite yet, but I was just wondering how much a pretty basic 3 manual Allen or Rodgers (or anything else) would cost.

[jbird604]

Prices vary quite a lot depending on brand. Allen tends to be the most expensive, even at the entry level. Rodgers may have less expensive offerings at the low end, but their dealers all are now selling Johannus in addition to Rodgers, now that Rodgers is part of the "GOG" which includes Johannus, Makin, and Copeman-Hart.

Johannus prices are probably about as low as anything on the market today. Viscount may well have models just as cheap as Johannus, but Viscount has fewer dealers in the US, so you might have to look around to find one. There are probably other brands out there, but none of them would have anywhere near the dealer network or service backing of Allen, Rodgers, Johannus, and Viscount. Someone else may chime in and advise otherwise, of course.

I'm not in the retail end of it any more, but I do work with some dealers, and I'm pretty sure that even an entry-level two-manual can cost over $30K from Allen or Rodgers. I'd expect their cheapest 3m organs to be quite a bit more than that. OTOH, Johannus and Viscount tend to have much cheaper entry level models, even with three manuals, so there MIGHT be a 3m from either of those for under $20K. Best way to find out is to call a dealer. Be aware that an organ in that price range will be pretty stripped down, regardless of the brand. A very plain console, quite ordinary keyboards and pedals, and a rudimentary audio system.

[novitiate_organist]

Not sure if this helps, but our parish purchased a new two manual mid-grade Rodgers Artist with a few upgrades at a cost $48,000 (less installation and voicing).

[Organkeys Jones]

Please clarify - did the $48K include installation & voicing, or was that extra cost?

[novitiate_organist]

That should have said WITH voicing and installation. We had to pay a few extra subs for electrical changes and some minor construction. The console is pretty large.

[Dewey643]

I would NOT buy Johannus or Viscount,.....very cheap console construction! Current Rodgers organs not much better now that they are under Global Organ Group ownership,....a LOT of cutting corners to cut costs from what I have heard. Go with Allen if you can,....yes,they may be more expensive,...but you might be happier in the long run. JMO! Since we're talking about prices on new organs,....that brings up a question I have,....current organ is a Rodgers Essex 640,....considering TWO Allen models that I MIGHT,...I say again,...MIGHT,...consider trading it for in the future. Allen CF-10 with Allen keyboards as only option,OR Allen G210 with Allen keyboards and the Genisys voices as my only two options! Only question is,...what would my Rodgers Essex 640 be worth today? Just a thought for now! Also,...just so everyone knows,...Hauptwerk "virtual organ" is OUT of the question,....not even an option,...so it is not going to be considered.

[AllenAnalog]

"The trouble with Dewey643."

Is it just my browser (Firefox) or is there a problem with Dewey643's profile name/avatar in the database? For many months, whenever he posts, his name comes up twice - whether it be in the listing of Today's Posts or on an individual comment like these. I do not see this problem with any other member's posts.

In this thread, the comment from myorgan has Michael's avatar on the left and his name in bold letters to the right of that. With Dewey643's comment his name is in non-bold letters starting where the avatar would be and then those letters get clobbered by his name in bold letters on top of them starting right after the "y."

[myorgan]

Larry,

I've noticed that too with Chrome for Mac & Explorer on PC. It's showing up as a broken icon, but the remainder of your description matches what I'm seeing. I suppose we should make Admin aware and see if it's something that can be fixed.

Michael

[Admin]

The problem with Dewey643's avatar was due to a change from the way avatars were handled in the old Forum software. The old software had an Avatar Gallery from which users could choose an avatar. The Gallery was removed from the current software version breaking the users who used gallery avatars. When this occurs, the system displays the default grey profile avatar for the full size avatar, but due to a bug, displays a broken link for the thumbnail version and your browser displays the normally hidden title for the image. That's why his name was appearing twice and the formatting was screwed up.

I fixed Dewey643's image by uploading his previous avatar to his profile. There are probably dozens, if not thousands, of other members that also have broken avatar thumbnails for the same reason. Unfortunately, there is no global fix for this problem. Each broken avatar has to fixed on an individual basis. If you see a broken avatar link, let me know the user and I'll attempt to fix the issue.

BTW, it took me close to two hours to figure out how to deal with this because there are vestigial remains of the old software in the Administrator interface that appear to be functional but are not.

[don60]

I just spent a pleasant day back in December visiting the largest Rodgers dealer in the US. I saw and heard Rodgers and Johannus instruments side-by-side, including both Roland/Rodgers and GOG/Rodgers platforms. (All Rodgers will eventually use the GOG electronics once models are updated.) Build quality of the Rodgers does not appear to be compromised, while the Johannus products are getting better and better with respect to fit and finish. I truly believe that Johannus sound quality has been at the very top of the industry for a long time, although as with all brands much depends on installation and voicing.

Viscount products are also well made.

I would not hesitate to buy one of these brands unless I wanted a 60-year life cycle and military-grade durability, in which case Allen would make sense.

[myorgan]

Don,

Did you get a sense of the prices when you are at the dealer in December? I believe that's what the OP was asking about.

Michael

[don60]

We talked a little about pricing, but more from a relative standpoint ("This model is less than that model"). General pricing by brand, from most to least expensive, is 1) Allen 2) Rodgers 3) Johannus 4) Viscount.

Viscount is charging significantly less than Johannus for a comparable model, although neither is what one could call "cheap" these days. The era of aggressive pricing by the European makers is likely over since they have established their beachheads in the US and do not need to attract customers with come-on pricing any longer.

With regard to the above discussion, one can certainly get a very nice three-manual European for $30,000, and it will not be "stripped down" or devoid of all accessories and features.

[jbird604]

It's interesting how prices can be as low as they are from Viscount (and even from Johannus). Even though the consoles are thinner and lighter, the finish is less elegant, and some hardware (particularly pedal boards) may be less sturdy, it still seems that these cheaper brands are "good enough" for most purposes. I have seen quite a few that I would gladly have owned. Most of them have amazingly good sound, even if they aren't as pretty on the outside as an Allen. As long as they are given reasonable care, they should last for 20 or 30 years or more, and that's probably good enough for anyone.

I still think of that very cheap little Viscount G401 that I owned a few years ago as perhaps the most pleasant-sounding home organ I've had. It was very obviously cheap -- not even real wood or even real wood veneer, just some laminate material applied over particle board. But the sound was so very sweet, and the keys, tabs, and other parts were certainly good enough for me. I do remember the pedals were nothing at all like the pedals on an Allen or Rodgers, but they were acceptable for me.

[Philip Powell]

I've seen and heard a Viscount G401 and, like jbird, said, it is actually quite okay. The pedals are a little funky and the console isn't exactly pretty but the organ itself sounded great.

[ahlborn]

I would NOT buy Johannus or Viscount,.....very cheap console construction!

Allen CF-10 with Allen keyboards as only option,OR Allen G210 with Allen keyboards and the Genisys voices as my only two options!.

Really? This is a Viscount Prestige I, built in 2001. It doesn't seem like a cheap construction to me. Indeed, I see materials of excellent quality, robust, and a very accurate assembly.
The CF10 and G210 that you mentioned seem much more fragile and cheap consoles.
Everyone has what they spend.



photo taken from the web, obsured for privacy.

[myorgan]

photo taken from the web, obsured for privacy.

I was wondering who the guy with the afro was!;-)

ahlborn, Was that console solid wood, or wood veneer over another substance (i.e. particleboard)? It looks solid to me. I'm assuming the tangle of ribbon cables was because it was under construction rather than end-stage construction.

Though it's difficult to tell the ultimate quality of construction from one photo, from what I see, it appears to be solid. I wouldn't know until I had moved it from venue to venue.

Michael

[ahlborn]

I purposely darkened his face because the photo was taken from the web. The tangle of cables have been dismantled for maintenance at some dealer.

Yes, the construction of Prestige I is very solid, robust, and top quality materials are used. I know very well this organ.
Many parts are in solid wood, other parts are in multilayer maple, treated against damp, and covered with real wood. The joints are made according to the wood carpentry tradition.
Sorry that the name Viscount is linked (in America) to very inexpensive organs like the G401. These were very inexpensive organs is designed for students, for home practice. Viscount has also built many very beautiful and robust instruments, which are well known in Europe.

[myorgan]

@ahlborn,

Interesting how the same organ brand name can be thought of so differently depending on geographic location. I would imagine some of that is due to the local dealers and their attention to detail, but in some cases, even the build/sound quality varies from one geographic location to another.

For example I know Behringer audio equipment is generally known to have a "British" sound, whereas other equipment has an "American" sound. Odd how equipment gets a reputation-not necessarily good or bad, but different.

Thank you for sharing the information.

Michael

[ahlborn]

I am not sure why Viscount allowed to present itself in America under other names, but I suppose it was a strategy to enter the market using already known names (Baldwin and Wurlitzer). Here in Europe, where it is preferred to install pipe organs in churches, the electronic organ has mostly been considered a practice instrument only for studying at home. Until the 90s, European manufacturers have always built organs with a light and inexpensive console, because most were designed for the home environment.
In the mid-90s, the situation also changed in Europe, and manufacturers began building instruments with very robust, solid wood consoles, such as Ahlborn Chronicler III, or Viscount Prestige I, considering entering the market (albeit small) of the instruments sold to churches. These instruments due to their robustness have started to appear in some Church, selected to resist in a humid environment, and to resist the abuse of some organist with too violent hands (and feet). When they were designed, the engineers went to the pipe organ factories to learn the construction techniques of the pipe organ consoles.
Currently, European production is diversified, there is a line of high-priced organs, with large consoles; then there is a low price line for home study.
It is interesting to note the "home" line still offers variations in the quality of the console. Actually, there is an economic version covered in melamine, or a slightly more expensive version covered in real wood. In the version covered in real wood, HDF panels are used, which is not a "simple flakeboard", but when veneered it has characteristics of strength and stability in many cases superior to solid wood (the tests were carried out in the laboratories).
Today's "home" classical organs are certainly better built and more robust than those built in the past; and the more expensive ones have been built robustly since the mid-90s, at least for the brands I know personally. Europe later entered the world of the high-end electronic organ, because pipe organs have always been given priority, and I personally am happy about this. I still prefer a real, good, pipe organ, in church.

What I see today is a diversification of products across all brands. Allen is no exception. I was able to personally see the inside of one of their recent organs (Historique) and, honestly, I have not seen any consolle constructive superiority compared to the cheaper European models. Indeed, I could also criticize some obsolete design choices (for a electronic organ audio system), such as the use of passive crossovers for the audio system and the type of crossover capacitors and resistor, all elements that degrade the sound and induce distortion, compared to more modern solutions (such as digital crossovers, or use of special "audio grade" components).
However, perhaps in their more expensive organs they use more refined and better techniques. I have not yet personally visited one of their high-end organs.

[jbird604]

Viscount organs that were marketed under the Baldwin and Wurlitzer names helped give the company a reputation for somewhat lightweight construction compared to the US builders Allen and Rodgers. The consoles were obviously less sturdy and rather "raw" next to the US models. Many of us also found certain hardware, such as the pedals and drawknobs, to be sub-standard. But since that time, Viscount has sold many organs of much higher quality here.

My little G401 had a cheap exterior, but the sound was quite good and the hardware was all adequate. It might not have endured well in heavy usage, but for home practice it was fine.

However, the G404 that is sitting in my shop, waiting for the main board to be repaired, is a sturdier example of their work. The console is made of stronger material and has real wood veneer. The stop tabs are of higher quality. The pedal board is however of the same design, other than having real wood veneer, as the G401. My guess is that the G404 would be more suitable for a church or for a serious student than the G401.

Just a few years ago I helped a customer acquire a nearly new Viscount (I assisted with a person to person sale, when the original owner became ill). I think that one may have been called a "P40," but I'm not certain. Now THAT one was entirely different from either of these G400 models. It was built with high quality parts in every way. A very beautifully finished and sturdy console, excellent keyboard, nice stop tabs and other controls, and a great pedal board. It sounded marvelous too. This tells me that Viscount is currently building organs to a higher standard, when it comes to the externals that were somewhat flimsy 20 or 30 years ago.

[myorgan]

...how much a pretty basic 3 manual Allen or Rodgers (or anything else) would cost.

So, back to the OP's initial question-does anyone know the approximate price of a new organ in America as described above? Of course, it depends on whether it is new or used, as well as the build quality of a particular line of organs, and whether or not it comes from a dealer. I believe Philip is just looking for a ballpark figure.

An example of what he's looking for might be like this brochure I found in the gallery: https://organforum.com/gallery/displ...m=128&pid=3237. It seems like a new dealer price to me at the time that organ came out, but at least it's a contemporaneous ballpark figure at the time. Do we have anything close to that to give Philip?

Michael

[Admin]

That web page is out of date. It says the prices are special price:
"For a limited time, Viscount is offering our already affordable high quality organ at unprecedented pricing. Special pricing is valid until July 4th, 2018, or until specially designated stock lasts, whichever comes first."
So the prices are least two years old and the special prices quoted are no longer available.

Now that you know the model, call a Viscount dealer and ask for a current price.

[Philip Powell]

Funny, I didn't even see that! Viscount should really change that to avoid future confusion.

[myorgan]

However, if the price is still legitimately listed, I would think they should honor the price anyway. It just cuts into the dealer profit a little.

Michael

[Philip Powell]

I also found this Viscount website (that is updated) and I found this organ. This is their cheapest 2 man.+full pedalboard organ. I do think that this is from England but they do apparently ship (in 8 weeks). https://viscountorgans.net/products/cadet-31-s27/

[myorgan]

Philip,

Member don60 (who posted above) is, perhaps, your best resource for finding a US dealer. If not, he can probably lead you to someone. Try contacting him privately.

Michael

[Larrytow]

Phillip, If you are wanting a practice organ for home that is similar to most organs you will find in American churches, I would suggest that a European style console is the wrong choice. Regardless of price, or sound quality, or other features it has, a non AGO pedalboard is a silly choice for a practice instrument.

[Philip Powell]

Thanks, I didn't even think about the non-AGO pedalboard! That would be quite a big deal!

[Horseshoe_or]

Last I knew, the technology in their least expensive models is sampling not physics. That should not be a show stopper but just wanted to make you aware.

[Philip Powell]

Thanks, I don't think it's a total show-stopper either.

[musicmaker84]

Speaking of Viscount, I find their Cantorum Duo quite enchanting. Not 3 manuals, but a pretty nice setup for a bit more than $2000 plus shipping from Europe and duties: Add your own choice of (used) Midi AGO pedalboard, stand (IKEA sorts of desk), and (used) bench. Again, not exactly what you are asking for but something I would be eyeing if in need of a practice instrument without going the Hauptwerk route.

[Philip Powell]

Hmmm.... very interesting.

[musicmaker84]

And I'm quite intrigued by the low shipping cost from Europe for even the big one

[mrdc2000]

Be aware that the listed price is for delivery in Germany

[musicmaker84]

Germany should be free according to this table. But it could be higher to USA than listed. Still, probably cheaper than anything Allen et al. And hey, not made in China but in Italy (the China of Europe in the 70s and 80s).
And yes, the price total will be with shipping, duties and local taxes, not the net amount on the web page. Still cheaper, probably, than anything made in USA.

[SchnarrHorn]

Very interesting.Browsing, I came across the Chorum 20:
https://viscountorgans.net/products/chorum-20/
Never thought I'd see a 13 note pedal board again. Some quick cocktail napkin calculations: my family had a Conn spinet (13 note pedal board, 44 note keyboards) bought new in the late 60's for around $1800. An inflation calculator shows that's equivalent to $13,000 today. Converting the Chorum 20 price to dollars yields $7200. Certainly, the Chorum has a much more pipe-like sound and more unique stops. On the other hand, the Conn had a hardwood cabinet. Rows of tubes and point to point wiring (by hand) in the amps and components were very expensive to manufacture.

[mrdc2000]

This too is from a foreign website and in this case applies to England only.
European manufacturing for the USA market involves considerable extra costs to meet USA electrical codes and several duties and tariffs and than also very expensive sea freight shipping to the nearest Atlantic port, then more shipping to the dealer and eventually your home. Contact a US Viscount dealer and they will quote a fair retail price.
I just went and did all that this year and we love our new Cantorum Duo.