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Reverb goes quite after a while, every time - E312

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  • Reverb goes quite after a while, every time - E312

    Hey!

    I own a very nice E312, with a built in reverb speaker. Everytime I play with the internal speakers and with the reverb tablet active, the reverb works fine at first for about maybe 3-5 minutes but stops playing after a while. If I play for about 15 minutes more, sometimes the reverb comes back again.
    Does anyone know why this happens? The built in reverb is so beautiful, and some of the joy of playing goes away when the reverb does..


    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Try cleaning the RCA plugs on the spring unit and where they go to the amplifier. There's two "sides" to the reverb circuit. The drive circuit, and the recovery circuit. When the reverb is out, I like to thump the spring unit to see if it makes noise. If it does, the problem is in the drive circuit, if not, it's the recovery circuit.

    Geo

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    • #3
      Thank you.
      Yes when the reverb is out, I hit the reverb unit and it makes that reverb noise, that can be really loud! So that means the problem is with the recovery circuit i guess.
      How do I clean it?

      Thanks.

      Comment


      • #4
        Click image for larger version

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        This is the reverb circuit in the E100 series. In the middle is the reverb unit. To the left you can see the grey P303 plug, you should clean that one with De-oxit and some kitchen paper. Also: clean P304, the brown plug. You'll find both on the back of the main amplifier. Also: clean the plugs on the reverb unit itself. As you get sound when thumping the reverb spring, the problem is in the drive unit, the left part of the schematic. You can try to wiggle the left 7247 tube (V503) (the tube names are punched into the chassis) in its socket and you can clean the tube's pins with de-oxit. If this all doesn't help, try replacing the 7247 tube.
        Good luck!
        Joost Overmars
        Music teacher, arranger, conductor, author of textbooks for music education, Utrecht, The Netherlands
        A100 & Leslie 145, Nord Electro 5D 73 , XK1 & Leslie 1201Mk2
        Vintage Vibe Piano 73A, 1973 Clavinet D6

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by joostovermars View Post
          [ATTACH=CONFIG]21688[/ATTACH]
          . If this all doesn't help, try replacing the 7247 tube.
          I would replace C315,C317, and C320 way before I replaced a OEM hammond x tube with a $20 ****ese copy. I would also replace the wet caps in the power supply that make the +325 and +275, unless done already since 1996. Look on C3blot in the power supply for the production date YYWW where year is 19YY. Schematics are on captain-foldback.com
          Rubber doesn't hold up much past 20 years in a Hammond OEM electrolytic cap. See this thread about replacing them: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts...ps-choose.html
          If the wrong one of those cathode bypass caps I mentioned in the beginning shorted, they could have burned holes in the plate of the 7247 and any other tube with one. People love to swap out tubes, but with a short in the cathode circuit it would just burn a new one too. Change all the original rubber tires on your 66 mustaing, and the rubber caps on your 66 Hammond too. B3 has such a great reputation in part because it doesn't have any - the rubber caps are in the Leslie or tone cabinet. Read the safety sticky thread before touching anything under the deck. Simple rules, but you HAVE to follow them.
          Hammond E100 & H100 don't burn tubes much, unless the cathode bypass caps short. I have about 50 original 1967-68 ones. One of my H100 professionally maintained had cathode bypass caps changed about 80 with **** CDE's that needed it again in 2014. Another had 3 of 4 cathode bypass caps changed by dealer service in 68, 70, and 71, leaving the last for me in 2010. Cheapskate dealer service, Penny Owsley to go by the logo on the front and the recent moving stickers from LA.
          Last edited by indianajo; 02-27-2016, 05:36 PM.
          city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by joostovermars View Post
            [ATTACH=CONFIG]21688[/ATTACH]
            This is the reverb circuit in the E100 series. In the middle is the reverb unit. To the left you can see the grey P303 plug, you should clean that one with De-oxit and some kitchen paper. Also: clean P304, the brown plug. You'll find both on the back of the main amplifier. Also: clean the plugs on the reverb unit itself. As you get sound when thumping the reverb spring, the problem is in the drive unit, the left part of the schematic. You can try to wiggle the left 7247 tube (V503) (the tube names are punched into the chassis) in its socket and you can clean the tube's pins with de-oxit. If this all doesn't help, try replacing the 7247 tube.
            Good luck!
            Check resistor R336. This is in the drive circuit. The recovery circuit is working if you get sound hitting the spring unit. I recently had an E-series with this resistor open recently.

            Geo

            Comment


            • #7
              #Indianajo you're right about replacing the bypass caps. But I don't see how a cap can short out after 3-5 minutes normal service and come back to life when the organ is switched off for some time or after 15 minutes. It appears to be a warming up thing. So, a mechanical issue in the plugs, tube socket or tube itself. Or a bad soldering spot. Educate me if I'm wrong
              Joost Overmars
              Music teacher, arranger, conductor, author of textbooks for music education, Utrecht, The Netherlands
              A100 & Leslie 145, Nord Electro 5D 73 , XK1 & Leslie 1201Mk2
              Vintage Vibe Piano 73A, 1973 Clavinet D6

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jonathan Alfie View Post
                Hey!

                I own a very nice E312, with a built in reverb speaker. Everytime I play with the internal speakers and with the reverb tablet active, the reverb works fine at first for about maybe 3-5 minutes but stops playing after a while. If I play for about 15 minutes more, sometimes the reverb comes back again.
                Does anyone know why this happens? The built in reverb is so beautiful, and some of the joy of playing goes away when the reverb does..


                [ATTACH=CONFIG]21672[/ATTACH]
                Clean the related tubes pins and resit tubes a few times in the sockets to clean them too. Can try tube swap also.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by joostovermars View Post
                  It appears to be a warming up thing.
                  Typical behavoir of every piece of 40 year old consumer audio equipment. I've replace about 300 electrolytic caps in the last 5 years, am listening to a 1970 built amp right now. Cincinnati Pops on a CD. I put new e-caps in it in January. The transistors and resistors are 1970. The 1970 Schober recital organ amp and speaker sound good, just a little light on the bass.
                  Burn those tubes, they are only $20 apiece. Those cathode bypass caps cost a whole $.09 you wouldn't want to replace those, it takes real work.
                  I think blhristov owns stock in a tube factory, the way he advises people to put new tubes into likely shorted sockets.
                  Yes, clean the pins, that is cheap and also likely. I haven't bothered to clean 78 of the 81 tubes in my three 1967-68 H100s.
                  Last edited by indianajo; 03-02-2016, 06:11 AM.
                  city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think blhristov owns stock in a tube factory, the way he advises people to put new tubes into likely shorted sockets.
                    You copy/paste two versions of the same long, long post of yours while my suggestions are based on the particular initial data, precisely for any individual case. I hope the OP won't follow you in replacing all hundreds of capacitors just because the are capacitors.

                    So you say that the likely shorted socket unshorts as mentioned by the OP bellow?

                    Everytime I play with the internal speakers and with the reverb tablet active, the reverb works fine at first for about maybe 3-5 minutes but stops playing after a while. If I play for about 15 minutes more, sometimes the reverb comes back again.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by blhristov View Post
                      So you say that the likely shorted socket unshorts as mentioned by the OP bellow?
                      Likely both a shorted cathode bypass capacitor overheating the 7247 tube, and also a main B+ cap coming & going causing the sound to come & go. 3 of 4 cathode bypass caps shorted and replaced in H100 #9574 by 1972, 4 of 4 replaced in #2211 by southern Illinois tech about 1985. 2211 also got 2 new B+ cap sections, 9574 got one B+ cap in 1995 in LA when the motor cap burned the motor wire harness. .
                      Your tube experience comes from C's B's M's which have only one cathode bypass cap. And that one is not as tiny as the ones in H100's & e100's. Some of the H ones were tantalum, which were a longevity disaster in 1967.
                      Note I use the word electrolytic when I describe doomed capacitors. I think I counted 28 in an E100. The polyester film ones, I've never found a bad one.
                      city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Also check the miniature lamp. If it's in a socket that's another possible intermittent connection.

                        td

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by indianajo View Post
                          Likely both a shorted cathode bypass capacitor overheating the 7247 tube, and also a main B+ cap coming & going causing the sound to come & go
                          It doesn't work that way. If anything of this was true there would be other clues not just sound going and coming back.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The original poster doesn't know his bass is missing or not. He just bought the E100 as is, he wasn't in the showroom in 1967.
                            Hammond tracks on television don't have bass lines, that is played by an electric bass player.
                            99.99% of people think my organ sounds like ****. That's because as is, where is, only 200-2000 hz makes it to the speaker on 99.99% of them.
                            E100 was designed in the same era with the same principles and same parts.
                            The poster could easily buy a DVM and detect or refute power supply problems or cathode bypass problems. B+ problems show as low plate voltage, cathode bypass problems show as normal plate voltage and low grid voltage. However it is cheaper and faster to look at the date on the e-caps.
                            There is no sense saving $.09 on that cathode bypass cap, to buy the $8 B+ cap and pay $9 freight to get it shipped in from the warehouse. Or $35 on an original looking can cap. Swapping tubes with shorted cathode bypaass cap is like morphine, habit forming and expensive. But very attractive to new users.
                            At this point, 99% of posters would rather buy and move another organ than spend $90 on tools, $20 on e-capacitors, and repair an E100. Even if the other organ costs $5000 like a C3 does these days. Ebl*** bought a technics.
                            city Hammond H-182 organ (2 ea),A100,10-82 TC, Wurlitzer 4500, Schober Recital Organ, Steinway 40" console , Sohmer 39" pianos, Ensoniq EPS, ; country Hammond H112

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