What instrument for home practice?

[jonmyrlebailey]

For musicians who play or study pipe organ, what home instrument is commonly used today for organ practice?

Is there a particular electric organ model/make that is good practice instrument for Bach or Couperin, for example? Would the same such instrument be suitable for jazz or blues music as well? I think of the leslie speaker as sounding funky but formal (classical, serious) music is not supposed to be funky. The old Conn my mother had a leslie that could be switched on and off. It had voice controls for flute, reed and strings tones.

In Bach's time, the pedal harpsichord was common as a home practice instrument for organists of churches. Toccata and Fugue in D Minor was likely composed with the wiggy old man Johann Sebastian Bach sitting at one of these small stringed wonders. Harpsichords these days tend to be expensive, rare and consume much living room space. They can be a chore to keep properly tuned to boot. There must be a relatively-small, practical and affordable electric instrument these days even for a small apartment. One needs pedal capability and all the various voicings of a pipe organ. One needs dynamic control as well. Is there such electric organ with even voix celeste as a tone?

I would want an instrument to practice various genres:

-classical, Baroque, Romantic
-church, hymn
-jazz
-rock
-pop
-Latin
-soul
-gospel
-funk
-blues
-boogie-woogie
-ragtime
-marching band, Americana
-folk

[timnc]

The only instrument that comes to my mind that could handle that list would be the Dexibell S9. It's an 88 key "slab" keyboard. You would need to get MIDI pedalboard or convert one from a classical organ. Viscount makes an AGO 32-note MIDI pedalboard if you wish to go the classical toe-heel route. The S9 has a ton of capability as you would need a tone wheel organ for some of those like gospel, but you also need the distortion rock. If you need vertical manuals, you can add another midi manual. The other thought is to look into VPO which I am not that familiar with, but there are many on this site who could help with that.

[jonmyrlebailey]

The only instrument that comes to my mind that could handle that list would be the Dexibell S9. It's an 88 key "slab" keyboard. You would need to get MIDI pedalboard or convert one from a classical organ. Viscount makes an AGO 32-note MIDI pedalboard if you wish to go the classical toe-heel route. The S9 has a ton of capability as you would need a tone wheel organ for some of those like gospel, but you also need the distortion rock. If you need vertical manuals, you can add another midi manual. The other thought is to look into VPO which I am not that familiar with, but there are many on this site who could help with that.

I've looked at a number of instruments online. I found these brands:

Rowland
Johannus

Some of these instruments rival new automobile prices and they are just nothing but lousy stinking electronic instruments in fancy wooden consoles. You would think with mass-production advanced electronics technology today these instruments would be priced under $1,000 like new big-screen TV sets. I feel that becoming an organist these days is for the rich and the snooty. Certainly no welfare child with natural musical talent aspiring to be a master of the pipe organ could afford one of these. The instrument I had in mind could allow Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor to be performed correctly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fKc9xv7Bt4

Some famous jazz musicians in olden days bought cheap plastic trumpets and saxophones for practice in boyhood. Fairly cheap 88-key electronic instruments with the three pedals can still be bought for home piano practice if a Steinway grand is not in one's budget. We need something of a cheap plastic "pipe" organ for practice. Then in churches or cathedrals we can play THE REAL DEAL after we have become proficient enough to belt out Bach's majestic Toccatas and Fugues.

For the instrument price perspective, in 1962, E. Power Bigg's new John Challis (American hand-crafted) pedal harpsichord was a paltry $2,000 then. Can a new or even a good preowned pedal harpsichord (a noble acoustic musical instrument like those of Bach's time) be had for a fraction of the cost of these new electronic contraptions?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR1BxVluozI

[smithge31419]

My two bits worth (since I'm old enough to remember when you could actually buy something with a quarter 😀)

"Some of these instruments rival new automobile prices "
"instrument price perspective, in 1962, E. Power Bigg's new John Challis (American hand-crafted) pedal harpsichord was a paltry $2,000 then."

For perspective, one must remember that in 1962, the sticker price of the ever popular F*rd G*laxy ranged from $2500 to $3500 and gasoline was $.31/gallon.

Unfortunately, organs are not a consumer commodity item, manufactured, marketed, and sold by the millions. Hence, producers will always have difficulty selling them cheaply.

[timnc]

Roland makes fantastic digital pianos; the best IMHO. Their organs were built by Rodgers which is now owned by the same parent co that owns Johannus. I've played a Johannus 3-manual 58 stop organ at church--it sounds pretty good but I don't like the quality at all. The only Johannus hardware I like is not Johannus, but Dexibell who makes the keyboard for their "One." I own the Dexibell version. I also have a used Allen 2-manual--but I do not live in an apartment where space is a premium.

To properly play classical music like Bach, you will need a full pedalboard. If you want to transition to a church, I suggest an AGO so the key layout is identical. AGO (American Guild of Organists) has defined several specs on how an organ labeled "AGO" should function and be laid out--the most critical being the pedalboard since you cannot be looking at your feet all the time. So my advice would be go the virtual pipe organ route. You could either build it from parts or find a used console with MIDI and an AGO pedalboard. The VPO will give you the most flexibility in sound as you can load various organ sounds. Just know that a full pedalboard will take up significant space especially an AGO like the one in the video link.

[hp_lovecraft]

For my son, an organist, we have a nice 60s era wurlitzer at the house. Lots of those old analog organs have 2-3 manuals, and a full, or near full pedalboard. and back then much of the internal components were modular, and easily removed to work on.. and old organs are always free. There are still a few Wurly techs (ie Morlocke) for service, and when it dies, I'll just get another and use the old one for parts.

Of course, we have lots of reed organs, but unless you have one of the massive ones , they are not really a good practice substitute.

[jonmyrlebailey]

Roland makes fantastic digital pianos; the best IMHO. Their organs were built by Rodgers which is now owned by the same parent co that owns Johannus. I've played a Johannus 3-manual 58 stop organ at church--it sounds pretty good but I don't like the quality at all. The only Johannus hardware I like is not Johannus, but Dexibell who makes the keyboard for their "One." I own the Dexibell version. I also have a used Allen 2-manual--but I do not live in an apartment where space is a premium.

To properly play classical music like Bach, you will need a full pedalboard. If you want to transition to a church, I suggest an AGO so the key layout is identical. AGO (American Guild of Organists) has defined several specs on how an organ labeled "AGO" should function and be laid out--the most critical being the pedalboard since you cannot be looking at your feet all the time. So my advice would be go the virtual pipe organ route. You could either build it from parts or find a used console with MIDI and an AGO pedalboard. The VPO will give you the most flexibility in sound as you can load various organ sounds. Just know that a full pedalboard will take up significant space especially an AGO like the one in the video link.

I'm turned off by the notion of having to "build" a "musical instrument". The guitar, trumpet, sax, violin, horn or flute student doesn't have to do that with their respective instruments. I have a feeling that economics nowadays doesn't support commercial manufacture of a new cheap ready-made and space-saving out-of-the-box electric home instrument for serious pipe organ students yet. The organ is unpopular these days anyway so I guess it's market demand. Too many young people want to take up piano. Some aspiring musicians don't want to be techno-nerds. I don't want to have to master major and minor scales on top of having to master computer software. When organs and harpsichords someday soon become extinct, the music of the Baroque period will be forever lost. Does a commercial jet pilot have to build his own airplane? Student aircraft pilots have planes they call "trainers". Aspiring classical organists lack a cheap plug-in-and-play instrument out of the box: a trainer of sorts.

Those Dexibells are digital pianos and they are stupid overpriced. My Casio LK-175 "consumer" keyboard was about $159 new 5 years ago. It lacks pedals and only has 61 keys so you don't even get the lowest register of the piano. It's still a fun little toy to learn simple pieces of music.

[Leisesturm]

I haven't heard of a 'Dexibell'. I don't know why it was even mentioned. There are tons of Korg, Roland, Alesis, Yamaha, Casio and other mainstream, mass market electronic keyboard instruments that the o.p. could not under any circumstances discount as 'stupid expensive'. My Alesis QS6.8 is far more capable a device than a harpsichord would have been in 1962 and cost far less in 2001 than the harpsichord did in 1962.

[jonmyrlebailey]

I haven't heard of a 'Dexibell'. I don't know why it was even mentioned. There are tons of Korg, Roland, Alesis, Yamaha, Casio and other mainstream, mass market electronic keyboard instruments that the o.p. could not under any circumstances discount as 'stupid expensive'. My Alesis QS6.8 is far more capable a device than a harpsichord would have been in 1962 and cost far less in 2001 than the harpsichord did in 1962.

I have a Casio already but it's certainly not a serious instrument for an organ student for practice. No pedals whatsoever. Only one "manual". Again in Bach's time, PEDAL harpsichords were constructed especially for home organ practice and Bach even used them to compose organ works. That $2,000 (1962 retail) Chailis pedal harpsichord Mr. Biggs owned had the pedal division like an organ and two manuals as well as several voicings. Any Bach organ piece could be rendered on it with slight improvisation. This is a stringed instrument and doesn't have the holding power of an organ. Long pedal points have to be played repeatedly every so many bars. I have yet to hear Bach's Toccata and Fugue in F Major performed on a pedal harpsichord. That would be some sort of hat trick. That piece has very long bass notes through 108 bars.


This is just like my Casio LK-175: no pedals, single manual

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=corpEi-NO9I


Here is Mr. Biggs performing Bach on a pedal harpsichord:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAmgeYjgfyk

Fantasie and Fugue in G minor

[Leisesturm]

I doubt pedal harpsichords (or clavichords) were constructed especially for home organ practice. They obviously could be used as such by the one or two individuals wealthy enough to have one in their homes in each burg of a particular region. More often they simply served as a non-winded analogue to pipe organs as a cheaper substitute or simply as a different voice altogether. Long pedal points didn't stop Bach from writing exactly that in some keyboard works in the Well Tempered Clavier. Obviously a sensitive organist would not go out of their way to perform the Toccata and Fugue in F Major on a pedal harpsichord but they could! The piece would only be slightly diminished for not having the infinite sustain of a real pipe organ keeping the pedal point strong. By the way, Jon, it is a mistake to continually infer that the chief departure between organs (digital or pipe) and other instruments is that only the organs have pedals. No, in reality the chief characteristic that sets organs apart is the infinite sustain of the organs design. And possibility the ability to change sounds. Well appointed harpsichords have 8' and 4' 'stops' and modern keyboards have very authentic organ 'patches'. The lines are now sufficiently blurred to make distinctions largely moot. Even in Bach's time the serious organ student expected to have to walk to their neighborhood parish to get keyboard time in if they had to work on their pedal technique.

[jonmyrlebailey]

I doubt pedal harpsichords (or clavichords) were constructed especially for home organ practice. They obviously could be used as such by the one or two individuals wealthy enough to have one in their homes in each burg of a particular region. More often they simply served as a non-winded analogue to pipe organs as a cheaper substitute or simply as a different voice altogether. Long pedal points didn't stop Bach from writing exactly that in some keyboard works in the Well Tempered Clavier. Obviously a sensitive organist would not go out of their way to perform the Toccata and Fugue in F Major on a pedal harpsichord but they could! The piece would only be slightly diminished for not having the infinite sustain of a real pipe organ keeping the pedal point strong. By the way, Jon, it is a mistake to continually infer that the chief departure between organs (digital or pipe) and other instruments is that only the organs have pedals. No, in reality the chief characteristic that sets organs apart is the infinite sustain of the organs design. And possibility the ability to change sounds. Well appointed harpsichords have 8' and 4' 'stops' and modern keyboards have very authentic organ 'patches'. The lines are now sufficiently blurred to make distinctions largely moot. Even in Bach's time the serious organ student expected to have to walk to their neighborhood parish to get keyboard time in if they had to work on their pedal technique.

Occasionally, I do like the voicing better of a pedal harpsichord for certain Bach organ works. Namely, Trio Sonata No. 4 in E minor BWV 528 as performed by E Power Biggs in his Six Trio Sonatas album. The voicing is light and crisp and it seems to do well for trio sonata forms. Bach's toccatas, fantasias and fugues do carry much better on organ. I liked two of the Six Trio Sonatas on organ performed by Biggs but I can't find recordings of these anymore: No. 5 in C Major and No. 1 in E-Flat Major.

[andyg]

I would want an instrument to practice various genres:

-classical, Baroque, Romantic
-church, hymn
-jazz
-rock
-pop
-Latin
-soul
-gospel
-funk
-blues
-boogie-woogie
-ragtime
-marching band, Americana
-folk

That's a heck of a list, much of it way removed from what you've talked about elsewhere in the thread. I can do all of that on my organ, and a lot more besides. In fact there are few organs that can switch from Bach to Bacharach, visiting gospel, blues and funk on the way. Of course, it's all very well having an instrument that can do this, the organist has to be able to play in all those genres as well as knowing how to get the instrument to do what they want.

I'm lucky, I have a Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum. It 'only' has 25 pedals and is technically missing the lowest octave on the upper of its two manuals (Great and Swell have no meaning since every sound can be played everywhere). So there are some limitations, but they can be worked around for the most part. Other organs that I can think of that can do the chameleon-like changes required by that list would be Bohm and Wersi. And that's probably about it. All belong to the 'stupidly expensive' category, though the Rolands of the generation previous to mine have dropped down in price on the used market.

[Hiawatha]

Do people really not understand the compositional process? For one thing, there wouldn't be time to "write something down and try it out on the organ." That's not how composers (at least competent ones work (ed)). The process of composition was more like taking dictation of ideas basically what were called, "commonplaces of invention." I'm always bewildered by those who are amazed that Mozart was taking dictation on what he had composed in his head. This was nothing out of the ordinary. I think the Jessie Ann Owen's book "Composers at Work" covers this. What was surprising, even to me, was that composers such as Isaac didn't compose in full score, rather, he was somehow able to compose individual parts without the benefit of seeing everything at once. So, no, the pedal harpsichords were not used really for practice or composing. From what I understood an organist at Bach's level in the 18th century simply didn't have time to practice anyway. It's not like he's playing Dupre or something.

[myorgan]

Hiawatha,

Finally, someone who understands that. I used to share the final scene from Amadeus to help students understand how real composers can actually hear everything in their head, and transcribe it on paper that way. Imagine what a Mozart of Bach could do with a computer notation program of today!!!

Michael

[Muzikman1985]

Check out a Nord C2D. You can hook pedals up to it and it has Hammond organ and pipe.organ sounds. If you want all the extra sounds you would need an external module maybe the Roland Integra. It would be a frankenorgan but it would cover pretty much all the styles you asked for

[farnsy]

61-key MIDI controllers or keyboards with basic organ sounds are abundant and cheap. They are serviceable for basic organ practice. However, the only ways to get a good pedalboard for organ practice are to (1) modify one from an old organ or from scratch or (2) pay a decent amount of money for a premade one. They are not particularly common as a stand-alone item because not that many people need them.

If you really want to practice organ, probably the cheapest thing to do is buy an organ. As has been noted, the organ market collapsed a few decades ago, so organs purchased on craigslist or similar sell for almost nothing in some cases. Many organs are owned by senior citizens and when they pass, their heirs are just eager to get rid of them. Churches looking to upgrade are in a similar situation. Something super cheap will not have the greatest sounds, but this thread is about finding a cheap practice solution, right? If you want to know what organ works perfectly, has cutting edge sounds, and doesn't require tinkering, that's a different question.