Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.

[Philip the organist]

Hi everyone,</p>

My 15th birthday is soon approaching, and my Kimball organ at home is in guarded condition. So, my wonderful parents have given me the option of either repairing it, or replacing it. </p>

It is the Stardust K600 theatre-style organ. It was given to me for free, but cost US$10,000 in 1979. It is a console model (not a spinet, thank God), 2man and 25-note radiating pedals. The 25 pedals are somewhat of an impediment for practising classical music, which is mainly what I do. But I have made do with it for the past 6 years and it has let me get good enough to play regularly in two churches, perform with small orchestras, etc. Now that I have started studying more seriously at the Eastman Community Music School, it has become harder and harder to practice on.</p>

Lately, it has started to go downhill, so currently, I have only two reliable pedal stops (the other ones off-and-on), the Accompaniment EEb ciphers whenever a stop is drawn, the Special Effects division ciphers at E, and sometimes the pedalboard below G cuts out. So right now I am left with a one-manual theatre organ to do all my practice on. </p>

Does anyone have an idea how much repair might be, and is it worth putting any money into it?</p>

Here is the next option: Replace it with an AGO-spec used classical organ. I don't really require anything new or fancy (and my parents certainly don't want to fork over $15,000 for the new Rodgers 538MD 27 or similar).
Just something reliable, not Tibia-based, and that feels like a real organ. For example, an Allen MOS-1 would suit me perfectly. I have visited and/or called all the dealers in the Rochester and Buffalo areas, and the only used Allens anyone had in the area were a $3,000 classical and a $12,000 eight-channel theatre organ in Buffalo about 70 miles from my house. They couldn't tell me anything more about the first Allen, and they didn't know the model number, but it is digital and AGO-spec. I left them my phone number because they are expecting to do some trade-ins this week, so they will call if they get anything I could use.
</p>

I tried at the Rodgers dealers, but all they had were new organs.</p>

Is $3,000 a fair price for an organ I will use for maybe 3 years before going to college (for organ), or should I wait for something lower? What is an approximate price range for a used digital with internal speakers and a classical stoplist? Or is it better to get the Kimball fixed, and fixed, and fixed again? </p>

&lt;poll&gt;</p>

Any models I should avoid? What about the Rodgers Jamestown and Columbian organs, and the Allen MDS series? Will they be bad for practice? I can live with bad sounds, as long as the specification and console design is right.

Thanks very much,</p>

As long as I am alive, the organ WILL NOT die. (at least in my house)</p>

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



I would go for the best Allen you can get with a full AGO console (not "princess" pedal board).</P>


Good luck and happy birthday!</P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Happy birthday Philip. [^]</P>


Sorry for not sticking to your poll but I have a completely different suggestion for you... $3,000 is quite a bit of money to spend on anything - especially an organ that you will only play for three years. My suggestion is to get out of the house! [:D] Seriously, one of the joys (and occasional pains) is that organists often have to go to a church to practice.</P>


While having an instrument in your living room is a nice luxury (I have one too), it can be quite fun and interesting to practice on many different instruments in their natural habitats. [:D]</P>


It would also be quite beneficial to you, in that it will build up your 'repertoire' of experience. Organists are a bitunique in that they must playsuch different instruments at each venue; the ergonomics are different, the registrationscan be vastlydifferent,stop layout and control is different - evendiffering acoustical spacescan throw you off if you are not used to playing in them. </P>


If you don't havemuch experience this can be a rather serious impediment to your development as an organist. You especially want to be prepared for anything, when it comes time for you to do your college entrance auditions.</P>


So my recommendation is to save that $3,000 for music (or lessons, or supplies); keep your home organ for those days when it may be too cold to go out. [;)] Make friends with some of your local organists, and get to know the instruments in your neighborhood. You will be glad you did.</P>

[Philip the organist]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Hello SB32,</p>

I will take to heart your advice. I think that would be a great route, however in my case, being the oldest of 11 kids and living in the suburbs (aka organless wastelands) it could be rather hard to carry out. I do get to play a variety of organs over at Eastman and that is a big joy. Will keep exploring opportunities.
</p>

[jbird604]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Philip,</P>


Congratulations and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!</P>


Looks like the poll is runningtoward "replace" and I sure wouldn't recommend fixing up a 30-year-old Kimball. It's amazing that you've gotten this much use out of it. Of course, even ifit dies completelyyou can still use it as a silent practice keyboard, but that's somewhat limiting.</P>


I see the point raised by SB32 above. Getting into a variety of churches would be wonderful, but you say you are in an area devoid of organs, so you may indeed need something to practice on at home. However, I'd agree that you might not want to sink $3,000 into one.</P>


I'd say $3,000 is a little high for a MOS-1 Allen self-contained, though the dealer may feel that he needs to get that much just to cover his delivery and setup and whatever small warranty he may offer. I'd want to get that much for one if I were re-selling it, and I'm not a dealer but a technician. However, buying such an organ from an individual you might expect to pay perhaps half that or less.</P>


A better-sounding organ than a MOS-1 self-contained would be a name-brandanalog of about the same era.You might scout around foran Allen TC-1 or TC-3, or a Rodgers analog (such as one ofthe models you mentioned, but preferably an even newer one, such as a 650 from the mid-80's). The Baldwin 625 and 626 organs are quite acceptible as well for home use.Drawback to an Allen TC would be the need for an external speaker. However, you could playone through a pair of small high-quality speakers instead of using those giant refrigerator-size cabinets that they came with.Allen TC organs are often available free for the taking. You'll even see one mentioned on this forum from time to time, and there may be some on craigslist or ebay for little or nothing.</P>


Don't know if any of this is possible for you. I know you've already tried to find a better organ for your church without success. But you may need to broaden your search a little bit, be willing to travel two or three hunded miles if necessary to pick up something that will truly suit your needs.</P>


Best of luck! Sounds like you have your hands full as the eldest in sucha large family. But you'll surely grow up to be a responsible guy and will be thankful for what you learned growing up.</P>


John</P>
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[Philip the organist]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Thanks for the encouragement, John. The dealer I visited on Sunday had two analog Allens in the showroom. One had a princess pedalboard and only 2 pedal stops so I knew that wasn't it. The other one was a 3-manual church organ which was about to be stripped of electronics and sent off to a pipe organ company for reuse of the console shell. Unfortunately they weren't going to sell it to anyone else, either. </p>

Do the TC series sound better than the Theatre Compact I have at church? Is there a separate diapason generator, or is it a flute unit organ? I can live with the church organ, but only because I play it only twice a week. If I brought an organ like that into my house, I would drive everyone nuts. Also, how much should I pay? </p>

I have very fond memories of playing a Rodgers made shortly before the switchover from analog to PDI. It was very impressive.
I will keep my eyes open for all the organs you've mentioned. Did you ever get that Rodgers PDI for your church that you mentioned somewhere else? </p>

</p>

[Brandon Tuomikoski]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Oh cool. another 14 year old organist like me! I used to have a kimball organ, untill I found out it sucked. Then I got a Rodgers 22b organ, (you can seethem in the photo section)</p>

</p>

A Rodgers Columbia or (forgot the other one you said) Are very good organs for their age. BUT if you see an MDS organ, take it over any ADC or rodgers. MDS organs are very, very good. Great tone. I almost forked 15k for a 3 manual. But then again, I <u>almost </u>did. Like I *forked* for that 1.5 mil pipe organ.</p>

</p>

Well I keep dreamin. But some day, when I win the lotto, I would build one. Now i am stuck with an old analog from the 60''s :(</p>

[nullogik]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



I've got an Allen TC-3S which is similar to what Jbird is recommending. </p>

I think getting something of this "ilk" is preferable since if you are lucky they are practically given away free by Churches (if you take it away) or for a very small value - in the low hundreds of $$$. </p>

Granted they don't sound very realistic, but who cares, as its a practice instrument (and a budget one at that) you'll want to be concentrating on getting your technique up to scratch than thinking about how realistic it sounds.
</p>

Try and plump for something that is a TC-3 or larger. I think (someone can correct me if I am wrong) but a TC-1 has a Princess pedal board which is a non-standard size and worth avoiding. TC-3 upwards have a standard AGO pedal board.</p>

Finally don't rush. Recently there has been quite a few of these instruments come on the market as they are around the age where people take them out of service. If you see one and aren't happy with it, then don't buy it. Guarenteed that another one will come a few weeks later which will be more what you want.
</p>

[Philip the organist]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Hi Brandon,</p>

I was wondering if you were on this forum. I saw your WTTrade ad on theatreorgans.com to trade the CV for a classical organ and I was wondering if that ever worked...Sounds like it did. Congratulations.
</p>

nullogik, here's a TC-3 in the state of Michigan</p>

http://cgi.ebay.com/Allen-Church-Org...QQcmdZViewItem
</p>

Shipment to NY would be one awful pain in the neck, but at $96, if the bidding doesn't go above $500, would it be worth paying the $1500 to have it shipped here? There is currently nothing listed in my area, but I haven't given up.</p>

Rodgers 750 in Houston, Texas</p>

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rodgers-Organ-Model-750_W0QQitemZ110288163931QQihZ001QQcategoryZ16219Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</p>

The shipping calculator puts shipping at $1,200+ so that is not a savings at all over the Allen in Buffalo.</p>

</p>

[nullogik]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Yep, that TC-3 has been on EBay for some time.</p>

Personally, I don't think its worth it even if you did get it for $500 - that would make a total of $2000. Don't forget you might need to hire an organ tech to come and set up for you if you are not sure. </p>

I would say that you should wait a bit longer and try and get one a bit closer.
</p>

One suggestion might be do to a local "tour" of the Churches in and around your area and see do any of them have old Allen/Rodgers that they don't appear to be using much. You then might want to approach the pastor/priest to see if they want to sell in the near future. Who knows what might happen?
</p>

[jbird604]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Philip,</P>


I like nullogik's suggestions. Check around in the nearby cities. Something is bound to come available in an area as populous as yours. No need to pay $1500 to have one shipped in unless it's something truly remarkable.</P>


To answer your earlier question, the TC series organs do have separate diapason generators. They do sound much better than the T-12 and Theatre Compact and other models with flute generators only. They work pretty much like small unit pipe organs, but with the added ability to modifiy each rank in certain ways. For example, the flutes can be switched between a very dry "open" flute sound and a richer "stopped" flute or quintadena sound. The diapasons can become violas or dulcianas. The trumpet can become an oboe. The diapason rank can be played alone or with its celeste enabled.</P>


My memory is not perfect, but I think I can briefly describe the various models in the series:</P>


The TC-1 has a flute generator and a diapason and optionally a celeste rank (string). It was often sold in the princess console (which you don't want) but was optionally in the AGO console, and I've seen a lot of them that way.</P>


The TC-3 has a flute and diapason generator and a reed trunk added to the flute generator so that realistic trumpet and oboe tones are available, though the flute note sounds along with whatever reed note is played. The reed sound pretty much covers up the flute, so it is an acceptable compromise. For Allen back then it was a way to sell an organ with "real" reeds without the added expense of a fully separate tone generator assembly. The TC-3 optionally has a celeste rank.</P>


The TC-4 has independentflute, diapason, reed, and celeste ranks.</P>


TC series organs had so many options and so many incarnations over the 10+ years that Allen sold them, you're likely to find almost anything out there. Some have simple preset pistons, others have setterboards, and a few of the very late ones have the Allen sequential capture action. They may or may not have electronic "whind" and they may come with one, two, three, or more speaker cabinets with amps on a rack or in the tone cabinets themselves. The gyro motors may be two-speed or three-speed.</P>


Keep up the good work. </P>


John</P>
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[nullogik]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



I think its safe to say that both JBird and I are recommending the TC series as a "baseline" organ - in that if you come across a MOSI or MOSII within your budget then plump for that, but a TC series should be your baseline, don't go for anything older. </p>

In particular I think you should look for something TC-3 or greater in the range (TC-3, TC-3S, TC-4 etc.) as you might find the TC-1 a bit limiting, plus TC-3 onwards come with AGO console and pedal board as standard. If you can get a MOS1 or MOS2 for your budget then even better!</p>

If you see something you like and are unsure, then post a link to it here or post a picture with the model number included. Someone on here will be able to give it the thumbs up or down for you.</p>

Good Luck!
</p>

[Philip the organist]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



VERRRRY tempting:</p>

http://cgi.--------/Rodgers-Two-Manual-Digital-Organ_W0QQitemZ180292289757QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m180292289757&amp;_trkparms=72%3A570%7C39%3A1%7C66 %3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&amp;_trksid=p3286.c0.m 14</p>

Rodgers 530 digital from the 90s, within 400 mi.</p>

[arie v]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Philip,</P>


I do NOT find this organ VERRRRRRY tempting.</P>


The Rodgers 530 along with the 520 and also the 525/535, were organs made in Italy by Roland. The build quality on them is rather poor, and the sound not much better.</P>


If Rodgers from the 90s is your cup of tea, try to get a 6xx series, or a 7xx series organ. They sounded better, and built MUCH better.</P>


AV</P>

[Philip the organist]

Re: Birthday wishes-used Allen, fixing a Kimball, etc.



Thanks Arie for your, I'll skip this one. I've played 2 90s Rodgers, an analog from immediately before PDI and then a 1993 PDI hybrid. I found them to be pretty nice, but they were much bigger and American made, as opposed to the one on eBay.
</p>