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  • Allen ADC Tone Card Question



    On Allen's website, there are two lists for Allen tone cards: One for lower model numbers (I presume cheaper), and one for higher model numbers.</P>


    Would anyone know why there are two different lists, and whether or not cards for an organ from one list will work in an organ from the other list? I'm asking because I'd like to get a card for our ADC 6000 that is in the list for the 1100.</P>


    Thanks in advance for your help.</P>


    Michael</P>
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

  • #2
    Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



    Myorgan,</p>

    It was during the ADC period that Allen changed the way the cards were used. In their early organs, the cards had the stop waveform plus some other data on it. Then during the ADC period, exactly when I can't say, they changed to the cards merely having a stop number which toggled the waveform(s) already stored in the organ. The cards are not interchangeable.</p>

    That is why there are 2 different lists of cards.</p>

    AV
    </p>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



      Michael,</P>


      To elaborate on what Arie says -- the cards made for the ADC1100 are totally different from the ones you have to use for your ADC6000. Would not work at all, or they might produce some weird unrelated tone by accident only.</P>


      MOS 1, MOS 2, and the "regular" ADC models (of which your ADC6000 is one) used cards which, as Arie states, truly contain waveform data, and the card reader has about a dozen lamps and sensors to decode that data as the card is pushed in.</P>


      But the "MADC" models, which include the 1100, 2100, 3100 as well as the improved versions of the same such as the2160 and 3160 -- all these use an entirely different card reader with only six lamps and sensors.</P>


      I suppose Arie is correct in stating that the only data on these cards is a number which points to a set of voices already stored in the organ's computer. No one at Allen ever told me that, but I have heard it from several sources. I do know that the tone cards for that series do not produce any kind of useful tone color when inserted into the other kind of reader.</P>


      BTW, the old-style card readers will "manufacture" a tone from any kind of a punched card you insert. Back in the old days when utility bills came in the form of IBM punched cards (as did government-issued checks -- remember IRS refunds that were on punched cards?) -- anyway, you could take one of these gas or electric bills, push it into the card reader and get some interesting new solo stops!</P>


      Another way to play around with the card reader is to insert a card only part of the way and then pull it back out. You might discover some exciting new sounds that way!</P>


      John</P>
      <P mce_keep="true"></P>
      John
      ----------
      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



        Back in the late 1970s I was a computer programmer for USAF at Ramstein AB, Germany. The base chapel received a new Allen organ with the original type card reader. Allen treated the coding methodology as proprietary information back then and did not divulge the details of what information was encoded or what the coding system was. Naturally, I was curious, knew a fair amount about different coding methods, and had access to card punches. So I examined a number of the cards, created a few test cards to check out various options, and discovered how the cards were coded. After that I made a few new cards for the organist. Most of those were just rescaled (made louder or softer) versions of existing cards, but some were totally new voices. I wrote a document detailing how to perform the calculations needed to create certain types of waveforms and how to encode them into punches on the card. More recently I have created an Excel spreadsheet that does the majority of the calculations for you, and even graphs what the waveform will look like. I would be happy to send that document to anyone interested.</P>


        Michael, John has indicated that this is the same type of card used by your organ The spreadsheet has an option whereby the punches on an existing card can be decoded into decimal numbers and entered as data; the waveform generated by that card can then be viewed. Perhaps you would find that interesting.</P>


        David</P>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



          Does the program work with cards for MOS-1 systems? I have a 425-th and would be interested in the program if it does.</p>

          </p>

          Thanks in advance,</p>

          Randy Hunt
          </p>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



            Randy,</P>


            David's system should work perfectly for you, as the organ he created it for wasMOS-1.</P>


            John</P>
            John
            ----------
            *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

            https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



              Well then count me in. . .</p>

              </p>

              Randy
              </p>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



                [quote user="jbird604"] MOS 1, MOS 2, and the "regular" ADC models (of which your ADC6000 is one) used cards which, as Arie states, truly contain waveform data, and the card reader has about a dozen lamps and sensors to decode that data as the card is pushed in.[/quote]</P>


                John,</P>


                So unless I miss my guess based on what you said above, all the tone cards I have purchased so far for the MOS-2 organ I have will also work in the ADC6000? That would be great!!! However, why do the MOS cards on Allen's site not have the multiple chime cards available, while the ADC still have them available? Just a curiosity why the two lists are so different if they call forth the same information in the same manner.</P>


                I think I already knew from previous conversations with David, that the earlier MOS organs contained a digital representation of the waveform, amplitude, etc. on the card, while the tone cards from the later ADC organs just called forth waveforms already in the computer's memory.</P>


                My initial question that started this thread was based on the premise that cheaper/earlier ADC organs would have less waveforms/samples stored in their memory, thereby only allowing certain cards to call forth those tones. Consequently, later (and larger) ADC organs would have more waveforms/samples stored in their memory, thereby requiring different cards. Did earlier ADC organs actually work the same as the MOS models? Great for me if that's so!</P>


                You guys are a wealth of information!!! Much more so than Allen, I can tell you that!</P>


                Michael</P>
                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



                  Randy, the Forum message methods don't allow me to add attachments. You will need to send me a PM with your real email address in it.</P>


                  If Allen still has any cards for your MOS-1 instrument you may want to buy them now. I have heard that they have quit making any more of them and when what they have in inventory is gone there will be no more. (I do have a simple card punch, though....)</P>


                  David</P>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



                    [quote user="davidecasteel"] More recently I have created an Excel spreadsheet that does the majority of the calculations for you, and even graphs what the waveform will look like. I would be happy to send that document to anyone interested.[/quote]</P>


                    As a recipient of David's Excel spreadsheet, I can vouch for the miraculous nature of his work. Only a genious could figure that out!!!</P>


                    Now, I'm just looking for card stock and money for a spare card punch machine so I can make some of my own cards. David, I'm working on a way to take a sampled waveform and place it into your spreadsheet and have it generate the numbers. For example, if I sampled a Celeste, it'd be great to take the waveform and reverse-engineer the card codes for the hole punch. Just a thought--I think we had actually spoken about that before.</P>


                    David has done excellent work--yet, gives it away. You're a tremendous asset to this group!</P>


                    Michael</P>
                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question

                      [quote user="jbird604"] BTW, the old-style card readers will "manufacture" a tone from any kind of a punched card you insert. Back in the old days when utility bills came in the form of IBM punched cards (as did government-issued checks -- remember IRS refunds that were on punched cards?) -- anyway, you could take one of these gas or electric bills, push it into the card reader and get some interesting new solo stops!


                      Another way to play around with the card reader is to insert a card only part of the way and then pull it back out. You might discover some exciting new sounds that way![/quote]</P>


                      John,</P>


                      Odd you should mention that. When I enrolled in BJU in 1981, they had one of the largest digital computer organs yet made in their 7,000 seat auditorium. When we registered for classes, all the classes were on a punch card, and we'd collect them, then hand them in as a group to schedule our classes for the semester. Before I handed my cards in, I'd go by the organ and test them to see what sound they would product. Ironically, most of them sounded like some sort of reed. Must be my personality!!!</P>


                      Thanks again for your help.</P>


                      Michael</P>
                      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question

                        [quote user="myorgan"] As a recipient of David's Excel spreadsheet, I can vouch for the miraculous nature of his work. Only a genius could figure that out!!!


                        Now, I'm just looking for card stock and money for a spare card punch machine so I can make some of my own cards. David, I'm working on a way to take a sampled waveform and place it into your spreadsheet and have it generate the numbers. For example, if I sampled a Celeste, it'd be great to take the waveform and reverse-engineer the card codes for the hole punch. Just a thought--I think we had actually spoken about that before.</P>


                        David has done excellent work--yet, gives it away. You're a tremendous asset to this group!</P>


                        Michael</P>


                        [/quote]Michael, thanks for the nice words. I'm glad that you found it interesting. and useful. Since I don't know the status of any of Allen's patents or copyrights on that process, I cannot sell it (and wouldn't want to, anyway). Since Allen is discontinuing the sales of those cards soon, I suspect they really don't care that someone broke their code. (And I may not be the only one to have done that, either.) I expect that qualified Allen technicians know about it, though.</P>


                        The only way I can think of right off to convert a sampled waveform to data for input to the spreadsheet would be to get a printed copy of one full waveform and trace it onto a paper grid. You'll need to size it such that it is possible to divide one of the symmetrical halves into 16 uniformly-spaced vertical slices with the 1st slice beginning at the origin and 16th slice ending at the last x-axis crossing. Be advised that this will work only on waveforms that are "point-symmetrical"--that is, the right half is the reverse and inverse (backward and upside down) of the left half.because the electronics in the organ will take the 16 points you encode and make the rest of the 32-point waveform by point symmetry. Once you have a suitable waveform traced on the grid, you can use the y lines to estimate values of the amplitudes of the 16 slices (both positive and negative). The actual scale used for these amplitudes is not critical (use a fine enough scale to get good estimates) because the spreadsheet will adjust what you enter to give a maximum value of + or - 63; you then adjust this with the loudness factor. Pick values at the center of each slice. You may have to try a number of samples before you get a waveform template that has point symmetry--the waveforms are very sensitive to minor differences in phase (but the human ear doesn't hear those differences). If you cannot find a waveform with point symmetry you could possibly use the full cycle as the sample and divide it into 16 slices. Doing that wouldproduce a symmetrical waveform,and it might sound something like the sample. (I'm not sure what reversing and inverting every other half of the waveform would do to the tone. I think it would introduce some recurrent phase shifts.)</P>


                        I understand that Allen actually did make waveform samples and directly encoded them into the values on the cards. I presume they looked at many samples of a stop at various pitches and came up with a reasonable average of the group (with point symmetry) to be used. I don't know for a fact, but I think the stored samples for standard stops are fully encoded with 32 points, and symmetry is not essential for those.</P>


                        As for using random punched cards in the Allen, I'm guessing that onlya few data points ever get entered from those cards and so the waveforms generated would be like spikes or bumps at the crossover points with a lot of zero values in the intervening positions. These would be stringy or horny. The reason for so few points being entered is that there is a pattern of 8 and 9 punches along the bottom of the real cards and these are markers that tell the reader to input the values in the associated column with each of those pairs. A random card may have only a couple of pairs of 8 and 9 punches that trigger an input, and the system just collects them as they come in and puts them sequentially into the memory; if there are only a few, they will be bunched together at the beginning of the group and all the rest will have zero values.</P>


                        David</P>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



                          We have to give credit to Allen Organ Co., or Jerome, or Ralph Deutsch, or whoever it was that really thought of this first. (I think it is generally thought to be Mr. Deutsch)
                          </p>

                          It was a very clever system for its time. If you think about the level of technology in the early 1970s, it must have been absolutely mind blowing. More than we can even conceive these days, certainly more than blackberries and ipods which are just advances on existing technology. There was no digital musical technology before 1971 (as a commercial product).
                          </p>

                          The Allen product engineer on the "owner's" yahoo group states that he suggested to Jerome a keypad entry device would make more sense for the last system with memory stored on chips, but Jerome said to stick with the interface we already have. I have to side with Jerome here - it being a lot faster to lay the cards in order used during service and quickly insert them then to have to remember or write down a bunch of codes. Besides they got the continuing revenue stream of card sales!</p>

                          </p>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question

                            [quote user="jbird604"]

                            BTW, the old-style card readers will "manufacture" a tone from any kind of a punched card you insert. Back in the old days when utility bills came in the form of IBM punched cards (as did government-issued checks -- remember IRS refunds that were on punched cards?) -- anyway, you could take one of these gas or electric bills, push it into the card reader and get some interesting new solo stops!</p>


                            Another way to play around with the card reader is to insert a card only part of the way and then pull it back out. You might discover some exciting new sounds that way!</p>

                            <p mce_keep="true">John[/quote]</p><p mce_keep="true">[quote user="myorgan"] </p><p mce_keep="true">When we registered for classes, all the classes were on a punch card,
                            and we'd collect them, then hand them in as a group to schedule our
                            classes for the semester. Before I handed my cards in, I'd go by the
                            organ and test them to see what sound they would product. Ironically,
                            most of them sounded like some sort of reed. </p><p mce_keep="true">[/quote]</p><p mce_keep="true">I couldn't help but laugh at what JBird and myorgan have tried with various punch cards! [:D]</p><p mce_keep="true">Funny that the semester punch cards sounded like reeds. I can imagine, if you have a lot of time and a puncher, that you can have a lot of fun experimenting with weird and wacky cards.
                            </p>
                            1971 Allen Organ TC-3S (#42904) w/sequential capture system.
                            Speakers: x1 Model 100 Gyro, x1 Model 105 & x3 Model 108.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Allen ADC Tone Card Question



                              Michael,</P>


                              Since you already have a bunch of cards for your MOS-2 organ, just try them in the ADC6000 and see what happens. I think they will work but I'm not sure they will produce the exact tone color, ortheymay have the correct tone but at a reduced level. I remember experimenting with that myself one time.</P>


                              Can't hurt to try.</P>


                              AFAIK, it was only the MADC models (1100 through 3160) that used the card system which simply called forth waveforms already stored in a ROM. The full-line ADC models (up through the8350) continued to use the system devised for the original MOS1 organs.</P>


                              I don't know what kind of card reader system was used in the firstMDS organs that came out in the late 80's as I was temporarily out of the loop during that period and have only serviced one or two of those. (For those of you who don't know me, that was a period of 2 or 3 yearsafter Allen changed dealers in AR, heused another tech, and I was out on my own with no major organ companies to represent --far different from the present, with mypartner and menow the statewideservice agents for ALL the major companies.)</P>


                              The later MDS models, known as "W-5" technology, were apparently sold in fargreater numbers than the early ones. W-5 models have no card readers.</P>


                              Please report your findings, Michael.</P>


                              John</P>
                              <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                              John
                              ----------
                              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                              Comment

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