"Ancient Reed stop" - help identifying 1960s organ

[MarkA]

Hello! And I wonder if anyone can help. This is a tricky one, I know.

I am working on some scores from the late 1960s which prominently feature electronic organ alongside other instruments. The composer used electronic organ in his works a lot.
Much of the time, the registrations would be worked out in rehearsal but, once he knew which exact instrument was available, our composer could become very specific with his stop suggestions.

This particular score (at least two manuals plus pedals, 1969), contains the following suggestions:

"Ancient Reed stop" (this is exactly what is written on the score, and is the most specific)
Strings (+ Percuss)
Trumpets
Tuba (on pedals)
Troms / Horns
Horns
ST (strings?)
Brass
WW (Clari)
Fag (Fagotto or Fagotti I assume!)
Pic (Piccolo)
Tutti

Now, I know it's a long-shot. The above are not entirely unusual. But "Ancient Reed" is very specific. It would be lovely to identify the instrument. I say electronic, and I believe that to be the case. Probably "portable" (ish!). It was probably hired in for the gig. Though I guess these could be Hammond presets...

Any help much appreciated.

Mark

[JeffW]

Now, I know it's a long-shot.

To assist in demonstrating the "long-shot" quality, I've pieced together some fragmentary bits but call on those with wisdom (including jbird604) to think through the following less-than-a-thread thick connections I've created...

1. It will be assumed the instrument referenced is an electronic organ, circa 1960s vintage.
2. mlaird noted the large number of not needed "ancient reeds" in the Allen MDS-Expander II in this post on the forum in 2019. It is safe to assume that at least the Rankett and Barpfeife stops are among the "ancient reeds" he refers to as found listed at the end of the MDS-Expander II manual.
3. A Dr. Monrotus (DDM, minister, and organ blogger), in his multi-part blogging about the MDS-Expander II, noted its "ancient reeds" among the various voice options.
4. In a 1996 manual for an MDS organ, Allen Organ notes its "more than fifty-year" history producing electric[on] organs.
5. If the MDS-Expander II is indeed a "second", there must have been a first. Although the Expander II is MIDI based, earlier expander(s) may not have been.

Putting the above together, it is possible that the organ referred to is some 1960s vintage Allen Organ with an expander (predecessor to the MDS II and I?) that may have allowed "Ancient Reed(s)" to be selected. Remember, the inclusions of specific Baroque-named stops in electronic organs at that time would likely have been a rarity AND if an old style reed(s) was included it may have just been labeled "Ancient Reed" given how exotic and unfamiliar such names as "Rankett" or "Barpfeife" would be--such stop names would have confused even most pipe organists at that time.

jbird604 John--were there such Allen expanders in the late 1960s...if so, they didn't use MIDI (early 1980s technology), do you know how it might be controlled by the pre-MIDI console.

Just a guess, as you can tell by its length =)

[mlaird]

I would include the following in "antique" or "ancient" reeds available in the Expander II: Rohrshalmei, Barpfeife, Musette, Krumet, Rankett, including the 4' and 16' variants of each. I never found any good use for them unless I was trying to sound like bagpipes. :-)

Regarding the predecessors to the MDS Expander II, there were two versions, one with orchestral sounds, and one with organ stops. The Expander II collected all the sounds from both into one box. All of these were most definitely MIDI devices and arrived long after the transition to digital in 1971.

[adamsih300u]

In the 1960s, Allen organs were all analog, no expansion of an instrument could be done without mapping a lot of wires to the individual oscillators. The only relevant reed stop they had developed at that time was their Krummhorn family (on mine, 16' Dulzian, 8' Krummhorn, 4' Krummregal in a single tone generator rank). This was not seen on the smaller instruments so far as I know, if it was Allen it would have been a larger institutional-type installation.

[myorgan]

Mark,

Any chance of providing the composer and the name of the piece in question? I'm remembering a composer (perhaps Bernstein) who wrote a Mass which used an Allen Organ at the time. If I remember correctly, he requested Allen Organs thereafter for future performances.

I wonder if it could be a French Cornet? To some people, it might be referenced as an "Ancient Reed," according to knowledge of organ construction at that time.

Another possibility might be a Musette or Rankett?

Michael

[JeffW]

I wonder if it could be a French Cornet?

Not likely given the wide availability and use of Cornets in the late 19th and early 20th century German, Dutch and French (including Cavaille-Coll) organs and a number of North American organ builders including Cornets starting in the 1920s (reviewed stop lists 4-manual NYC-based organs in pipeorgandatabase.org - https://pipeorgandatabase.org/instru...=year&limit=12 )

Musette is definitely a possibility as is Rankett which I mentioned above.

[myorgan]

My suggestion of the Cornet would be the French derived (think French Classic/Baroque). Organs of the 1960s weren't terribly authentic when it came to both the variation/authenticity of sounds they produced, but some combinations could be used to create various instruments. I'm trying to think out of the circle here.

Michael

[michaelhoddy]

"Ancient reed" as written by anything done in the Organ Reform 60's as a pipe organ stop or its electronic equivalent would be any number of Krummhorn, Rankett, Regal, Rohrschalmei, or similar.

Buzz.

[MarkA]

It's music for television. Recorded at BBC Maida Vale. Which is what makes me wonder if it was their Hammond. However, the composer in question later used Yamahas almost exclusively (E5-AR etc). But this is earlier... and this stop is very specific! Oddly on the surviving (poor) recording it does almost sound as if it's being pushed by bellows, but I am sure it's electronic.

Thanks, all.

[johnBF]

There was a 3 manual Compton Electrone in BBC Maida Vale in the 60's, frequently played by Bill Davies with the BBC Concert Orchestra for the Friday Night is Music Night programme, although I can't find much about it barring a video from some time ago of someone starting to restore it - I believe someone involved had worked in the BBC Radiophonic Workshop.

[JeffW]

Recorded at BBC Maida Vale. Which is what makes me wonder if it was their Hammond

If you could communicate with performers of the time you might get a definitive answer, but I think you're correct thinking a Hammond organ was used.

Again, circumstantial evidence, but the author Stevens Irwin published four editions of his Dictionary of Hammond Organ Stops: 1st edition in 1939, 2nd in 1952, 3rd in 1961, and Rev. 4th in 1970. I only have access to the 1939 and 1970 additions.

From the 1st edition, of the 20 pages listing combinations for reed sounds, only the following would be considered "ancient" or "antique" (thanks mlaird for the second of those terms as you'll see in the image down below):
Dulcian 8' 16'
Fagotto 8'
Musette 8'
Posaune 8'

By the Rev. 4th edition in 1970 among the 19 pages (double-columned unlike the 1939 single-columned pages) of reed combinations , Irwin includes many more "old" reeds (roughly 25-ish more) with names such as Krummhorn, Regal, and Sackbut, along with 8-ish stops ending in "regal". Among those in the Reed section, Baroque Oboe has five different specification combinations. But most importantly in the 4th edition is page 26 devoted to "A Selection of Baroque-Type Stops" (see image at bottom).

So, I would assume the growth in "old" (ancient/antique) reed combinations between the 1st and 4 editions would have meant that the 3rd edition of 1961 contained at least a few other combinations that would be useful to an organist playing a Hammond in the 1960s.

Given the feedback above about Allen very likely not being the instrument, the Hammond organ did have published guides such as Irwin's Dictionary that would have been available and useful. If someone can look at the 1961 3rd edition to identify how many "old" reed combinations are in it, that may strengthen (or weaken?) the Hammond conjecture.

Let us know if/when you find out more!

[JeffW]

Forgot to note that the British Library has all four editions of Irwin's Dictionary of Hammond Organ Stops, although I'm not sure when they were acquired by the Library.

[Larason2]

In the 60's, there weren't that many portable organs. The ones that existed were like the yamaha YC30, Farfisa Combo Compact, or Vox Continental. All of them used technology similar to the drawbars of the Hammond, using analog generation and adding the different sounds together. So even if those were used, they were often registered similarly to how a Hammond would be registered anyway. That being said, they typically had less options than a Hammond, so they wouldn't be able to emulate it that well. So I also vote for a Hammond. I have a copy of Irwin's book, (also first edition) and some of the associations are whimsical at best, with the reed section being the one most unlike the real thing. Other options though are something like the Hammond extravoice, or the Hammond Novachord, which a lot of studios had in the 60's. There's a wide range of voices it could put out, maybe even something like an "ancient reed." That being said though, the Novachord had only one keyboard.

So could we hear an excerpt of it? Most of us are pretty familiar with the "Hammond" drawbar sound, and would be able to pick up immediately if it was a Hammond registered to sound like a Musette, or at least to distinguish that from a Novachord or some other such instrument.

[andyg]

You mentioned that it sounded like it was played with bellows. How about an ancient reed organ/harmonium? Certainly 'portable' enough to be moved into the studio for the recording.

Or an old Italian portable like a Farfisa that would certainly have had a reedy tone! :)

[Eclecticorganist]

An extremely 'ancient' reed can be created by blowing on a blade of grass held tightly between the thumbs. Keeping an entire rank in tune becomes problematic, however. 😅