How common are organs that can't fit through a standard door?

[farnsy]

I was in talks to buy a Rodgers 990 until I realized it is 40 inches deep and I just measured my doorway at 35 at its narrowest. I consider my door a pretty standard size (the door itself is 36 inches across). Even if I strip away the entire frame, assuming that's reasonably possible, the brick itself is right at 40 inches. I'm kind of blown away that any product would be created that doesn't have a way to fit through a standard door. I know big organs were intended for churches and other institutions, but aren't there some places you would like a big organ that don't have double doors?

Anyway, as I look at a number of alternative organs, I'm wondering how common this situation is. Do I need to ask for a measurement of every organ I'm considering before anything else, or is this 990 a rare exception to an industry that normally takes into account door size? For example, I'm looking at an Allen MDS 38 (3m). I didn't even think to ask whether it will fit through the door (I will next time we talk).

[SchnarrHorn]

As I mentioned in the "Anyone ever get a used organ for home" post, an organ placed on its side often presents a smaller dimension than the front to back dimension when upright. If there's enough room on either side of the doorway, the console can be hooked through the door when on its side. (Trim and perhaps door frame might still have to be removed.) Sometimes, doing this will get you into the front door but you'll still be stuck if you want to have the organ in a bedroom, if the interior doors are much smaller.

When I bought my basic model Allen (don't recall the model; would have to look it up) in the mid-80's, the movers placed the organ on its side and hooked it through the front door without having to remove any trim. That got it to the living room, where it had to stay. Spare bedroom doorway was too small. When I traded it in for my MDS-65, I was in a bind because it wouldn't fit. I had to pay Allen a pretty penny for a split console. Allen's woodworkers did a fantastic job with it and the problem was solved.

George

[myorgan]

I was in talks to buy a Rodgers 990 until I realized it is 40 inches deep and I just measured my doorway at 35 at its narrowest. I consider my door a pretty standard size (the door itself is 36 inches across). Even if I strip away the entire frame, assuming that's reasonably possible, the brick itself is right at 40 inches. I'm kind of blown away that any product would be created that doesn't have a way to fit through a standard door. I know big organs were intended for churches and other institutions, but aren't there some places you would like a big organ that don't have double doors?

The issue you describe is quite common. I believe most manufacturers of larger organs never envisioned their installation in a private residence, therefore, size wasn't an issue.

You'll notice that some of today's manufacturers (i.e. Johannus, Viscount, etc.) are beginning to design 3-manual organs that will fit through a door like yours. In my case, I am using a garage, so the door is always large enough, and it's relatively easy to load up an organ in the trailer for temporary setup in a performing venue.

Meanwhile, maybe we could start a thread on moving techniques similar to, and in addition to those already mentioned.

Michael

[michaelhoddy]

Someone else can chime in with the exact dimensions, but the MDS-38 was Allen's entry into the "small 3-manual with 32' stop" category, for which one of the intended uses was home practice. So I'm sure it's intended to fit through a 36" door.

The big consoles like the Rodgers 9xx series and the large Allen digitals, with their large batteries of speakers, were never envisioned for use in anything other than a large church building that would inevitably have double doors, so the smaller console wasn't a requirement. In the case of the 990, it's so jam-packed with electronics that a smaller console wouldn't have even been possible.

[johnbeetem]

Back in the mainframe years, IBM referred to "FTD technology", meaning a mainframe that could "Fit Through Doors". This usually meant double doors. But that's better than having to cut a hole in an exterior wall and bring in the mainframe using a crane. When a computer cost millions of dollars, it was not unreasonable to expect the customer to spend a hundred thousand on remodeling: custom doors, raised floor, lots of 220V electricity (sometimes three-phase), water cooling, etc. At least you didn't have to worry about someone stealing it.

I have a Rodgers Trio 321C "Home Theatre Organ". "Home" means it has a 7/8 width pedal board so the console is narrower than a full-size AGO. It's also "lighter": 540 pounds without the pedal board. I moved my Trio from the garage to my finished basement. The basement stairs are narrow and have a 45 degree elbow half way down. The basement door is off a narrow hallway next to the kitchen. I had just finished moving in so I had lots of extra packing boxes. I used some of these to build a full-size mock-up of the Trio to make sure I could get it to the stairs and down them. I had to remove the basement door, bannisters, and a light fixture. The Trio fit with less than an inch to spare.

[myorgan]

John,

Funny you should mention mainframes. In the prison system where I worked, the new metal detector wouldn't fit through the doors. So either the metal detector needed to be taken apart to fit in through the existing doors, or the prison wall needed to be removed to bring it in. I'm not at liberty to say which yielded to the other, but it was quite an education, to be sure!

Michael

[Larrytow]

I suppose because I have never played a Rodgers TO, I had no idea that there was yet another variation for 32 note pedalboards. " I have a Rodgers Trio 321C "Home Theatre Organ". "Home" means it has a 7/8 width pedal board so the console is narrower than a full-size AGO." That is an interesting bit of info there. But really, how much space is saved at 7/8ths of full size ? Seems like more trouble to build, for not much of a difference ?

[toodles]

With Rodgers analog organs, except for the 990 and the 330, most will fit through a 36 inch opening--which is a tight squeeze for a 36 inch door. The MDS-38 will definitely fit through a 36 inch doorway.

The largest Allen consoles are, I think, 42 inches, and the most common of their consoles will fit through a 36 inch opening.

There are ways to work around shoe-horning consoles into a small opening such as angling through the opening for the first part of the console, then rotating around the central console area (with manuals raised as for servicing) and putting the organ on its side and angling through and rotating. But you have to have accurate measurements of the consoles to approach this. I would not try to do either with a 990 or 330 because of their weight.

[myorgan]

Toodles,

Was the 660 of the same dimensions or smaller? I'm thinking of NYCFarmboy's 660.

Michael

[Organkeys Jones]

The Allen "F" Console (ADC 9000, 9300, Custom 4 Manual MDS, probably others) is 46 1/8" deep, front to back.

[farnsy]

Interesting stuff, folks. Thanks! I used the internet archives way back machine to check Allen's site from 1997 and they had the MDS 39 at 32 inches so I'm sure the 38 is good too. I'm going to have to use that site more often.

Also glad to learn about hooking the organ in sideways and potentially separating into two pieces. Probably no good for the 990 but for other organs that are on the large size this could be useful info. Sorry to be such a noob.

I wish the home organ market was bigger so we could have more new products designed and priced for us. But thankfully we have a good community of very helpful people.

[davidecasteel]

When planning on hooking the instrument through a doorway on its side, it may help to use a big piece of cardboard cut to mimic the shape of the organ's side panel and see if that will make the turn OK.

[twnelson]

Toodles,

Was the 660 of the same dimensions or smaller? I'm thinking of NYCFarmboy's 660.

Michael

The 660 DK console is exactly 36" deep at the widest point, although the top has a 1/4" additional overhang on the rear, requiring it to be either unscrewed and shifted forward or removed.

--- Tom

[Larrytow]

It sounds like the 35" console will fit though your door opening, but it may take a bit of effort to take the door framing apart and put it back together. If your door is 36" wide, and IT obviously fits in the opening, then a 35" console will go though. Tight squeeze of course, but as long as you don't need to turn the console as it goes though the opening, it will work.

On a lot of consoles ( I'm not sure on a Rodgers though ) the top overhangs the back side by an inch or more. If that is so, taking the top lid off the console will gain some extra clearance.

While tipping consoles on end and walking them through works nicely a lot of times, I try to avoid having to do that as much as I can. Not so much because of it affecting the organ really, but because of the effort involved in tipping up, and then back down. Getting too old to want to do that very often !

Another thing to consider is how much you want a particular organ in your home. For me, I own several organs that are large, heavy, odd shaped, and sorta delicate, that I do want in my home. Because of that, I have remodeled a couple of homes now with easily removable door frames ( or parts of them ). In my current home I made a wall section into a hinged panel where I essentially open a hunk of the wall to move an organ in or out. I understand that not everyone is nearly as crazy as I am, so that is not a recommendation that you do similar. Non conventional. unusual, strange, and so on, that having a hunk of wall as a door might be to some people, I'm just fine with it. And....when I do come across a nice 4 manual drawknob Allen in a C console, I know it will go right in !

[Bodie]

When I got my C3 home I was excited then it raised questions. It was 1/2" too wide for my house doors. I had to take the external door off just to get that extra space, my internal door was again a tad too small so I had to cut off some architrave. I found the squareness of the C3 also meant I couldn't tip it to gain a narrower profile. It has like a skirtingboard at the rear lower edge, that was the extra pesky 1/2".

[Larrytow]

I have no idea what "architraves" are, but I'm thinking that " skirtingboards" are wood trim pieces. Or wall moldings, trim boards, and a bunch of other names. They could be on the bottom rear of the console, or at the floor / wall joint.

[RogerM]

An architrave is the moulding around a doorway, I suppose doorframe in simple English. A skirting is the wooden or tile border fixed round the base of an interior wall to protect it from kicks and to disguise the joint between wall and floor. A skirtingboard is a skirting made of wood, I believe known in the US as a mopboard.

As Bodie's skirtingboard is apparently on the organ, it is presumably a board affixed to the bottom of the console. He says on the rear lower edge, so perhaps to keep the main body of the console an inch or so away from any wall against which it might be placed?

[myorgan]

Thank you both. I figured out the skirtingboard was the bottom trim to the wall or instrument, but I didn't know if the other was referring to door trim or a chair rail or the like. I've grown up speaking American, so sometimes I miss the finer points of the English language.

Thanks all.

Michael

[Larrytow]

RogerM Yes, you are right about a Hammond having it on the bottom of the console. The A105 has it, so I'd figure that the C3 would also. But it also extends around the sides, and probably is a mitered corner joint. So just taking the rear piece off would not reduce the depth of the console, without taking the side pieces off as well.

Unless that was the Only way to make it fit, I would look to taking more of the door frame apart instead.

[RogerM]

Thanks, Larry. That's a perfect illustration of what I had in mind.

[Bodie]

Yes Larry you're right, my skirting board is that piece below the white lead in your photo and also correct it's mitered, that's what got me. The rear skirting board did come off but left the pokey out mitres! My plan was foiled. Architrave is like an inner wood trim that butts up agains the door face, mounted inside the door frame. I cut out a section about 6" up from the floor to accomodate the pokey out mitre pieces. My C3 is 29 3/4" front to back (inc rear lower edge) - my doorframe/architrave opening is 29"

[Larrytow]

Bodie

Ya, we organ folks have to sometimes modify the house to make organs fit. I'm OK with that idea, but I'm sure many folks are not. If I want a particular organ in my house, it WILL go in, one way or another.

When you did the cutout, if you did it nicely, it should go back where it came from. But don't nail it back in. If you screw it back in place, you can remove it easily when the time comes to get the organ though the door again.

I did the same thing with a previous home, but needed to go up higher than floor level. I had to get a 35 &1/2" deep console though a 32" opening. I found it real nice to have that removable section already there when the day came to move all my organs to my new place.