Advice for a soon-to-be home organ owner?

[JonnyMusic]

Specifically, from any owners of the Johannus LiVE series of home organs? Though, owners of home organs from the same or other builders are welcome to join in the conversation. Though bear in mind that since my church has a Johannus organ and since I played it a lot as one of the organists of my church, I'm pretty sold on Johannus organs at this point, especially with what they have to offer now.

I'm looking into getting a LiVE 3T-A as fully-decked out as possible for the most creative freedom and control as possible.

Though I have been looking into the Johannus Sweelinck 30 as an in-between before upgrading to the LiVE 3T-A. Though those are really hard to find online alone, and I'm a very busy man nowadays to take the time to dig into other classifieds.

However, I must be clear that I want to get a home organ that does have MIDI ports and functionality so that it's not only for practicing purposes, though also for music production. My profile and website on my profile show more detail about that.

Anyone out there who can contribute to this topic?

Thanks.

[JeffW]

I've posted a bit about the LiVE 3T-A in the Classic & Church Electronics sub forum here https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...e-3t-a-at-home

I was initially tempted to post in the Virtual Organs sub forum as, for all practical purposes, it is only a virtual organ. But the moderators didn't move it, so my posts are there.

Regarding the MIDI functionality, I've used the 3T-A just a bit with a laptop running Hauptwerk and with the output going back into the stereo "aux in" of the 3T-A and it was fine (limited by the laptop's sound capabilities, not Hauptwerk or Johannus). The Johannus sample sets are optimized for the built-in 6.1 audio system (7 speakers), so a much better external audio system is needed for other VPO software/sample sets. As I didn't buy the Johannus MIDI Sequencer+, I use an iOS app MIDI Tool Box for recording and playing back and it works well--I found it well demo'ed on Glenn Osborne's site: http://www.organimprovisation.com/ca...demonstration/

Like you, my full-time+ work didn't leave much room to build my own VPO.

As you'll see in some of my other posts about the 3T-A the only real issue was the lack of clarity about the Johannus sample sets. However, starting with the Vater-Mueller sample set their marketing materials are now more clear about what how the sample sets differ between the original LiVE III model and the other LiVE models: the LiVE III gets the full sample set and the other LiVE models get between 60%-80% of the sample set--knowing that upfront is very important.

Among the replies and comments to my post, someone posted the link to a German language blog with LiVE user comments. If your German is Internet-ready, you'll learn more than I (though I Google-translated posts and learned a bit).

Good luck!

[andyg]

I'm moving this thread to the correct section. 'Home Organs' does not cover classical/church or pure theatre models (even if they are used at home), so they have their own sections, where threads should get better responses.

[JonnyMusic]

I'm moving this thread to the correct section. 'Home Organs' does not cover classical/church or pure theatre models (even if they are used at home), so they have their own sections, where threads should get better responses. It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

Thanks Andy.

Though knowing exactly what it is I want to do with the organ and comparing it with different models and builders (as explained on my profile and website), my preference still stands with the Johannus 3T-A, especially due to my bias for the builder when playing the Johannus organ at my church.

[JonnyMusic]

Thanks Andy.

Though knowing exactly what it is I want to do with the organ and comparing it with different models and builders (as explained on my profile and website), my preference still stands with the Johannus 3T-A, especially due to my bias for the builder when playing the Johannus organ at my church.

And now that I look back at what I said, I take everything back. My complacent bias for Johannus clouded me from doing my further research, as I'm not even able to afford a brand new organ as of today. Not to mention, have this particular instrument last until the end of my days, especially considering how much I may push it to the limit for what I want to do.

At this point, even though I have not played one yet, Allen organs may very well be the best choice for me, considering how much I want to do, and not be limited to certain boundaries.

Heck, I even want to acquire/upgrade to an M&O (Marshall & Ogletree) organ in the late future, since they're known to be the "Rolls Royce of Digital Organs".

This post and much more (despite it being on a site hosted by Allen organs) was enough to show me that I needed more perspective as to know where my hard-earned money would go and how much it would actually last in the long-term: (See attached link)

[myorgan]

Be careful about taking advice from websites sponsored by the competition. Even though I'm an Allen fan, I'm sure Allen Organ is, by far, not the foremost authority on the present building practices of other vendors. On the other hand, it is definitely good to know the questions to ask a particular vendor when looking around.

Michael

[JonnyMusic]

myorgan Thank you for your insight. I'm aware of what you said (as I have already disclaimed it in the post that the site was hosted by them). Though after looking back at what I liked (in terms of how Allen organs was involved in my life) before my influence with Johannus, and also taking into consideration in regards to how specific I want to be for a music production organ that should last a long while, Allen looks to be the best choice for me as of the time I'm typing this.

[toodles]

If you like baroque style organs, Organ Stop in San Diego has a used custom 2-manual Allen available used for $11,500. This uses an individual computer for each stop, and the results can be spectacular, as each voice can be individually voiced. Be aware, it is a 14 channel organ, so it has lots of speakers.

See this page, the listing is from May 12, so scroll down about halfway: http://www.organstop.com/wordpress-2.8.3/wordpress/

[jbird604]

Wow! Now that is the kind of organ I'd be all over if I could. Having heard a couple of those amazing TT-4 organs, I'd put one of these up against any brand new organ on the market today from any builder. The price is certainly just a token, a tiny fraction of what such an organ would cost today. The shipping would surely add a thousand or two though to most anywhere in the US.

[Dutchy]

Hi JonnyMusic,

In addition to what myorgan said, an experience from practice. I regularly play a Johannus 225, standing in a retirement home, frequently played by different organists (nearly daily). It's a analogue organ, presumably build between 1985-1990 so at least 30 years old. It recently had a little maintance because of a minor malfunction in one pedal key, but beside that it functions completely normal.
To be sure, I'm not advocating nor rejecting any brand, I only want to share a factual experience.

Beside that, I question if it is desirable for a home organ to last that long. The sound of above mentioned Johannus 225 is not bad for the time it was build, but in my opinion it is by far not meeting today's standards of digital organs, be it Allen or Johannus or whatever.
If you want to buy an organ for the coming 30 years, be sure it is upgradable and the voicing tools are sufficient to adapt the sound to the possible higer standards of 20xx.

May be it's better to buy a good used one from, say, 10 years old. Presumably it will sound very acceptable, whatever the brand is (although this is also a matter of taste). Mostly the organs from the last 10 years has voicing possibilities, be it Allen Johannus or any other brand like Rodgers, Viscount or Content. And, when you want to, these kind of organs mostly can be conversed to VPO (such as Hauptwerk).

Good luck with your search!
Dutchy

[myorgan]

And, when you want to, these kind of organs mostly can be conversed to VPO (such as Hauptwerk).

That is, assuming the pedals still work.;-) I'm sorry, Dutchy. You really did leave yourself wide open for that one!

Seriously, he's giving great advice. Certain current organs are better suited than others for a VPO project, however, that will only become more and more true over the years.

Michael

[JonnyMusic]

Hi JonnyMusic,

In addition to what myorgan said, an experience from practice. I regularly play a Johannus 225, standing in a retirement home, frequently played by different organists (nearly daily). It's a analogue organ, presumably build between 1985-1990 so at least 30 years old. It recently had a little maintance because of a minor malfunction in one pedal key, but beside that it functions completely normal.
To be sure, I'm not advocating nor rejecting any brand, I only want to share a factual experience.

Beside that, I question if it is desirable for a home organ to last that long. The sound of above mentioned Johannus 225 is not bad for the time it was build, but in my opinion it is by far not meeting today's standards of digital organs, be it Allen or Johannus or whatever.
If you want to buy an organ for the coming 30 years, be sure it is upgradable and the voicing tools are sufficient to adapt the sound to the possible higer standards of 20xx.

May be it's better to buy a good used one from, say, 10 years old. Presumably it will sound very acceptable, whatever the brand is (although this is also a matter of taste). Mostly the organs from the last 10 years has voicing possibilities, be it Allen Johannus or any other brand like Rodgers, Viscount or Content. And, when you want to, these kind of organs mostly can be conversed to VPO (such as Hauptwerk).

Good luck with your search!
Dutchy

Understood, Dutchy. However, words don't always tell the whole story. Unedited pictures and videos (including with sound/audio) can tell 1000 words.

Though I must make myself clear that I care a lot about the overall product quality (especially the building part of it), as brand new organs (whether pipe, digital or hybrid) can be a really hefty investment (like any other high-priced products such as cars, houses, etc.) and I don't want to settle for a previously-owned one given the main uses that I want to get out of it.

Thus I need to use extra diligence to confirm the right choice for me when it comes to getting my very first organ (yes, you hear that right. As I want to get more than one (especially from other builders in mind), though for the far-off future depending on how things will be going on in my years ahead)).

I'm going to actually try out a newer Allen organ for the very first time tomorrow, as I've never gotten the chance to play on one before. I'll even be recording a vlog of the experience as I really want to cherish this moment since I've been reminding myself of how much I ironically really liked Allen organs in general, especially the sound they produce, from casual music videos on YouTube alone. This video is one of many examples of an Allen organ that I enjoyed listening to a lot from years ago and still do to this day:

[ahlborn]

Dear JonnyMusic,
Are you really sure? Do you know exactly in which context those photos were taken?
Do you know exactly the model and age of the organs that are depicted?
Do you really think that Allen, at the same cost, offers significantly better models?

You can do a search on this forum to see what I think of that site (there are many threads), also including technical explanations.

I see that sometimes there is some update on that site. Sometimes I read it, when I'm in a bad mood, because is a lot of fun.
I recently read the criticism that is made of physical modeling on that site.
http://www.church-organs.com/?p=773

A mixture of rhetoric and bad information on the physical principles that govern the functioning of organ pipes. A airplane is even cited, due to incorrect assessments of the physical modeling principles. As if this could prove that physical modeling organs are inferior because physical modeling would have been misused by an aircraft manufacturer (moreover, in a totally different context). Only rhetoric, would also be fun.
The superiority of the sampling system is then mentioned (used by Allen), and even the possibility of being able to accurately reproduce a Cavaille-Coll organ is mentioned.
Have you ever played a real Cavaille Coll?
Well, I've played several Cavaille Coll, and I've played several digital organs that have the stops sampled by Cavaille Coll.
I tried Allen Cavaille Coll stops suite.
How it can be said that it accurately reproduces the real sound of Cavaille Coll is a mystery to me. It is a very distant Cavaille Coll sound aesthetic, both for attack, stops timbre, both for general amalgam.
I wonder if mysterious author that wrote article ever played a real Cavaille Coll. And if he really know how a plane works. If this is the premise, I hope that he will not be a pilot! You wrote that you would like an organ that can last a lifetime.

I must disappoint you: Allen organs fail just like all normal electronic equipment, as well as all electronic/digital organs. There are examples of disastrous failures of Allen organs, even after a few years of use, as well as failures of other brands.
And if you want to compare the quality of an Allen organ with another brand, you can ask to open the rear panel, on two instruments that are in the same price range. You may even find that other brands have higher quality.

[JonnyMusic]

Dear JonnyMusic,
Are you really sure? Do you know exactly in which context those photos were taken?
Do you know exactly the model and age of the organs that are depicted?
Do you really think that Allen, at the same cost, offers significantly better models?

You can do a search on this forum to see what I think of that site (there are many threads), also including technical explanations.

I see that sometimes there is some update on that site. Sometimes I read it, when I'm in a bad mood, because is a lot of fun.
I recently read the criticism that is made of physical modeling on that site.
http://www.church-organs.com/?p=773

A mixture of rhetoric and bad information on the physical principles that govern the functioning of organ pipes. A airplane is even cited, due to incorrect assessments of the physical modeling principles. As if this could prove that physical modeling organs are inferior because physical modeling would have been misused by an aircraft manufacturer (moreover, in a totally different context). Only rhetoric, would also be fun.
The superiority of the sampling system is then mentioned (used by Allen), and even the possibility of being able to accurately reproduce a Cavaille-Coll organ is mentioned.
Have you ever played a real Cavaille Coll?
Well, I've played several Cavaille Coll, and I've played several digital organs that have the stops sampled by Cavaille Coll.
I tried Allen Cavaille Coll stops suite.
How it can be said that it accurately reproduces the real sound of Cavaille Coll is a mystery to me. It is a very distant Cavaille Coll sound aesthetic, both for attack, stops timbre, both for general amalgam.
I wonder if mysterious author that wrote article ever played a real Cavaille Coll. And if he really know how a plane works. If this is the premise, I hope that he will not be a pilot! You wrote that you would like an organ that can last a lifetime.

I must disappoint you: Allen organs fail just like all normal electronic equipment, as well as all electronic/digital organs. There are examples of disastrous failures of Allen organs, even after a few years of use, as well as failures of other brands.
And if you want to compare the quality of an Allen organ with another brand, you can ask to open the rear panel, on two instruments that are in the same price range. You may even find that other brands have higher quality.

Got proof to show me?

Words don't always tell the whole story. Unedited pictures and videos (including with sound/audio) can tell 1000 words.

Show me proof, and I might believe you. Though I must mention that after that appointment I had recently, it reminded me how much I actually liked the sound signature of Allen organs (as they sound very darn close to actual pipe organs, according to my experience with playing on a few real pipe organs before. A Casavant Freres one, and an Austin/Lauck one).

Plus, how can you argue the fact that Allen Organ Company takes the build construction of their organs very seriously with consistent standards compared to other digital organ builders?

The proof is in the pudding.

I'm waiting.

P.S. The general public does not give a darn about the organ builders in question, whether they be digital or pipe (and hybrids). As long as they enjoy the music they listen to and that it sounds good to the general public, that's all that matters in the long-run.

[samibe]

With that website, you have less proof than you think. It's wise to test-drive widely. If you're going to buy a new organ, try them all. You've got nothing to lose. Experience is worth 1000 pictures.

[ahlborn]

Got proof to show me?
Words don't always tell the whole story. Unedited pictures and videos (including with sound/audio) can tell 1000 words.
...
Plus, how can you argue the fact that Allen Organ Company takes the build construction of their organs very seriously with consistent standards compared to other digital organ builders?

The proof is in the pudding.

I'm waiting.

I have written several threads on the subject, you can search for them. I have strongly criticized the "wonderful Allen keyboards", which come out of the factory often poorly adjusted. I criticized, arguing technically, all the lies that are in that site, when other organs are criticized. Allen should be more concerned with the quality and design of his organs than with other companies. There was also a nice discussion about the failure of a large Allen (Johnson Ferry Church) organ, and the fact that Allen offered (after years of malfunctions) to repair it for free, does not justify that its large organ has failed.

Images and videos tell a story, the one Allen wants. It is in fact, CASUALLY, Allen's videos are recorded professionally, while the demonstration videos of other companies are videos recorded amateurly, without any professional equipment, so that the disparity of equipment can make the Allen organs appear to the advantage.
Some time ago, the Viscount distributor from England criticized this choice, and posted some professionally made Viscount recordings links on that site. And the administrator of that site immediately removed the professionally registered links, leaving the amateur recordings. Yes, a nice recorded video of Allen organ can say a thousand words, and Allen knows it well, because a video of a company like Viscount can say 10,000.

On the quality of the furniture I think I have also written in abundance, you can look for discussions on this forum.

Maybe I've never written about Allen pedals, so you're giving me a good chance to do it.

Of course on that site you will find that Allen pedals are superior to the competition. Photos are also shown.
Now let's analyze two pedalboards, Allen and Viscount.

Allen pedalboard: normal design with wooden structure.
Pedal guide design with a metal pin in which the pedal slides. The pin is inserted above and below directly into the wood.
This obsolete project is weak: the torsional force that the pin receives from the pedal can in some cases cause the wood to break where the pin is housed, and when this happens, the pin no longer performs its function as a key guide.
And in fact, in the photo of the Allen pedal (sponsored by that site), you can clearly see a crack in the wood just in conjunction with the lower hole of the pin! Wow!



The Viscount pedal unit uses a beech multilayer panel treated against humidity, 25mm thick, from which the key housings are milled with CNC machines. This design ensures that the torsional forces of the pedal do not create any long-term damage in the key seat.



Now let's see the structural solidity.

The Allen pedal has a wooden perimeter structure, without central reinforcement joints.




This project is weak, because the general solidity of the pedal is obtained only with the wooden perimeter frame.

This instead is the Viscount pedalboard.



Do you see two black bars together with two frames above and below? Well, it's stainless steel. It is a very solid steel frame that connects to the lower block (in solid beech, which is the support for the pedal springs), up to the upper block. This design ensures maximum sturdiness and rigidity of pedalboard, surely well above Allen.
The whole perimeter is built with multilayer beech, which has physical characteristics and stability far superior to solid wood, for thicknesses up to 25 mm.

And if you're wondering about the quality of Viscount springs, you can look for yourself.




The Allen pedal contacts are installed in the console, and in the pedals there are the magnets that operate the reed switches. This project does not guarantee the pedalboard interchangeability with one of a different type. If you want to replace a 32-key AGO pedal, with a 30-key one you will need to change the position of the contacts because the new pedal will have the magnets positioned differently.

The Viscount pedalboard has the contacts installed directly in the pedal structure. This means that you can easily replace any pedal board, simply detach and reattach a cable.


p.s. Personally, I'm not interested in convincing you. You can convince yourself of what you prefer. But since this forum is frequented by many people, it is necessary to reply to certain statements.

[myorgan]

(Michael puts on frustrated member hat.)

p.s. Personally, I'm not interested in convincing you. You can convince yourself of what you prefer. But since this forum is frequented by many people, it is necessary to reply to certain statements.

You're not?=-O When one looks at the majority of posts you have made, almost without exception it is to bash one brand of organ-Allen.

But since this forum is frequented by many people, it is necessary to reply to certain statements.

Exactly which statement compelled you to reply to this thread? He's a new member and has no idea how much you dislike Allen? Given, it was foolish to ask you to provide proof (opinions?), but he isn't bashing any of the organs you like!

Maybe I've never written about Allen pedals....

I doubt it.

The Viscount pedalboard has the contacts installed directly in the pedal structure. This means that you can easily replace any pedal board, simply detach and reattach a cable.

I teach lessons on a Rodgers organ like that. It has been "repaired" several times and still has issues. In fact, even the centronics connector has had issues. I've been advised there are no repair parts readily available (or replacement pedalboards)-so, she's stuck with the organ pedals and what the local repair guy can do for her (not much-that's a commentary on the repair guy, not the organ). I have to say this experience is NOT representative of all my contacts with Rodgers organs, though. Just this one.

Do you see two black bars together with two frames above and below? Well, it's stainless steel. It is a very solid steel frame that connects to the lower block (in solid beech, which is the support for the pedal springs), up to the upper block. This design ensures maximum sturdiness and rigidity of pedalboard, surely well above Allen.

Is that a crack I see just above your metal frame? I wonder where that came from? Surely, that's repairable. Also, that pedalboard appears to only have one glide on it in the far corner.

I have written several threads on the subject, you can search for them.

One can view the threads you have posted by clicking on your name, and then when in your profile, they are able to click on "About" and then "Find all posts." There you can search for everything Ahlborn has posted regarding Allen organs. I daresay you won't find a positive thing there-unlike others who regularly post the positives of many organs they encounter.

The OP is looking for "advice for a soon-to-be home organ owner." Now is your chance to tell him about the virtues of physis and the organs you represent in Italy. Why do you waste your time and posting space to bash another company?

Michael

[ahlborn]

(Michael puts on frustrated member hat.)You're not?=-O When one looks at the majority of posts you have made, almost without exception it is to bash one brand of organ-Allen.

Dear moderator, obviously the reasons are clear if I answer. I must therefore make a clarification: I feel a moral duty to intervene whenever that "famous" site hosted by Allen is mentioned. I criticize that site: the fact that Allen is indirectly criticized is only a natural consequence.

Exactly which statement compelled you to reply to this thread? He's a new member and has no idea how much you dislike Allen? Given, it was foolish to ask you to provide proof (opinions?), but he isn't bashing any of the organs you like!

I replied to a user who asked for evidence of Allen's site. Technically arguing, no opinions. I thought this was a forum where technical issues can be discussed. Or is it possible write only when the old European electronic organs are criticized, because they were poorly constructed? I ask, without irony, what should be written in this forum.

I doubt it.

You're right, sorry. I once criticized Allen "princess" pedalboard design. I think I wrote that it is a very badly engineered pedalboard, due to its size. As an organist, I still think so. But only today I argue about structural weakness.

I teach lessons on a Rodgers organ like that. It has been "repaired" several times and still has issues. In fact, even the centronics connector has had issues. I've been advised there are no repair parts readily available (or replacement pedalboards)-so, she's stuck with the organ pedals and what the local repair guy can do for her (not much-that's a commentary on the repair guy, not the organ). I have to say this experience is NOT representative of all my contacts with Rodgers organs, though. Just this one.

You centered the argument: a case of malfunction cannot negatively mark Rodgers' entire production. Maybe we are saying the same thing, but with different terms.
I teach organ on a real pipe organ (I categorically refuse to teach on an electronic organ), and I can say I have never had problems with the Centronics connector, I admit that this is an advantage.

Is that a crack I see just above your metal frame? I wonder where that came from? Surely, that's repairable. Also, that pedalboard appears to only have one glide on it in the far corner.

No, you're wrong, there is no crack. That sign you see is a scratch: when I pulled out the pedalboard a little stone fragment scratched the wood. There is really nothing to repair. I'm sorry that you only see a one glide on far corner, because the structural solidity of that pedalboard is much higher than... Allen.

One can view the threads you have posted by clicking on your name, and then when in your profile, they are able to click on "About" and then "Find all posts." There you can search for everything Ahlborn has posted regarding Allen organs. I daresay you won't find a positive thing there-unlike others who regularly post the positives of many organs they encounter.

Thank you, so the new member will be able to search for my posts: they can be important for many people, or at least, for objective organists. Pity that many threads are in the grease pit.

The OP is looking for "advice for a soon-to-be home organ owner." Now is your chance to tell him about the virtues of physis and the organs you represent in Italy. Why do you waste your time and posting space to bash another company?

I just did it: I showed the advantages and construction superiority of the Viscount pedal. I think I stayed on the topic.
But this sentence of yours asks me questions.
You wrote that I would represent the Physis organs in Italy. As I have specified several times, this is not true. I don't work for Viscount. I am a happy owner of two Physis organs. I am an organ teacher and a concertist.
If I really have to support a just cause, I do it in favor of the true pipe organ, not for a electronic organ.

But I ask (and this is off topic): what is the limit that the forum has to decide when a member is impartial or not? I am accused of being linked to Viscount. However, in all my posts, I repeat, in all, I have never opened dedicated advertising threads: I always answered technically, and when I posted audio examples, I did it in response to someone who asked for information.
Yet I often see all Allen organs in the signature of the moderators. The moderators themselves openly declare themselves fans of Allen. And the moderators themselves often openly criticize the old european electronic organs (and they are often right, just as I am right to criticize Allen). But I ask: what is the limit of impartiality? What is the discretionary "meter"?
Don't you think that maybe, even if you don't like what I say, it can balance the weight of the discussions?

Off topic #2: I noticed that from today on my profile there is a facebook and tweeter connection. I'm afraid it's a mistake. I don't have a profile on these social networks.

Best regards.

[Admin]

We have enabled third party registration and login options for Facebook, Twitter, and Google. This is to make it easier for visitors to the Organ Forum to register, sign-in and participate in the Organ Forum using other social media accounts they may have.

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[Admin]

Impartiality is not a requirement for participating here. Very, very rarely do we remove posts here for any reason and absolutely never delete or move posts because the views expressed don't coincide with that of the Moderators or myself.

[Horseshoe_or]

I won't pass judgement on current Viscount organs because I have not seen or played one. I have seen and played their organs built for Baldwin many of which were cheaply constructed and didn't sound all that great. I have owned four Allen instruments over the years and still own one. They seem well built and have required very little maintenance. To be fair, maintenance on Allens can be pricey. I also owned a large 3 manual Galanti. The cabinet was not will built and the sound was no where near as good as the Allen it set next too. There in lies the problem for Italian an Dutch organs--a long history of poorly constructed instruments. It has been probably 15 years since I have played a Dutch instrument. I hope that Dutch and Italian builders have improved greatly. After the virus has past, I hope, in my travels, to have the opportunity to check out several new Viscount instrument so I can better understand physis technology and overall build quality. The smart purchaser tells the salesman to stop the pitch and sits down and plays the instrument, looks at cabinet construction and looks inside. Of course there are always trade offs and budget restraints.