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  • Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



    Hello once again. I was sort of talked out of getting a Monarke johannus organ and turning my organ to midi and using hauptwerk to play digital organs. I have a 1968 Rodgers 22B. 2 manual n pedals. I would like to know what is the easiest way to add midi to the manuals and pedals. Is there some system that just connects to the back of the manuals and pedals that is like a "plug in and play" type thing? </p>

    PLEASE, PLEASE help me from saving many, many thousands of dollars on a new digital organ!!!!!!!</p>

  • #2
    Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



    Brandon,</P>


    I would refer you to the following threads on this forum:</P>
    <UL>
    <LI>http://organforum.com/forums/thread/41912.aspx</LI>
    <LI>http://organforum.com/forums/thread/46208.aspx</LI>
    <LI>http://organforum.com/forums/thread/48141.aspx</LI>[/list]


    Perhaps help is no further than the search bar at the top of your screen? I just type in "add MIDI" and clicked Search, and these threads were there, just staring me in the baby hazels!</P>


    Good luck with your search.</P>


    Michael</P>
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



      DELETED--Duplicate post because of this site's #@%^&amp; SOFTWARE!!!
      Grrrr. Took over 6 minutes of churning before it would post!</p>

      Sorry for the soapbox display!</p>
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



        There are a wide variety of options for converting your 22B to midi.  All of them will require some work.  It depends on how comfortable you feel with a soldering iron, ribbon cable, and the like.  And how much $$ you want to spend.  If you have enough to spend, you can probably find someone to do the work if you don't want to tackle it yourself -- it isn't rocket science, just repetitive :)</p>

        On my Rodgers 750BE, I replaced the Rodgers keyboards with plug-and-play keyboards from Midiworks (better feel) with keycheeks from Hoppe (via http://milandigitalaudio.com), and used a midiworks midi encoder (MKSC-4a) to convert the pedals, toe studs and swell pedals-- which required a good bit of rewiring.  (Http://www.midiworks.ca).  But you can also use your existing keyboards with either a 64 point encoder or a 4x8 matrix encoder.  There is no way to just "plug in" your existing keyboards/pedalboard to a midi gadget.</p>

        I'm in the process of modifying my console to support a third manual and some other things and then the console will be complete. (Thanks to Rodgers, and the way the console was built, this turns out to be relatively straightforward).  </p>

        Some may think that an organ console with a couple of 17" touch screen displays replacing stop jams is a bit of a "science project", but frankly, once you're playing the Metz or the Zwolle, or many other excellent sample sets, you'll forget about that "deficiency" quickly.  And HW will support a fully mechanical console with movable drawknobs, if that's where you want to go.</p>

        Since I can't afford to have M&amp;O come in and duplicate the Trinity organ in my house, Hauptwerk is about as good an option as it gets, for far less money than anything even remotely equivalent. </p>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



          so I think I will go with the easiest solution.==Artisan micro midi!!!!!!!!! I just need a very short description of how it works. Is there going to have to be any cutting, soldering, or rewireing? (can you explain what will have to happen to the manuals, and pedals to connect it? </p>

          Ok. what do I need to run a good hauptwerk. I am thinking of getting the Notre Dam De Metz organ.</p>

          1) I have a 2007 Emachines Desk top PC/////////. it says Intel Celeron D.//////////Also says "grafics by ATI radeon xpress 200. //////////Processor 352= 3.20 GHz. //////// Hard drive=120/////// GB Memory 512 MB</p>

          2) is this enough for the organ set?</p>

          3) what would the entire bill of the micro midi cost me? </p>


          </p>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



            Brandon,</P>


            You may wish to visit Hauptwerk's website (http://www.crumhorn-labs.com/). When you do, consider that the British pound right now is approximatley twice (or more) the American dollar. That means that 200 British Pounds will be $400 American dollars--not to mention International shipping.</P>


            The sample sets are sold by various re-sellers, and I seem to remember prices somewhere between $500-$900, depending on the sample set you purchase. The word "sample" refers to tone samples rather than free samples of organ sounds.</P>


            Your PC should have enough processor to run Hauptwerk, however, I just upgraded the RAM on my eMachines computer because it only came with 256k (eMachines shipped their computers with far too little RAM). I purchased 2GB of RAM for just over $100 at Worst Buy (aka Best Buy). Unless I'm mistaken, the eMachines uses DDR memory and has a limit of 2GB upgrade capacity. You'll have to remove the current RAM if you purchase 2 chips. Unlike SIMMS, the DDR does not have to be replaced in pairs.</P>


            Good luck!</P>


            Hope this helps.</P>


            Michael</P>
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



              Brandon,</P>


              Two things come to mind. Hauptwerk is quite expensive, as already noted. You'll sink several hundred dollars into it right away, and you will need a more powerful computer. A Celeron won't do, and you'll need at least 2 gigs of RAM, preferably 4. A freeware program called "jOrgan" can work on a much less powerful computer and can produce incredibly good sounds, but requires much more programming and planning.</P>


              I used jOrgan to supplement the stops on our old analog Rodgers at churchfor a couple of years before we replaced it. The jOrgan stops were far superior to the Rodgers analog sounds, but I kept the analog stops working because I had onlyput MIDI on onemanual of the old organ.</P>


              OuroldRodgerswas a model 660. The 22B you have is very close in age and technology to our 660, so I'd think putting MIDI on it would be about as easy. You only have to connect your MIDI adapter directly to the Rodgers key contacts.</P>


              You'd need to determine whether your organ keys with +12 volts, -12 volts, or ground. Rodgers has used all three, and I'm not sure which you'll find. You can determine this by using a volt meter to measure the voltage present on the keying rods under the manual keys.Clip the black lead of your meterto a ground point (such as the metal chassis of the power supply) and touch the red lead to the keying buss, with the organ powered up. You'll probably read either +12 volts or -12 volts. If you read nothing at all, then the keying busses are ground. If you believe you have ground keying, then turn the organ off and verify this by checking to see if there is not more than a couple of ohms resistance between the keying buses and the metal chassis of the power supply.</P>


              Then you'll need to buy a MIDI encoder that will accept the key-down information from the key contacts. Specify whether your organ uses +12, -12, or ground keying.</P>


              Then connect the ribbon cables that will come with the encoder to the key contacts by soldering each ribbonwire to the proper contact wire. Be careful when doing this as the Rodgers wires will only be "touch" soldered in place and will want to come off when you heat the drop of solder to add your new wire.</P>


              The MIDI encoder will, of course, come with instructions about how to do this, but what I've told you should serve as a guide.</P>


              John</P>
              <P mce_keep="true"></P>
              John
              ----------
              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!

                [quote user="Brandon Tuomikoski"]

                so I think I will go with the easiest solution.==Artisan micro midi!!!!!!!!! I just need a very short description of how it works. Is there going to have to be any cutting, soldering, or rewireing? (can you explain what will have to happen to the manuals, and pedals to connect it?[/quote]</p>

                I don't have a midi vendor preference (as I said earlier, there are many good ones), but I suspect that the Artisan system may not be the "easiest".  You can do an entire 2 manual + pedal + expression instrument with 3 boards that all connect via midi.  Look at midiworks.ca, and midiboutique.com.  Midiboutique is in Bulgaria, but a lot of HW users use them, and even at the current exchange rates they're economical and the product and related service is good.</p>

                Yes, there will be cutting, soldering and rewiring.  You must connect each individual key contact to the midi input boards, plus a common line that runs through all of them.  This has to be done for each manual, for the pedalboard, and for any pistons and/or stop keys you want to use (you really don't need the stop tabs, but the pistons will be a good thing).  And the whole thing needs a good PLAN -- it isn't just a willy nilly thing :)</p>

                And you also have to disconnect all of the existing internals before you can hook up the new stuff.  Well, you don't have to, but there's really no reason to keep them, and not doing so just makes things more difficult. </p>

                 
                Ok. what do I need to run a good hauptwerk. I am thinking of getting the Notre Dam De Metz organ.
                .</p>

                To do the Metz justice you need a fast dual core machine at least with ( at a bare minimum) 4G or ram, better 8G -- but the latter requires XP x64 or Vista x64.  Look at the system recommendations on the Hauptwerk website.  And also look at the recommendations for audio cards.  Also, DO subscribe to and join the Hauptwerk forums.  Everyone there was a beginner once, and there's a wealth of help and lots of good information available to get you started.</p>

                1) I have a 2007 Emachines Desk top PC/////////. it says Intel Celeron D.//////////Also says "grafics by ATI radeon xpress 200. //////////Processor 352=  3.20 GHz. //////// Hard drive=120/////// GB Memory 512 MB</p>

                2) is this enough for the organ set?
                </p>

                No.  You have to have 4G of ram.  Ultimately you'll need a bigger hard drive.  The graphics card doesn't matter much, although for the Metz it's good to have one that supports dual screens.  The CPU will limit the level of polyphony, and that Celeron won't be enough.  Polyphony, in the HW definition, is any part of any loop playing -- and every pipe of every stop is a separate loop segment, and with the relatively long reverb time in the Metz acoustic environment, you can chew up polyphony quickly.</p>

                Think Core 2 Duo at least 2.6Ghz, 4G ram, 250G hard drive, plus a GOOD professional quality sound card, not an Xfi blaster thing or something of that ilk.</p>

                3) what would the entire bill of the micro midi cost me?
                </p>

                 It depends :)  A good HW PC will run around $3K retail, already built, with an M-Audio 1212M audio card.  You can probably do ok for around $5-6k total since you already have the console. There's the cost of HW, sample sets,  the midi system, and at least one touch-screen display. And then there's the audio system itself, but a set of good headphones gives surprisingly satisfying results. </p>


                </p>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



                  I've just come across a program called Pianoteq, which rather than playing back sampled sounds instead uses modelling to produce the sound. I've only downloaded the demo so far, but I'm very impressed with the sound and moreover it only occupies 20-odd MB of HDD space and can be run on a modest computer. Its also RTAS and VST compatible.
                  </p>

                  What has put me off Hauptwerk is the need for a fairly high spec low latency computer (and of course the very expensive cost of the software and sound sets).
                  </p>

                  Are there any programs similar to Pianoteq which do the same thing for organs, in that rather than using sampling it uses modelling hence requiring a less powerful PC and using fewer resources?</p>

                  http://www.pianoteq.com/index </p>

                  Whilst you are there, have a listen to some of the recordings that have been made using Pianoteq...</p>

                  http://www.pianoteq.com/audiodemos
                  </p>
                  1971 Allen Organ TC-3S (#42904) w/sequential capture system.
                  Speakers: x1 Model 100 Gyro, x1 Model 105 & x3 Model 108.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



                    Hi, I thought I'd chime in on this thread. First off, props to Grant for taking the time to answer some of these Hauptwerk questions. I would definitely second his suggestion to sign up at the Hauptwerk forums, lots of people there willing to help. Brandon, you will need a new computer to be able to really play the Metz "the way it was meant to be played". To load the entire sample set with multiple loops and release samples at 16-bit resolution, you will need 8GB of ram. These features aren't gimmicks either, in my humble opinion, they make signifigant contributions to the overall realism of the organ. I also think the extended version of the Metz is well worth the extra $50. The extended version adds some serious punch on the top and bottom of the dynamic range which is needed to get that dream pipe organ effect on the final chords. It also fills in some gaps in the specification.</p>

                    I am also a bit confused at those who have made special mention of Hauptwerk being expensive. Yes, it's expensive, if I said otherwise, my wife would have something to say about that. Now, having said that, I'd like to make the argument that from a different perspective it's really not all that expensive. Or perhaps I should say it's an excellent value for what you get. It's doesn't sound like these old digital organs I often see discussed and traded on these forums. You've gotta hear it to believe it. Think more on the level of Marshall &amp; Ogletree; when I pull out the Gt Harmonic Flute and use it in some solo combinations, I can almost feel the breath of the pipe in my face. When I play the vox humaine with trem, middle C sounds so awful and I love it because I know every pipe was sampled (vox humaine was actually sampled with and without tremulant). If I need a high pressure reed for a passage, I just give the positiv trumpet a 15 dB boost, it takes me about 4 seconds, and even less to reset it to default. Hearing the constant hum of the blower or hearing the movement of the
                    swell shades while playing gives me this buzz that's just hard to
                    describe.</p>

                    I think I've spent about $10K on my Hauptwerk setup, for that I've gotten 3 manuals with the nicest feel you're going to get for less than $10K/manual, a full 32-note AGO pedalboard. and a 50 rank instrument. Oh, and when the Bovenkerk Kampen is released later this year, for a few hundred bucks I'll have a new 4/60+ rank instrument. That's gonna run you more like $100K with Allen (and I even think this sounds better than a new quantum!). While I can agree that Hauptwerk is not cheap, I would disagree with anyone arguing that Hauptwerk is a poor value. Just my 2 cents.
                    </p>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



                      I would maybe disagree about this being better than a quantum allen. The sound may be better or even, but your not getting the great quality. Such as keys-pedals-drawknobs-CASE-swell pedals- and SO much more. But it is really cool that on Hauptwerk you can go from a Baroque Arp Schnitger to a Wurlitzer 2 manual theatre organ! </p>

                      Well you can do that on some allens, with the 6 suits now. American classic- English cathedral- French romantic- CAVAILLE COLL!!- Schlicker- Arp Schnitger. and orchestral.</p>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



                        Brandon,</p>

                        You can get a fine pipe organ console, and have it run Hauptwerk. That would increase the cost by quite a bit. Or you could use a good used console, like an old Rodgers or Allen, and retrofit it to be a MIDI console, and you could save yourself a bundle.</p>

                        In any case, and this is a personal opinion, I think the Hauptwerk setup, is more realistic sounding than an Allen Quantum. And to boot, it is more interesting if you are into historical organs and how it relates to the literature written for those organs. I think that is why so many organ enthusiasts are embracing the PC virtual pipe organ concept of Hauptwerk.</p>

                        What will also be interesting is how digital organ manufacturers are going to fight or deal with the Hauptwerk stuff. My guess is one by one they will start supplying MIDI consoles for the various platforms that are out there. Considering that the organ marketplace is in decline, and that Hauptwerk is growing by leaps and bounds, my guess is that there are going to be casualties among the manufacturers.</p>

                        Arie V</p>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



                          well just came accross a deal today that I like. (sort of my cheezey dream organ). When I first started learning about the organ, I remember seing a Baldwin 645 for sale on ebay. I WANTED IT SOOOOO BAD!!!!!!! It has 3 manuals 32 ago pedals, silent touch, SO many stops, nice console. I remeber it sold for well over $6,000. a few years ago. it had over 50 bids!!!!! </p>

                          Well I cam by one today for a low price of $1000.</p>

                          does this have midi? Is it a good organ if not?</p>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!



                            Hauptwerk does not have to be as expensive as some of the posts in this thread would suggest. The Metz sample setis one of the most expensive ones available, and because it is a large set with a lot of natural reverb (very "wet") it requires a high-end PC to run it.But there are much less expensive and less demandingsample sets available for Hauptwerkthat are fantastic. Check out the Hauptwerk website. There is alsoa less expensivebasic edition of the Hauptwerk software available, it has lower polyphony limits and doesn't support multichannel audio but works well for many (it's what I use).And you can buy a PC that will run the smaller/drier sample sets perfectly well for under $1000. So if you aren't intent on having a huge cathedral organ with dozens of audio channelsyou can build a nice Hauptwerk organfor less than you maythink.</P>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Adding midi to old organ help!!!!!!

                              This is true, if you got the Hauptwerk basic edition and used the included organ (St. Anne's), then it would be considerably cheaper than the Advanced version + Metz.

                              Comment

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