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  • Allen TC-3S Help

    Hello!

    I recently procured an Allen TC-3S for my home practice organ (I’m pretty excited!) HOWEVER, the person who removed it from the church it was in neglected to take any notes, pictures, or info of any kind as to wiring up the speakers. Is there any guides, or user manuals that can help with this? It came with four speaker cabinets (including a rotary speaker) but I can’t seem to get anything to plug in right. I’m worried about blowing an amp, so I could use help!

    thanks all!
    Last edited by myorgan; 08-15-2020, 06:52 PM.
    the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

    baldwin studio II
    hammond N300
    and a nice pair of holton french horns

  • #2
    You probably have a TC- 3S, not 35. Very fine model. Hookup of the externals can vary. Pictures of the inside console floor and inside of the speaker cabinets will help us help you. Any chance the cables at the console end were left connected? I usually leave then connected and roll them up inside for transport.

    Comment


    • #3
      Member Silken Path (Lamar) is one of our resident experts, as he has procured a couple of TC-4 organs, and has helped many in re-connecting their instruments (including the TC-3S). Related threads can be found here:Hopefully, that will provide informative reading for you until others weigh in. Meanwhile, I'll change the title of the thread to the correct designation for the organ.

      Michael
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi, Nof-Z.

        If you could post a picture of the back of the gyro that shows the gyro control and any amp in the gyro, and the back of the other speakers, and a detail shot of the floor of the organ where the gyro or gyro/power terminal strips are, that would helpful in determining how it is supposed to hook up. I can help some, but Allen made these organs for a LONG time and they were mainly custom made for the customer. Thank goodness that they followed a common color code on the wiring. Please don't try to power the gyro until we determine the connections, and the service manual says that the T-50 amplifiers that were used can tolerate running with no load, but a dead short will blow the output transistors.

        Also, did you get all the cables? Are they color coded?

        And a TC-3S... cool beans. I'd like to have one, but I'm sort of looking for a three-manual TC. They have the same tech in them, and I'd like to MIDI one before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

        As for manuals, somebody on eBay is selling small sections from the Analog Service Manual and it's good to have the "Training Primer" and the "Technician's Pocket Guide." Allen WILL come and work on this organ if you call them. They theoretically can repair any Allen organ ever made. I have not tested this claim. If you contact Allen on their website and leave your information and your organ's model and serial number, they will tell you when it was made, and then your friendly local Allen dealer will call you and welcome you to the fold. If you buy from that guy on Amazon, you need the TC-1 section AND the TC-3 section. Curiously, all of these organs were variations on a theme, and that theme was the TC-1. I have a '59 that was equipped with three gyros (but I didn't get any of them).

        I'm glad that you're excited. These were quality machines and they can outlive us all.
        -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
        -- 5 melodicas, Rodgers W5000, RD300NX, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3 - Hauptwerk
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello all! Thank you for your help. I will post pictures tomorrow. My main problem is actually figuring out where to plug the wires inside of the cabinets themselves. It did come with all the cables, however there appear to be some connections missing from the outputs in the amplifiers. Anyway, pictures are coming tomorrow!
          the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

          baldwin studio II
          hammond N300
          and a nice pair of holton french horns

          Comment


          • myorgan
            myorgan commented
            Editing a comment
            Nof-z,

            Following the links I provided above will supply you with MANY pictures (especially the first link).

            Michael

        • #6
          Sounds good! The mobile version won’t let me post pictures, so I am working on getting them uploaded... my main question is where dos the second brown wire bundle go? I know one of them goes to the gyro (that one was actually marked!) but I have no idea where the second one goes yet. Also, I still need to reattach the speakers to the amp, most of them aren’t even connected.... where do I put the output to the gyro speakers?
          the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

          baldwin studio II
          hammond N300
          and a nice pair of holton french horns

          Comment


          • Admin
            Admin commented
            Editing a comment
            There's no restriction on posting pictures from the mobile version. There is a restriction on the file size and dimensions that you can upload to Forum in general and most phone cameras today exceed both with their default settings. Open your picture editor and resize per the following FAQ entry:
            https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...ge-media-sizes

            BTW, the mobile version of the app and desktop version of the app are exactly the same program.

        • #7
          the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

          baldwin studio II
          hammond N300
          and a nice pair of holton french horns

          Comment


          • #8
            the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

            baldwin studio II
            hammond N300
            and a nice pair of holton french horns

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              In this set of photos, the 2nd is duplicated below. The 3rd photo looks like antiphonal relays where the sound would be sent to a 2nd set of speakers (i.e. for a choir or antiphonal set of speakers). The first photo appears to be missing an input signal. The last photo worries me. It appears it is the power supply for the rotaty motor, and a control for the speed of the rotary speaker, however, the wires that are cut on the right are worrisome. That said, I don't know what they are connected to, but something is definitely missing there. It may be the power supply.

              Michael

          • #9
            Here they are. This is as large as I can make them and still have it upload. Thank you for the image Posting help!!!
            the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

            baldwin studio II
            hammond N300
            and a nice pair of holton french horns

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              In your 1st and 3rd photos, it appears the device on the side of the rotary speaker cabinet is where you connect. The device appears to have a HI and LO setting (I would assume is the speed of the speaker), and on the left (bottom 2 terminals) you have the Common and Amp inputs for the sound. Please wait for confirmation from Lamar before testing this theory.

              Michael

          • #10
            I know where The cut wires go to, I just need to put them back together. I think I have almost all of t figured out, except there the final brown wire (shown in the new picture) goes, and what to connect to the amp outputs where I have nothing connected to them yet.
            the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

            baldwin studio II
            hammond N300
            and a nice pair of holton french horns

            Comment


            • Silken Path
              Silken Path commented
              Editing a comment
              I think that's a gyro control, and that's why I wondered if it had two gyros. You'd have two controls on the panel if it did. I'm not sure that you have it correct on the cross-over mounted on the side of the gyro. Please check that it matches up with my photo below before you apply power.

          • #11
            Click image for larger version

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            All right - thank you, Nof-Z.

            The device hanging on the side of the gyro is a crossover. It can handle one, two, or three speakers and provide the same signal to the entire channel stack. The gyro may have been bolted to a bass-speaker, and the sweet sixteen speaker likely set atop it, so that would have provided the the flute channel. Let me go look. The label has fallen off of mine, but there's a photo above that should help. I think you can click it and make it larger. If that doesn't work, PM me and I'll email the full-size version. I kept all the excess length in my cables, and the coil is sitting in the upper speaker. That's why the brown cable seems to be coming from the top instead of the bottom.

            It has Whind - simulated pipe organ wind sounds and electronic tremolo. That's the black box and the left on the organ floor. This will also provide the keying voltage for the organ. That's the RED cable, and I do see it going to the left. Good.

            With any luck the other speaker wires should be brown, too.

            The coaxial cables, like the one with aluminum foil (I hesitate to think what that may be covering) are used for amps on these organs. (The signal is not as high as modern stuff, and it had something to do with keeping the signal balanced or standing waves or some such.) Anyway, the standard amps have thread connectors. These "Jerrold" connectors are obsolete, very easy to cross-thread, and very hard to find. Due care. Anyway, the other end of those terminals the speakers attach to should go straight to the pedal(s).

            That 110-volt junction box should go to the gyro and the Whind/tremolo.

            Foo on them for snipping the gyro control wire. At least they left enough to connect to. Could we get a picture with the plastic cover that cover the wires go to removed so we can see the organ side wire colors? Also, do you have the cable that was cut that goes to the gyro control? That's the four-conductor plug on the gyro. I'm glad you still have that plug.

            I'm curious about what I'm looking at. Did it have two gyros?

            Nof-Z, I think you'll be finding out if it oscillates pretty soon.








            -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
            -- 5 melodicas, Rodgers W5000, RD300NX, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3 - Hauptwerk
            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

            Comment


            • #12
              I do still have the cable, and it’s already attached. I am getting on splicing the cables now. All coax’s are plugged in now, and all stops are sounding! My only loose wire now is a second wire, like the one that connects to the gyro speaker. It only has one gyro, however it has stationary speakers underneath them as well.
              the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

              baldwin studio II
              hammond N300
              and a nice pair of holton french horns

              Comment


              • #13
                Cool. I have no experience with antiphonals - my organ had them, but I didn't get the hardware with them. Hmm... that might be what they were using that cable for. In fact, my organ does have the top terminals labeled for antiphonals, and I've thought about using them for other purposes. Nof-Z if you have the controls for the antiphonals in the tabs, you could also use those for anything you want to...

                Are ALL the speakers sounding? I guess you found out that Hi-Lo refers to the speaker on top and the speaker below in the stack.

                When you get the gyro spliced in, it should idle, stop, and spin high. You should put a little machine oil in the cups on the bearings of the gyro - drip, drip only.

                Old Allens are for folks that love DUST.

                Just as a general notion, I'm amazed that 50-watts amplifiers could fill a decent-sized church with these speakers. Oh, and this is a very deluxe organ. A lot of folks playing them only have the gyro for tremolo, and I've heard folks complain that it's "so far away." Hey, the electronic trem is JUST as far way.

                Watched your video with the church organ. You have a fine singing voice as well.
                -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                -- 5 melodicas, Rodgers W5000, RD300NX, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3 - Hauptwerk
                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                Comment


                • #14
                  And Nof-Z, make sure that your connections at the cross-over are the same as in the picture. You can get them mixed up and they will still sort of work, but you won't be hearing all the speakers. If you're curious, I have a picture in my TC-4 thread that shows the bottom of it. It's pretty simple.

                  Also, I read that the 3S can have setter boards and active tabs. Does it have that?
                  Last edited by Silken Path; 08-16-2020, 06:21 PM.
                  -- I'm Lamar -- Allen TC-4 Classic project, 1899 Kimball project
                  -- 5 melodicas, Rodgers W5000, RD300NX, Juno DS-61/88, FA-06 - Conn 643 - Hammond M3 - Hauptwerk
                  -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                  Comment


                  • Silken Path
                    Silken Path commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks. I was looking at some tech data that said the setterboard was optional. I've been wondering if "S" means special.

                  • myorgan
                    myorgan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Or it stands for setterboard.

                    Michael

                  • Silken Path
                    Silken Path commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Or it stands for nothing in particular and Allen thought it sounded sexy. But seriously, service bulletin 012-1002 shows "Optional Setterboard Type Pistons." I have too many projects now, but looking at that circuit diagram suggests to me that one could use some modern tech to make a LOT more presets using part of the system and theory.

                • #15
                  Thank you, I was just doing my job, haha. Yes, it has active tabs (they are almost as loud as old electro-pneumatics) and you can adjust the combos as you want. It even has a key lock! I now have everything working! (Except the gyro, I’ll have to dig in that move later,) however all speakers and stops are sounding! Now to clean up my mess of wire ends, spilled solder, and dust!
                  the head of music at mellophoneman100 (you tube)

                  baldwin studio II
                  hammond N300
                  and a nice pair of holton french horns

                  Comment

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