Economic realities and the organ business

[arie v]

Hi,</p>

I was just wondering, with all the bad financial news coming out of the US the last few days, how this might affect the music business, specifically the organ business. Looking at the NAMM statistics for institutional organs (electronic), sales went down about 7% last year from the year before. But they are down about 25% from 2002. In 2002 about 3,800 organs were sold. Last year about 2,700. The statistics back up what I hear from friends who are in the organ business.
</p>

With increased financial problems, continuing shifts in worship styles in churches, as well as declines in the financial health of churches, this can only mean a time of trouble for organ manufacturers, organ dealers, etc. The fact that that there are fewer people available to play the organ doesn't help.
</p>

Here in Canada, society has become very secular, church attendance is less than half of what it is in the US. Most of the mainline protestant churches have parishes of mostly elderly people. Church closures and amalgamations are common. It is said, if things don't change in the next 2 years, there will be an increased stampede of church closures.</p>

I have also noticed, that it is mostly older folks who buy organs. Unless more younger folks take an interest in the organ and it's literature, the organ marketplace will change dramatically in the next few years. There have already been a number of organ companies that have ceased to trade. My guess is that there are several others in a state of poor health. One thing about lower sales, is that there is less money available for R &amp; D. Maybe this has already explained why there have not been great improvements in what manufacturers offer.</p>

It is not only organs that are in a pickle. Again, from NAMM statistics, acoustic and digital piano sales, are way off as well. Acoustic piano sales are barely half of what they were 10 years ago. Even digital piano sales have peaked and are on the way down. Companies like Ibach, Seiler have gone under. Earlier this year Bosendorfer was rescued by Yamaha.
</p>

I do service work on select electronic organs. I am one of very few left in my area doing this work. But increasingly, churches are letting their instrument languish in a state of disrepair. The organ is not used much in places that bought a new instrument as recently as 10 years ago. I also work in a large music store, selling pianos (both digital and acoustic). While sales there are steady, what sells in numbers are guitars, drum kits, and keyboards under $1,000. In other words, as long as it doesn't cost too much, folks will buy it. If it costs over $1,000, people think long and hard about spending their hard earned cash.</p>

I just hope that the financial crisis is just a short term blip. Otherwise, our favourite organ company, or piano company will be out of business.</p>

AV</p>

P.S. As for the pipe organ business, it is also in slow decline, but those companies that are still around, are generally in fairly good shape, and building organs at a very high standard, both in terms of build quality but also in terms of tonal design. Just my opinion of course.
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[Guest]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business

thruout the ages of the organ great and not particularly great firms have come and also have gone; witness; where is scnitger, silberman, cavaille-coll,skinner, wurlitzer and the list goes on. the firms will come and will go--its a matter of sound financial and artistic management along with market forces that determine the outcomes. the organ will always continue coz it is able to take care of itself by its sheer power to inspire new interest as it has thruout all past time since ktesibios of alexandria b.c.

[Guest]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business/lack of music education as cause



Aloha arie v,</p>

As much as it hurts me to say this I blame the Public Schools System and the individual State Boards and Departments of Education for not mandating piano, organ, solo instrument, voice and Music Theory from 4th grade to 12th grade as a requirement for graduation - just like reading, writing, and mathematics.  The parent/student should be provided names for private tuition but the student must then sit for comprehensive exams as requirement for graduation.</p>

Cheers,</p>

Kphone </p>

[ahlborn]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



Dear friends, 
I can express an opinion on the current situation in Italy. 
First of all, we need a premise: Italy Churches are almost all Catholic, other Churches are small in number and in their cults is not expected the organ (eg. Orthodox). So, every possible reference to the purchase of it can be done to the Catholic Churches, and the organists who wish to practice at home. 
Now, it must be said that in Italy, in the Churches, there are predominantly pipe organs, and few electronic organs. 
The Allen or Rodgers organs, in Italy are almost unknown. 
The price of these organs in Italy is very high, with the price of an three keyboards Allen, built an mechanical action pipe organ to two keyboards and 30/35 stops. 

The electronic organ in Italy is accepted only as an practice instrument. 
Some Church has an electronic organ, but often are small Churches, organists not play willingly. 
These are with internal amplification, not large installations. 

The electronic organs are purchased only by organists and students; only cheap instruments. In Italy the most convenient are Viscount and Ahlborn, because they are built in Italy. 
The technical service is set to music stores; generally the technicians who repair keyboards, amplifiers, digital-pianos, also repair electronic organs. 

The speech in Italy is complex: The Churches do not pay the organists for their work. The Churches claim that organists do their work for free. Only the great Cathedrals have a stable organist who is salaried (eg Milan Cathedral, St. Peter Vatican etc). 
It is obvious that people lose interest in this instrument. Nobody is studying 10 years and then not work. 
Only a few people continue academic organ studies, but only for passion. Their work will be another, and not do the organist or musician. 

This raises a general disinterest for the Churches and their instruments. 

The pianos in Italy sell more, but even here the numbers decline. They are predominantly upright pianos.  

I do not know if the current economic crisis will affect sales of organs; unfortunately in Italy the biggest problems in the mindset of priests, who often do not like the music!

</P>

[nullogik]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



Here in the UK, like I've said before, I blame the likes of the huffy-stuffy people at RCO (Royal College of Organists) and organists in various Catherdrals and larger Churches for not doing enough to promote the organ amongst younger folk.</p>

Like I said, the RCO do a few introductory workshops for young people, but these are only ever publicised and in their in-house magazine (which you have to subscribe to). Just how are kids with a slight interest in the organ going to find out about these workshops or even the RCO???</p>

Large Cathedrals and prestigious Churches need to throw open their doors and work with the kids by showing them around the organ, playing some fun pieces (to get them excited) and letting them have a go (even if it is only "chopsticks") - what I call "taster" sessions. People might frown at this, but when I talk about fun pieces at taster sessions, I mean stuff like what CC plays (Indiana Jones theme tune etc). As lovely music as it is, "high brow" music like Vierne/Durufle etc. isn't going to get kids fired up. More importantly, these sessions need to be widely promoted in surrounding Churches in the diocese and crucially be affordable or free.
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Prestigious organs need to be made open to public to have a go on. By this I mean, that you pay a small fee and get a couple of minutes (15-20 minutes) supervised playing time. What better inspiration is there, than playing on the Albert Hall organ for example?...and yes, even if they play a bad rendition of "The Entertainer" on it. I'd give a right arm and leg to be allowed anywhere near these organs...and I'm a "qualified" organist. But the perception given by a lot of Churches large and small is "DON'T TOUCH OUR ORGAN" - like an antique that your grandma used to forbid you to touch as a child.
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[BOZ]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



This is so depressing that I went out and bought a new Rodgers 678. </p>

At least I will be able to fiddle (play the organ) as Rome (USA) burns.</p>

[soubasse32]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



[quote user="nullogik"]As lovely music as it is, "high brow" music like Vierne/Durufle etc. isn't going to get kids fired up.[/quote]</P>


There is such a generational/cultural difference between classically trained organists and typical kids. Iadmit I knowextremely little about what kids are listening to these days. But I do know thatwhat is fashionablechanges by the minute, and you would spend a good dealof time trying to stay abreast of what is relevant to each age group. Mostprofessional organists need to spend a great deal of time focusing on their own work. They also need to spend time listening to music that will feed their soul; I'm afraid that when I do listen to what kids like, I find it inane and depressing. [:(]</P>


Another way of looking at it: I know what makes the organ sound magnificent, and what music takes advantage of its vast resources. It is not something by Britney Spears, Beyoncé, or the New Kids on the Block! It is going to be Bach, Widor, Dupré. To play modern pop music (or even video game music) on a pipe organ trivializes the instrument and takes away part of what makes it so appealing: its vastness and profundity, its ancient history, its 'otherworldliness' and connection to the church. I think kids sense when someone panders to them, and they run the other way; on the other hand, I often have kids watching me play the postlude - they are quite captivated to hear music they don't ordinarily encounter.</P>


[quote user="nullogik"]More importantly, these sessions need to be widely promoted in surrounding Churches in the diocese and crucially be affordable or free.[/quote]I'm not sure the freepart has any impact whatsoever. Ifkids want cellphones, iPods, Xboxes, etc. they have no problem finding the funds. If they don't have any interest in a particular subject they are not likely to attend, whether it is free or not.</P>


One other observation... most of the kids I know (I teach hundreds [:D] ) are horribly overcommitted time-wise. Their sleep-deprived lives are highly structured with self-indulgent activities; anything that doesn't provide instant gratification doesn't have a chance of showing up on their radar. This is especially true with music studies - it takes years to perfect one's technique, and there is no promise that this path will provide substantial monetary gain.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



Great points made by all. </P>


I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason why some children may not appreciate Vierne is because they were never brought up to appreciate it. If the parents listen to pop culture, then that is what the children will listen to and appreciate. It also does not help that we are being completely bombarded by pop culture. Every mall, store, etc. you walk into, they are playing pop culture music. In high schools, they play the same music as they switch periods. All the video games play the same music, and we have games like guitar hero for those wanting to be rock stars. Our TV shows are filled with pop culture music, there are far more radio stations with this genre of music, you cannot even pump your gas in peace as there is a television screen again bombarding you with pop culture....the examples are ENDLESS. We are constantly being saturated abd conditioned with pop culture music wherever we are. It's almost borderline brainwashing and it's happening all the time, every day. </P>


I checked out a Disney store. Guess what they had on their big screen? Young children dressed in East Indian ethnic clothing, singing pop and rock music real loud. Again, brainwashing and assimilation. Assimilate them young. Everyone is plugged into something...don't think, consume and obey.</P>


Our public school system has ruthlessly slashed music and the arts. As a teacher, I see the constant pressure on the performance of children in mathematics and language testing. They test for nothing else. What are they saying? That only math and language matter. If other children have other talents and abilities, they are neglected. Is this teaching for equity? Is this inclusive learning/teaching? And of course, if the schools don't perform well, then there goes the funding, so the schools have to focus on math and language or lose finding. And what is all of this testing really doing? Teaching children how to write tests. Out here, if you have a learning disability, the child still writes the same test, and if they can't, they get a ZERO and it's still factored into the overall school's score. Again, is this teaching for equity? Is this socially just? </P>


So in short, we have our work cut out for us. </P>

[arie v]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



BOZ,</p>

Good for you. The organ fellows just love people like you.</p>

So, play much, and enjoy much.</p>

Arie V
</p>

[Guest]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business

[quote user="ReedGuy"]


Our public school system has ruthlessly slashed music and the arts. As a teacher, I see the constant pressure on the performance of children in mathematics and language testing. They test for nothing else. What are they saying? That only math and language matter. If other children have other talents and abilities, they are neglected. Is this teaching for equity? Is this inclusive learning/teaching? And of course, if the schools don't perform well, then there goes the funding, so the schools have to focus on math and language or lose finding. And what is all of this testing really doing? Teaching children how to write tests. Out here, if you have a learning disability, the child still writes the same test, and if they can't, they get a ZERO and it's still factored into the overall school's score. Again, is this teaching for equity? Is this socially just? </p>


[/quote]</p>

I too teach in the public school system. Fortunately, I teach in a high school that has one of the best music program in the area. I am continually impressed by the quality of their performances. Needless to say the students who are in the music program also are better in all of their other subject areas despite all of the after school practice and lessons.</p>


</p>

[soubasse32]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business



[quote user="ReedGuy"]It also does not help that we are being completely bombarded by pop culture. Every mall, store, etc. you walk into, they are playing pop culture music.[/quote]Iwould give anythingto see a mall or a supermarket that plays Reger organ music instead of Muzak. It will never happen, but I would love to see it once! [:D] People would fall on the floor in a panic. [:P]</P>

[nullogik]

Re: Economic realities and the organ business

[quote user="soubasse32"]I'm not sure the freepart has any impact whatsoever. Ifkids want cellphones, iPods, Xboxes, etc. they have no problem finding the funds. If they don't have any interest in a particular subject they are not likely to attend, whether it is free or not.


[/quote]</P>


I don't think I explained myself properly. When I was talking about free and affordable I had in mind the courses the RCO have on offer for kids which are typically weekend residential courses at some private school in the middle of no where and cost US$400. At this price point, pretty much all but the very most committed are going tobe put off. How about someworkshops that don't cost an arm and a leg and that you don't have to trek miles to if you have a mildinterest in the organ?</P>


Having come out of the teenage years fairly recently I think I am best placed to say that my peers (in the UK anyway) would not be impressed by some piece of Durufle etc. on an organ. What they would be impressed by is something like Cameron Carpenters rendition of Indiana Jones (on the M&amp;O organ). I'm talking about using such music to spark an initial interest...then progress by showing them more "traditional music" that is played on the organ. Trust me, most "average" kids and teenagers aren't going to be in the slightest bit interested in a piece of Bach.</P>


A good example of this was a TV program (BBC - The Choir)where a choir master was sent to a local comprehensive inner-city rough school to try and form a choir. To get the kids inspired and enthusiastic (which they weren't, sayingsinging in choirswas "boring") , he arranged a popular pop song into harmony suitable for a choir as the first song the choir would learn. This was enough to get the kids excited and the result was quite a lot joined. Then he let them play around with the music incorporating "rap" and other forms of music. After getting the kids inspired and showing them was they could do, he then taught them a piece of classical music which they were quite receptive to. At the end of the series there were some "before and after" clips shown with the kids saying that classical music was "boring etc." at the beginning of the run and by the end how much they appreciated the beauty of classical music and that it wasn't boring.</P>


You have to relate to these kids, spark an initialinterest in them, show them what they can do, then introduce them to a wider range of music. This program was a real inspiration. That "initial spark" will not be generated by the likes of Widor/Vierne/Durufle. </P>


This is the opinion of someone who has grown up as a youth through the whole pop/rap/R&amp;B culture. Sorry to offend or sound so harsh (I don't mean it), but having just come out of my teens not too recently, I feel that I am in a unique position to comment about this kind of thing.</P>

[Dewey643]

I'm 55,and I have absolutely NO INTEREST in Bach.Mozart,etc. Just give me my hymns,and maybe a few contemporary worship pieces,and I'm happy! I'm a beginner,so I'm just learning organ! I have nothing against Bach,Mozart,etc,...it's just not the kind of music I want to play!

[BOZ]

Re: I'm Off Topic: Economic realities and the organ business



Maybe we need to resurrect Leonard Bernstein...... at least his approach to introducing classical music to youth by means of his young people's concert series. I wonder if this would succeed these days or if it would be simply shrugged off as boring? Probably, Virgil Fox was the organist who pulled this off most successfully. CC is making headway.</p>

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that music appreciation (at the very least) must be a requirement in public schools. I'm a scientist by training but my best memories from HS were not of the Science Club but of the Choral Group (doing musicals as well as some classical singing). I now wish I had much more training in classical music theory. Maybe I should work on a time machine, eh?</p>

Enjoying this thread and sorry I've gone OT.</p>

 </p>

[davidecasteel]

Re: I'm Off Topic: Economic realities and the organ business

[quote user="BOZ"]


Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that music appreciation (at the very least) must be a requirement in public schools. I'm a scientist by training but my best memories from HS were not of the Science Club but of the Choral Group (doing musicals as well as some classical singing). I now wish I had much more training in classical music theory. </P>


[/quote]Is perhaps one of the difficulties schools have today in encouraging choral singing the very fact that almost all Classical choral works are religious? Even some of the operas have religious themes. When you come right down to it, although I don't have statistics to prove it, I'd guess that at least 80% of all religious choral music is Christianity-based. (How many Islamic-inspired large choral works have you heard? Buddhist? There are, admittedly, some Jewish works, but they are far outnumbered by the vast outpouring of Christian choral music.) Other religions just do not have the tradition of large-scale choral (or congregational) singing, and the paucity of music generated by those religions demonstrates that. This is not intended to denigrate other religions, rather to indicate that there are differences in how religions express their faith: Christians sing; most others do not. (If I'm wrong in this, please instruct me.)</P>


David</P>

[Dewey643]

I was in band from grade 5 all the way through high school,....I played trombone! My best memories were concert,and marching band,and going on band trips!

[soubasse32]

Re: I'm Off Topic: Economic realities and the organ business



That is a good point, David. If you work with community choirs you quickly learn that you have to program music to suit all the members, some of whomwant absolutely nothing to do withsecular music. It is difficult challenge, becausesome of the best choralmusic comes from that tradition.</P>


It certainly is a different world today.</P>