Please help! 😩

[Libbyismylabel]

I have been tasked with finding a replacement organ for our now defunct church organ. They carried the old one out and replaced it with a home model someone donated, but its foot pedals hardly work and Bb, C, and D in the lowest octave of the lower keyboard don’t work at all. All that to say, we need a new (to us) organ and I don’t have the old one to compare to. The only instruction I’ve been given is: 1.) It must be an organ (not a piano or keyboard). 2.) It must be fully functioning. 3.) It must not have tubes like our old unrepairable one.

To complicate things further, I have no idea what I’m doing. I am the primary organ player but I really don’t play correctly, as I’m much more accustomed (and trained) to playing piano. There is a considerable group of people in our congregation who strongly prefer to have an organ and seem enthusiastic about my playing even when I know I’m doing terribly. I’ve never shopped for an organ and don’t know where to begin.

Our church is very traditional, and we want a very traditional sounding church organ. I’ve been shopping FB marketplace but without videos, it’s hard to know what I’m looking at and many of the sellers don’t even know what they’re looking at. I’ve found a few in the area, but I don’t know if they’d be suitable.

There are two Gulbransens but it looks like they likely have tubes. There’s a nice looking Hammond and a Baldwin but I’m waiting for model info. There’s just so much to know… any help? Pointers? Quick start guides? I’m overwhelmed. 😅

[jbird604]

You've come to the right place, so have a seat and make yourself at home!

Glad you said that your church is very traditional, that people love the organ and want to continue having an organ in the service. That tells me, and others who are even more able to advise you, that you want something that falls into a distinct category. You are looking for a classical style organ, one that's new enough to be reliable and fixable when necessary.

I doubt that a Hammond or Gulbransen of any age or model would truly fit the description you're working with. A Baldwin likewise is questionable because the older ones were built by a company that no longer exists, and newer ones were built in Italy and support for them is definitely limited now.

You probably need to focus on finding an Allen, or possibly a Rodgers or Johannus if quite new. Allen has the advantage of being an 80+ year old company that still carries parts and offers support for every organ they ever built. But parts can be pricey, though they have sold so many organs that there are spare parts available for many models through ebay etc.

Just over the past few months more than one person has joined the forum with the very same needs as you, so you might check out some threads on here about finding a good used church organ.

But many fine people here will be quick to offer advice and opinions about any organ you may see in your area, and some may even be willing to do some searching for you.

Also, you mentioned not being confident about your playing, and this is a great place to get some help with that too. So please hang around and see if you can get some good assistance here.

[Libbyismylabel]

Thank you for your answer! I’ll keep that in mind. I didn’t realize just how many types of organs there were or how common place the “non-church” varieties were, as that’s been my main exposure. 😄

[daryljeffreyl]

I suggested that “Libbyismylabel” look at the Viscount Cantorum Duo Plus or Trio Plus. They are in components. Kraft Music, possibly other Viscount dealers may also deliver the organ components for free. Since they are components, several young people could carry the organ components into the church and up to the choir loft-no need to hire an organ and piano moving company.

Kraft Music shows the pictures of the organ components, along with prices. These models have MIDI. A separate sound module, a keyboard, or a computer with a sound engine can be connected to the Viscount Cantorum Duo Plus or Trio Plus, adding more sounds diversity.

Do you have any additional thoughts or corrections about this suggestion?

[daryljeffreyl]

I suggested that “Libbyismylabel” look at the Viscount Cantorum Duo Plus or Trio Plus. They are in components. Kraft Music, possibly other Viscount dealers may also deliver the organ components for free. Since they are components, several young people could carry the organ components into the church and up to the choir loft-no need to hire an organ and piano moving company.

Kraft Music shows the pictures of the organ components, along with prices. These models have MIDI. A separate sound module, a keyboard, or a computer with a sound engine can be connected to the Viscount Cantorum Duo Plus or Trio Plus, adding more sounds diversity.

Do you have any additional thoughts or corrections about this suggestion?

[Libbyismylabel]

Also, could someone please clarify exactly what the tubes are I’m trying to avoid? 😅🫣

I found a Hammond M-3 for $300 but I think it has tubes too.

[jbird604]

A Hammond M3 does have tubes, but that happens to be one of the more popular Hammond models, and the tubes for it are easily available for low cost.

Now, a Hammond M3 is not, strictly speaking, a traditional church organ, and wouldn't be the type of organ that a typical classical player would want. BUT, on the other hand, $300 is not much money, and if it's working it could be a quick and easy choice.

Just keep in mind that "sounds like an organ" means different things to different people. If your people are seriously wanting an authentic classical church organ that imitates pipes pretty well, a Hammond isn't what you need. But if they mostly just want the sustained tones with harmonics that are characteristic of all organs, it might be just fine.

Also be aware that the M3 is a "spinet" model, which means it has only 44 keys per keyboard and 13 pedal keys, not the 61 key keyboards and 32 note pedals that a genuine classical model would have. That may or may not have any bearing on your choice.

[Libbyismylabel]

After reading some of jbird604’s comments on another thread similar to this, I thought I should clarify what my intended definition of traditional is acoustic: not CCM style contemporary. Not full blown Gaither, but not “high church” as mentioned in this thread. I guess a better term would have been conservative.

Here’s a glimpse of our church: Fundamental Baptist in north Texas. We sing a mix of hymns ranging from A Mighty Fortress to some of the more conservative Gaither songs (The More that I Serve Him). We have a group of “pickers” (one of which is my husband and another of which is our pastor) that play (conservative) bluegrass-style hymns for specials and offertories. But our pastor also likes the organ and traditional styles too. So, we’re a good mix, but I would add, based on another comment from the same thread, that the primary function of the organ is to accompany, not to lead.

[Libbyismylabel]

For what it’s worth: the Gulbransen options are an E-4 and a T-200.

[myorgan]

You will want to stay away from Gulbransen.

Michael

[myorgan]

You probably need to focus on finding an Allen, or possibly a Rodgers or Johannus if quite new.

John is right on the money here. Further, you'll want a digital model rather than analog instrument. If you find an organ, provide a link and we can advise from there.

Just today, I was searching for organs online, and found at least one in Houston. How far would your church be willing to travel to pick up and instrument? Also, do you have a particular budget in mind.

Don't worry about the "tubes." Those organs haven't been made since the 1960s, and you're very unlikely to find a working model of an organ made with tubes in it.

Welcome to the Forum, and you'll find a great amount of help here.

Michael

P.S. We do have a member who has been experiencing medical issues, and expressed an interest in selling his organ, but I haven't heard from him lately, so I'm not sure of the status.

[Libbyismylabel]

I’m waiting to hear about the budget. The old organ went out over a year ago. We had someone’s personal keyboard for a while but they needed it at home so we had just piano until the broken home model was delivered a month or so ago. 

I’m thinking if there are so many people who are so excited about having an organ that they’ll have an untrained newbie like me play, they may be more willing than I expect to make a trek to go get a good one.

[myorgan]

I’m thinking if there are so many people who are so excited about having an organ that they’ll have an untrained newbie like me play....

Not to mention accepting the "gift" of a broken organ.

Don't set your sights too low. I've found 3 of my Allen organs for $1,000 or under–and two of them were 3-manual instruments! I'm not sure if we have many members in the DFW area, but if any of our members are there, they may offer to go with you when looking at an organ if you feel that lost. We can certainly advise from a distance, so feel free to ask when you need help.

Michael

[Monarke]

I remember years ago when I went to a Baptist church convention to help the Johannus dealer at that time. A friend who was the certified technician for Allen later told me that the "trend" for Baptist churches was to ditch the organ and purchase a digital "keyboard".

I do not know if it is still that way, but do not get your hopes too high and your heart set on a shiny new or slightly used 3 manual Allen, Rodgers, Ahlborn-Galanti, Johannus etc.

Several years ago I had a large (literally a college like campus) Baptist church customer with a Rodgers 925. This was one Rodgers' last and very complex analog instruments. It had small many problems which had snowballed from neglect. The organ was moved, out of the sanctuary and then placed back. The instrument was only used for one service a week. The other services were mixed, along with an worship team and/or orchestra. The organist was the only driving force to have it repaired.

The metal threaded feet of the console had been removed. This obviously made the pedal board extremely difficult to remove or place back in, and it would not operate correctly. I found a set of used feet for the customer at a rock bottom price. I was then informed by the contact, "they didn't want to spend the money".

[Libbyismylabel]

There are many in our church who specifically want an organ and at least a decent handful of we who are heavily involved who are very against a keyboard.

[jbird604]

I'll offer another word, after reading your clarification of the church's musical style. You're right to give it another word besides "traditional," as that term generally evokes the use of strictly hymns and classical sacred music, with the organ as the primary musical instrument and the choir as the primary vocal organization.

What you describe is a sort of "blended" service, but not blended in the usual sense of having hymns and contemporary songs and choruses played by a band. Your service is "blended" in that you sing the typical Baptist mix of hymns and gospel songs from your hymnal plus a selection of Gaither (Southern Gospel) and Bluegrass, a sort of home-grown comfortable mix that pleases your people.

Given that style, I'll modify my suggestions to say that a good Hammond model "might" actually be worth considering. I wouldn't say that if you were a classical organist, or if the church had ambitions of having that kind of organ music, and if the organ were "leading" the hymns as it does in many traditional churches (like the Episcopal Church, where I've landed after being raised a Baptist).

But since the organ in your service is more of an accompaniment instrument and is augmented by the piano and by the bluegrass players, it doesn't have to be a large or complicated organ. In fact, simple might be good, both for you as a self-taught player and for integration with those other instruments.

But you still would need to decide how "big" the organ needs to be. A Hammond M3 is pretty small, as organs go, being, as I said above, a "spinet" model. And unless someone has added an external speaker to it, it is playing through a very simple speaker system right in the console, which does limit the volume and breadth of the sound. That might not matter at all though, since the organ isn't the leading instrument. It may be able to put out all the sound you need from the built-in speaker, especially if the church isn't too big.

Keep in mind though that church organ models in general are bigger than the M3, usually having at least two 61-note manuals plus a pedalboard with at least 25 pedals, 30 or 32 pedals for true classical models. But you don't necessarily need all those keys and pedals if you don't play in classical style or even try to play a full bass line on the pedals, which many players never do when the organ is not the leading instrument.

So, you might want to add some information about the size of your church. How many people are there on a Sunday morning, how big the sanctuary is, what kind of ceiling, floor, and walls you have (hard surfaces vs acoustical treatment such as texturing). Padded pews? Chairs?

Anyway, I hope you'll find something within your budget, even if it's small, that will give you the type of organ sound and performance that you're looking for. You could certainly do worse than a Hammond M3. Even though it was designed as a small "home" organ, it does have the authentic Hammond "tone wheel" sound that many non-classical players enjoy so much, and Hammond tone wheel organs are generally very durable and serviceable. The M3 is a far better choice than a Hammond "L" or "K" model, and better than an old Kimball or Conn or Thomas or something that would be harder to maintain and prone to many more issues.

[Libbyismylabel]

What you describe is a sort of "blended" service, but not blended in the usual sense of having hymns and contemporary songs and choruses played by a band. Your service is "blended" in that you sing the typical Baptist mix of hymns and gospel songs from your hymnal plus a selection of Gaither (Southern Gospel) and Bluegrass, a sort of home-grown comfortable mix that pleases your people.

So, you might want to add some information about the size of your church. How many people are there on a Sunday morning, how big the sanctuary is, what kind of ceiling, floor, and walls you have (hard surfaces vs acoustical treatment such as texturing). Padded pews? Chairs?

Boy would our congregation be surprised to hear that analysis of our “conservative/traditional” music. 😂

It’s around 100 in the auditorium on a Wednesday night (we have three services per week, but Wednesday is a good representation because we have fewer visitors and fewer kids’ programs then). We have padded pews and carpeted floors. Slightly elevated platform (where organ sits). Sadly not well equipped acoustically, but we do have a sound system. The professional who pronounced our last organ dead apparently told the pastor that he noticed we had just been using a microphone with the old organ. 😅🫣

[myorgan]

About 100˚ in the auditorium on Wednesdays for rehearsal? WOW, I'd get air conditioning. You definitely need a digital organ, but I'd shy away from certain used Rodgers instruments, as they have some issues with their keyboards and heat. Others can fill you in on the specific models that have the issue. Other Rodgers digital models should be reliable.

Michael

[Libbyismylabel]

This is 100 in attendance. Not 100 degrees.

[Organkeys Jones]

Having 100 people attending on Wednesday night is impressive. What is your Sunday worship attendance? In agreement with several others, an Allen organ is my first choice. Your church probably would enjoy the sound of an Allen with a deep tremulant (optional on older models, standard for the past few years). My second choice, as a Baptist myself, is Hammond with a Leslie speaker.

[Larason2]

I think you should get something like a console Allen, Johannus, or Rodgers. New if you have the budget, used if you don't have the budget. The benefit of having someone that can come repair it is a big benefit. Otherwise it is always you! These can all sound traditional.

If finding used is impossible and you don't have the budget for new, don't discount a keyboard style model. I was tasked with buying a portable instrument for the Latin Mass I attended, and I bought them a Nord C2D. They exclusively use the traditional voices, and they are delighted with it. The organist takes it home every week to practice. It has been discontinued, but you can get a Hammond SKX or a Viscount Cantorum Duo Plus and a big pedalboard. We got the Nord 27 key pedalboard, which was necessary because it wasn't too big, but I would get a proper 32 key AGO type if you can, say from Viscount or Classic Midi works. The Hammond has other voices, but it has a very nice sampled American classic style organ. The Viscount is more traditionally focused.

You can't accompany bluegrass with the Viscount. The Hammond will give you loads of options, and it can be made to look not too "keyboardy." When you want traditional organ sounds, you can get them. If you want it as a Hammond, you can do that. If you want a piano or rhodes sort of sound, it will do it. If you want instruments or a synth, it can add it. Very flexible. But if I was playing, I'd rather have a proper console organ where I can call someone and they'll come repair it!

[jbird604]

I'm laughing out loud at the prospect of Michael playing the bass line on the keyboard with his feet!

[myorgan]

John, the Symphony laughed at me as well, but we now have an organ!

Michael

[Larason2]

Haha, very funny you guys! If I had to, I'd play a keyboard with my feet, but it's much easier to hook up a pedalboard to a keyboard and play with that!

[Libbyismylabel]

I should clarify that the organ does not accompany the bluegrass group (usually two guitars, a mandolin, a violin or two, and a u-bass). They play by themselves for special music features.

[WeedMIC]

Now I am imagining the wear and tear of a portable organ - poor thing :D

[jbird604]

You can see from the wide variety of suggestions that this isn't an easy decision. And there are SO many factors that only you can work on from your perspective.

100 people on Wednesday night, so probably a not so small church this day and age. I remember when my old country Baptist church started running over 100 all the time, and the pastor remarked that we were now in the top 5% of congregations in our state. Not a mega church by any measure, but big enough to get things done.

If the church is serious about having a suitable organ, it's probably time to contact an actual organ dealer or a reputable organ rebuilding shop. If I still had my shop in central Arkansas, I'd even be interested in talking to you about doing an installation for you.

But once you involve the pros, the money goes to a different level. While junk-saling around for a $500 organ is a noble pursuit for a little congregation of 15 or 20 people, a church that runs over 100 can afford and truly deserves a professional's input and a better class of used organ.

Not that you CAN'T hope to locate a respectable used organ for free or nearly so, but with 100 people to please this becomes too big a burden to lay upon a single church member. Not trying to be a downer, just being realistic.

[Libbyismylabel]

Thank you for putting this in perspective! I was just tasked with doing the research, the church will be funding the project. I’ve reached out to a local dealer and waiting to hear from them.

[myorgan]

100 people on Wednesday night, so probably a not so small church this day and age. I remember when my old country Baptist church started running over 100 all the time, and the pastor remarked that we were now in the top 5% of congregations in our state.

You don't know how lucky you are to have that many on Wednesday evenings, and presumably more on Sundays! I know 800-seat churches with less than 50 rambling around on Sunday mornings.

I agree with John, your church probably needs a real organ rather than just a keyboard. You won't find a "real" organist without a "real" organ. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to over-buy at this point. Perhaps a used organ from a dealer near you might be the best direction to take.

That said, don't be afraid to second-guess what a dealer is recommending. A dealer will want his/her company to be well-represented, but also needs to move stock. I'm not familiar with the dealers in your area, but I do know a couple not far from me who really shouldn't be in the business of selling organs. Hopefully, because you are in a larger metropolitan area, your dealers and options will be better.

Please keep us informed of the progress of your search.

Michael

[Libbyismylabel]

For those of you curious: I will re-estimate to say Wednesdays probably run 75-100 average in attendance. Sunday mornings are generally well over 115. Sunday nights are somewhere in the middle. I would say the vast majority of our members come to all the services, so our church is not the norm.

There’s someone selling a Baldwin Viscount C500 an hour and a half from the church. I initially dismissed it because it looked too intimidating, but now that we’re looking at only intimidating instruments, I may reconsider. 😂 However, John recommended that Baldwins may not be a good option because of repair ability issues. Thoughts on this particular model?

He’s asking $3,500 and here’s the description:

Item is a Baldwin Viscount C500 electric church organ. It has some minor cosmetic damage but is a good home instrument or for a church or chapel. I am needing to sell it because we are moving and we are in need of money for the move.
The top manual does not play but the stops for that manual are fully functional and can be coupled to another manual.
I am asking $4000 for it. This is a very rare organ. Only 100 total were made. 50 in the US and 50 in the UK.
It can also be hooked up to hauptwerk technology as a midi interface.
It will require a lot of people to move because it weighs approximately 850 lbs.
I will take cash or a check but if it is a check, I will not let the organ go until the check clears for obvious reasons. I have not had luck with cash apps due to people scamming. A money order or cashier check would be fine too.

[myorgan]

I have seen that ad for the Baldwin/Viscount, but have shied away from it because of the distance, lack of functionality, and lack of repairability. While it would be VERY IMPRESSIVE to bring that 5-manual, drawstop organ to use with the Symphony, the sound quality would quickly be questioned.

If the dealer you checked with is the one I'm thinking of, they have an Allen TT-4 organ for sale, and used to have a MDS-40 OR MDS-41 available. Either of those would be a fairly appropriate organ for use in your church. Of course, I've seen those listed for quite some time, so that means either they're not updating their website, or they're not selling for some reason or another (maybe price?).

Let us know what you find (as you already have with the Baldwin).

Michael

[Larrytow]

I agree with the others - skip the Baldwin / Viscount. I'm working with a church right now who is replacing a Baldwin C-400 with an Allen, because the key contacts are bad, and parts cannot be found.

[Larason2]

Hmmm, I'd say not a good idea. Maybe the top manual is repairable, but if it's an integrated circuit chip that's to blame, then it won't be. Viscount made those for Baldwin, but there's no replacement parts available for them anymore. It was made close to the capacitor plague era, so it could be very unreliable. Generally these organs are worth something if they are perfectly functional. If there's any hint something's wrong, it's usually best to run.

[Mark M]

I agree with Larason. Is it a really nice looking, HUGE organ? Absolutely. But in your case, huge might be a big downfall. Unfortunately, there's not really an easy way to fittingly use such an instrument in a church of 120 people. That kind of organ is much more suited to a cathedral or concert hall seating thousands. (in fact, I've played at cathedrals that have smaller organs as their main organ). At my church, we have a three manual Content for about probably 75 people at most, and unfortunately it is overkill at times. The price tag is also sorta unreasonable, I believe, for an organ that is broken, without parts available readily.

[Mark M]

Oh wow! Despite the size, that would be quite the home organ lol!

Ohhh, I didn't realize it had home organ console audio. Thanks!

[LePhantom]

I used to play one of those in a 600 seat church with 4 seconds of reverb. Bottom four divisions in the balcony, echo division behind the altar. It also a small two manual Ahlborn module behind the choir in the front. You needed arm extensions to play the echo division

[Mark M]

That sounds awesome