I'm considering an arranger keyboard

[lparsons21]

Currently I have a Lowrey Palladium organ which is a big full console. I love the organ but have been thinking about adding to my small collection. I also have a Roland BK-7M backing module. Originally I was thinking another organ, but frankly space is an issue and the cost for an organ I would want is more than I want to spend. So now I'm looking at keyboards. Something to noodle with and also connect the BK-7M to. I can and have, connected the BK7M to the Lowrey but because of the sheer size and layout of the Lowrey, it isn't very handy to use.

Arranger keyboards I'm considering, either used or new are:
1. Korg PA600 or PA700
2. Korg PA4X - most likely only used because of cost.

Note no Yamahas, I'm just not fond of them for some reason.

I also took a serious look at the Hammond SKX but other than marketing crap there isn't much info out there about it. I can't even determine if it has the autos I use or styles and such. I've also considered a workstation like the Roland FA-06/08 and let the BK7M do all the styles and autos.

I'd appreciate some feedback and suggestions.

[abacus]

Unless you really want the arranger styles, I would go for a Workstation/Synth like the Korg Kronos (Or their smaller model) or Yamaha Montage, (Different to their arrangers) alternatively if you instruments have Midi (You can also buy separate Midi Keyboard Controllers) then a laptop/2 in 1 with something like Steinberg Halion 3 will give you all the sounds you want.

Bill

[lparsons21]

Thanks Bill.

I'm leaning to the arrangers as I would want to use the more modern styles that Lowrey doesn't have much of. The workstation/synths are fascinating but the only way they would work for me is if I could plug in the BK7M and split the keyboard so I could do the chording at the lower left end. So far I haven't been able to discern if that is possible.

[abacus]

Thanks Bill.

I'm leaning to the arrangers as I would want to use the more modern styles that Lowrey doesn't have much of. The workstation/synths are fascinating but the only way they would work for me is if I could plug in the BK7M and split the keyboard so I could do the chording at the lower left end. So far I haven't been able to discern if that is possible.

That’s easy, they have very comprehensive Midi capabilities, (Mainstream arranger Midi is naff in comparison) so you can use the BK7 without problems. (Haven’t checked the BK Midi but there is probably a chance that you will be able to use the Workstation sounds in the styles)

Bill

[lparsons21]

Thanks Bill.

I've been doing mostly research today on workstations. I'm leaning towards a couple that are reasonably priced with plenty of controls and features.

#1 on the list is the Roland FA-6/7/8. The controls make sense to me, it produces wonderful sounds and there is a pretty big free library of additional sounds and so forth at Roland's Axial site. Reviews look good and in many forums that discuss these types of things, it is well liked.

#2 is the Korg Krome. Touch screen is nice and it well built from what I've read. Reviews are a little less glowing than reviews of their more upscale workstations. Forum discussions are positive at korgforums and generally mixed when compared to the FA-x series. Unlike the Korg arrangers, there isn't much in the way of added sounds and such that I could find. Also noted is that used Korg Kromes on ebay are much cheaper than used Roland FA-x models. That is somewhat an indicator of how well the two compare.

I watched some demos and went through some video tutorials on both of these. I'm hoping that my local Roland guy has an FA-x in stock so I can put my hands on one. There is no Korg dealer down here, nearest is about 100 miles away. And I'm going to look at the upscale ones a bit though I doubt they'll fall into the price range that will make me happy.

As to BK styles using the workstation voices, that sounds interesting but so far I haven't seen how.

[lparsons21]

In the Korg forums I got into a discussion about the Krome. One guy recommended taking a look at the Casio MZ-X500 arranger/workstation. Kind of like a scaled down Yamaha Genos in that it does all the normal arranger things plus much of what a dedicated workstation will.

I researched it and found it very much to my liking based on reviews and forum discussions as well as the better YouTube videos. So I ordered it from a place that allows 30 day returns if it turns out I don’t. I just get stuck for shipping charges. I was frankly amazed that Casio came up in any discussion.

[ken horton]

Currently I have a Lowrey Palladium organ which is a big full console. I love the organ but have been thinking about adding to my small collection. I also have a Roland BK-7M backing module. Originally I was thinking another organ, but frankly space is an issue and the cost for an organ I would want is more than I want to spend. So now I'm looking at keyboards. Something to noodle with and also connect the BK-7M to. I can and have, connected the BK7M to the Lowrey but because of the sheer size and layout of the Lowrey, it isn't very handy to use.

Arranger keyboards I'm considering, either used or new are:
1. Korg PA600 or PA700
2. Korg PA4X - most likely only used because of cost.

Note no Yamahas, I'm just not fond of them for some reason.

I also took a serious look at the Hammond SKX but other than marketing crap there isn't much info out there about it. I can't even determine if it has the autos I use or styles and such. I've also considered a workstation like the Roland FA-06/08 and let the BK7M do all the styles and autos.

I'd appreciate some feedback and suggestions.

Hi, I went down this route years ago when most organs had poor backing units and I needed and still do need a good backing unit to help me out ! I have still got a Technics SMAC 1200 ( now unused ) and have had a number of orchestral units ,a BK7 m and Limex with the extra Blackpool soundboard but they all had problems when linking them into some organs, Yamaha in particular were not too good.
In the end I decided that the best backings were in keyboards and went for the discontinued Technics keyboards and bought a KN 7000, I now understand the KN 5000 is considered better. Technics no longer have anything to do with keyboards or organs but a group was formed who have revitalizes the site and provide lots of support and downloads of styles. The almost the full range of every Technics model's keyboard styles are freely available and a few Yamaha styles as well ! , at the moment I have about 800 styles on SD cards . I only use the keyboard for backings for the organ but as an independent unit it still is far from outdated even today.
The same idea of interchange applies I believe with the Yamaha Tyros range of keyboards, but the cost of an obsolete keyboard can be very reasonable and do a perfectly good job of providing a good backing.
I used to be a Yamaha man but always bemoaned the fact that their rhythm units never altered even if the organ model did, put a really good rhythm unit from any good keyboard into an EL or any other make and you would have a very good set up, but they would never do it . Ken Horton

[Davhol]

I absolutely love my Yamaha PSR S950.
GREAT sampled sounds. I connected to 2 Bose tower speakers and can almost blow the roof off! Paid $1800 new 5 yrs ago and $1000 per speaker.

[lparsons21]

Thanks for the write-up Ken.

The problem with using anything with the Lowrey is that they only document a very small bit of MIDI. Essentially the keyboards and pedals and all the rest is undocumented. You can use the styles of the backing unit or the ones on the organ since there is no documentation as to what the style/rhythm buttons on the Lowrey do. I've played around extensively with that over the years. The bigger problem with any of them is that the Palladium is such a huge monster that physically placing them in a way to make them easy to do on-the-fly changes is nearly impossible.

I ended up with a Korg Krome I got used for a good price and a Casio MZ-X500. The former is a workstation, basically a DAW in a box with keyboard. The latter is an arranger. The Casio is nice and much more powerful and flexible than any Casio I've seen in the past, but Casio support and documentation is sorely lacking. No YouTube tutorials or nearly so, and none from Casio themselves. The bulk of them are not in English, but a few at least have English subtitles. The forum is good in some ways, but not very active. I'm leaning heavily on sending it back and getting a Korg PA-600 or 700 instead. The Casio has an owners manual and a 'tutorial', both relatively small books and the tutorial is pretty bad. Essentially pointing out some of the more advanced features but no methodology.

Reading the various manuals I found that Korg goes whole hog into the manuals, as does Yamaha. Casio just doesn't.

- - - Updated - - -

I absolutely love my Yamaha PSR S950.
GREAT sampled sounds. I connected to 2 Bose tower speakers and can almost blow the roof off! Paid $1800 new 5 yrs ago and $1000 per speaker.

I've always like the sound of the Yamahas, just didn't like the user interface, seemed to fiddly and they are button happy! :)

[andyg]

If you think that the Yamahas have a fiddly operating system, then the best of luck if you get a Korg! While the Korg is a great instrument and ultimately more flexible than the 'equivalent' Yamaha, perhaps, its operating system and way of working is more complex. Yamaha's manuals do make sense - if you already have some idea of how the keyboard works! I regularly do tuition sessions for new high-end Yamaha owners, to show them that they can often forget the book! An hour or so's 1 to 1 tuition shows them just how friendly the keyboard really is! Makes no difference if they're 8 or 80!

[geoelectro]

If you think that the Yamahas have a fiddly operating system, then the best of luck if you get a Korg! While the Korg is a great instrument and ultimately more flexible than the 'equivalent' Yamaha, perhaps, its operating system and way of working is more complex. Yamaha's manuals do make sense - if you already have some idea of how the keyboard works! I regularly do tuition sessions for new high-end Yamaha owners, to show them that they can often forget the book! An hour or so's 1 to 1 tuition shows them just how friendly the keyboard really is! Makes no difference if they're 8 or 80!

Andy, I think it's more what your used to. I have played Korgs since the M1 and currently play a Kronos. I do a lot of programming and since I came from the M1, then a Triton, the Kronos was just more "real-estate" than the Triton with added layers of programming. I service Yamaha and run a service center so I'm around them very often. However, when I try to play say a Motif, I get lost pretty quick with programming. They have a different language! I would agree the Korg Kronos (not sure of the Krome) is a deeper machine than say the Motif or Montage but it's familiar territory for me.

Geo

[lparsons21]

I've currently got a Korg Krome workstation and find it pretty easy to get around on. Much easier to me than the Yamaha I had quite a few years back. And I've watched a seemingly endless number of YouTube videos in my research which leads me away from Yamaha.

The problem for me is that there are no dealers of any of them in my area to I can go and put my hands on them. We do have a Roland and Yamaha dealer, but they don't handle any of the arrangers I would be interested in, and none of the workstations at all. I'll be returning the Casio today and ordering a Korg PA-700. I've been through the manual on it and watched the entire video tutorial series Korg put up on YouTube and it just seems it will fit me best.

[Duane_OD]

I'll be returning the Casio today and ordering a Korg PA-700. I've been through the manual on it and watched the entire video tutorial series Korg put up on YouTube and it just seems it will fit me best.

You will enjoy the PA-700. I've been playing portable keyboards since 1965, and currently have a Korg PA4x76. It is a wonderful keyboard. I bought a used Korg i3 in 2008. Moved to a Korg PA50 in 2009, then a PA-500 in 2010. I was looking at a PA600 last year, and my wife suggested that I go ahead and get the top of the line PA4x. It works well at live gigs, running through a pair of Turbosound ip500 tower speakers. Review all of the Korg videos on using the PA700.

Duane OD

[Kurzweil]

There are also older Rolands out there, the BK-9, and the ones it replaced, The E-80 and G-70. I may be slightly off on those numbers. The 80 is a self-amplified 61 note arranger and the 70 a 76 note with no speakers. Both sold for about $3500 and are now in the $800 range, or were a couple of years ago. The BK-9 is considered superior to both by members of the Roland-Arranger forum. They all have an excellent Hammond clone buiilt in and the two older ones have a vocal harmonizer. The BK-9 is ~20 lbs, the older ones closer to 50. The styles all exceed the capability of most organs. And a good thing since without the pedals, you need that thing to help out more.

It is unfortunate that Roland has dumped both organs and arrangers. They built some of the best in both areas. I won't attempt comparisons with Korg and Yamaha because I am mostly ignorant of the competition. I will mention the Yamaha PSR-3000. For me, the minuses were sounds that were simply too "sweet", particularly their drawbar organ. Pluses were exellent backing arrangements and the best vocal harmonizer that I've ever used. The PSR-1500 is similar with no harmonizer (I believe) and the 850 and 950 (could be off on those numbers) have many adherants. All that stuff should be reasonably priced today.

I do speak highly of Casio. I use a PX-330 for all of my jazz piano work where smooth registration changes and complex layering is not needed. The piano sound is excellent and the thing weighs 25 lbs with a weighted action. Built-in speakers too, great for quieter rehearsals. It is unfortunate that the presence of speakers seems to imply a less professional unit.

[andyg]

It is a shame that Roland pulled out of the arranger market, though they re-entered it through the back door with the BK 'Backing Keyboard' series. The G70 was a cracker, the E80 was great but gutless on its own speakers - I had to couch that in diplomatic terms when I reviewed it but Roland didn't contest what I wrote. Add a sub woofer and crank things up and the E80 sounds superb.

Roland, Tehnics and Yamaha all had similar operating systems on their arrangers - not surprising, perhaps, when you think that they all made organs. Korg never did, hence their different O/S. While I'd tend to agree with the comments earlier in the thread that compared the likes of the Kronos to Montage and Motif, they are synth/workstations - a different animal! I still maintain that Yamaha have the simplest O/S on an arranger, but as I said, everyone will have their own views. If you want a really awkward O/S, try some of the Ketron and Solton models, especially the earlier ones! But my Italian friends will tell me that hundreds of gigging Italian musos can't be wrong..........

I'm now in the process of changing my venerable Yamaha PSR-S900 for something newer - it's going to be a PSR-S970, but I'll wait until I can grab a clean used one at a good price locally. I have nothing else under consideration!