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  • M3 issues

    I got an M3 from a guy I know...the thing plays fine....but the scanner I found out is stuck...and keeps sticking..I opened it 2 times already.and spayed it.with lube 1 day had it running next day it was jammed again tight..2 day sprayed it again got it to run yesterday so far its running but what to do if it continues to stick...enor.or bobman or someone ever had this problem...
    M3(3).M103(3)-M101(1)-L112(1)-L122(1)-(1)H182.H345(1)T312(2)-T582(1)-16462-(1)Aura(1)-C2-with 122 Leslie(1)-CV with D20 cab.(1)710Leslie(1).Thomas Stereo church organ(1).Lowery Deluex(1)kimball swinger 1000.(needs fixed)

  • #2
    Take apart completely - lubricate - clean the phenolic insulators - paint the inside of the scanner - put back together. Hey presto - scanner as good as new (or better)
    Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
    Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

    Comment


    • #3
      Lol..thats a good one enor but..what heck do have to paint it inside for I Dont Git it.?and thanks for the info..
      M3(3).M103(3)-M101(1)-L112(1)-L122(1)-(1)H182.H345(1)T312(2)-T582(1)-16462-(1)Aura(1)-C2-with 122 Leslie(1)-CV with D20 cab.(1)710Leslie(1).Thomas Stereo church organ(1).Lowery Deluex(1)kimball swinger 1000.(needs fixed)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ang View Post
        Lol..thats a good one enor but..what heck do have to paint it inside for I Dont Git it.?and thanks for the info..
        Because, the biggest issue with the vibrato scanners is their tendency to grow metallic "hair" or "whiskers" on the metal surfaces - often referred to as "dendrites". These short out the scanner, causing a motorboating (pulsating) sound instead of the vibrato.

        Painting the metal surfaces of the scanner prevents this metallic whisker growth.
        Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
        Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ang View Post
          I got an M3 from a guy I know...the thing plays fine....but the scanner I found out is stuck...and keeps sticking..I opened it 2 times already.and spayed it.with lube 1 day had it running next day it was jammed again tight..2 day sprayed it again got it to run yesterday so far its running but what to do if it continues to stick...enor.or bobman or someone ever had this problem...
          If it is sticking, you will need to take it apart and clean then re-oil the shafts and bearings.
          You will need to remove the rotor to get the shaft completely out, and that requires a Bristol wrench or sometimes a jeweler's screwdriver that is filed to fit can work if the set screw is not too tight. Look at the video to see what I am talking about.
          It is a good idea to disassemble completely and clean all the residue from all the phenolic washers while you have it apart.
          Look at the video on my Youtube page. (I really need to redo this video, as I came up with a technique for easier reassembly.)

          Some people paint the inside of the scanner cover, but I personally think it is a bad idea.
          I realize that I have only rebuilt about 50 of these, but I have never once seen whiskers on the inside of the cover. Ever. The inside is usually too oily to allow whisker growth, and the cover looks like it is not zinc plated so it would not grow whiskers, anyway.
          The other reason is that getting any paint to stick to this metal is tricky at best. I would be afraid that the paint would chip off over time.
          The third reason is that this thing has functioned fine for 40 years, and just cleaning it will get you another 40.
          I find that the most likely place for whisker growth is the base part...the part that all the stators are screwed to, and then it is more likely on the outside of the scanner. I have actually fixed a motorboating scanner by spraying the outside part with CRC QD cleaner. My theory was that there was debris on the outside that was shorting the terminals that was attracted by all the oil. Oil alone will not cause a problem, it is the contaminants that the oil attracts.

          Bob
          In theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.
          In reality, there is.
          '54 C-2 & Pair of 122 Leslies
          H-324/Series 10 TC
          '35 Model A (Serial# 41) with a 21H
          Look at some of my rescues:
          https://www.flickr.com/photos/58226398@N03/albums

          Comment


          • #6
            Yup thats what I thought to about what enor said to paint it inside and was wondering why..I was worryed about the paint cracking too so I'll clean it but not sure if I'll paint it..just a little worryed tho..but...hay enor or bobman..can u do me a favor and look up my series number and tell me what year it is...its 129489.let me know what year it is and when it was sent out from the factory I hate looking up that kinda stuff...thanks for the info..
            M3(3).M103(3)-M101(1)-L112(1)-L122(1)-(1)H182.H345(1)T312(2)-T582(1)-16462-(1)Aura(1)-C2-with 122 Leslie(1)-CV with D20 cab.(1)710Leslie(1).Thomas Stereo church organ(1).Lowery Deluex(1)kimball swinger 1000.(needs fixed)

            Comment


            • #7
              That serial puts it around 1959
              http://www.tonewheelgeneral.com/agelist/agelist.php

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ang View Post
                hay enor or bobman..can u do me a favor and look up my series number and tell me what year it is...its 129489.let me know what year it is and when it was sent out from the factory I hate looking up that kinda stuff...thanks for the info..
                You "hate looking up that kinda stuff". FYI: It is by looking stuff up that you actually _learn_ stuff. So my advice is to start looking up stuff or forever be dependent on various internet forums.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Bobmann View Post
                Some people paint the inside of the scanner cover, but I personally think it is a bad idea.
                I realize that I have only rebuilt about 50 of these, but I have never once seen whiskers on the inside of the cover. Ever. The inside is usually too oily to allow whisker growth, and the cover looks like it is not zinc plated so it would not grow whiskers, anyway.
                My guess is it's a climate thing. I of course have far less experience than Bobmann, having only done maybe 10 scanners so far - but ALL of them have had some amount of whiskers/metallic dust on the inside. In Sweden, this is.

                I have had no problems getting paint to stick to the scanner metal - quite the opposite, thay take paint very well.
                Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ang View Post
                  Yup thats what I thought to about what enor said to paint it inside and was wondering why..I was worryed about the paint cracking too so I'll clean it but not sure if I'll paint it..just a little worryed tho..
                  A few years ago it was a common thread of discussion on the hammond list and other forums to 'coat' the inner face of the scanner (the one with all of the stators attached) with a dose of Krylon Clear lacquer as a means to further prevent/deter the build up of dendrites when doing a scanner service. I also seem to recollect this action being mentioned on Wayne Prue's website (b3sforsale.com) and in a very informative Restoration Manual that he created some years ago. Wayne certainly had a reputation of doing excellent works and was very fastidious (photo's and documentation in his manual certainly supports this). Another source where you can take a look at info on spraying/painting or using lacquer on the inside of vib-scanners is here: http://www.sl-prokeys.com/prokeys/scanner.htm. Steve Leigh (sl-prokeys) is without exception highly experienced in all things Hammond, his website has a mine of information and historical anecdotes associated with it.

                  As to myself, I have done a few scanners (about same as enor) and I tend to take the approach of polishing rather than painting. This makes sense to me during rebuild as I am not doing it on a commercial basis and the extra bit of time taken is not an issue for me.

                  I have never found dendrites but have met with some extremely oily vib-scanners (particularly from those versions that had the additional -3rd- piece of copper tube going directly into the scanner combined with an over zealous oiler!). I don't mind the oily one's because that is just a nice clean-up job. Have also had one with a jammed rotor that exhibited what looked like burn/heat marks on the inside.

                  If these things are 40-60 years old, then I feel sure that a good clean/polish will make it at least another 20+ years before having to repeat (assuming that someone doesn't drown it in oil first).

                  Polished, not painted as below:
                  Click image for larger version

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                  Note that when the run motor is detached, I normally provide support to the front of the motor so that at no time does the flywheel exert any pressure onto the run motor shaft.

                  And, heat markings from a stuck rotor on one scanner:
                  Click image for larger version

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                  1966 C-3 / 925
                  1965 M102 / 145
                  1967 M111A / 330

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is going to be one of those things like TG recapping...lots of opinions and theories.

                    Peter's picture reflects what I have seen. Look carefully at the cover and base, and note that it looks as if they are made from different metals.
                    I do not think that the cover is made from zinc plated metal which means that it will not grow whiskers.
                    If I were to paint anything, it would be the base and not the cover...and even then my opinion is that it is not necessary.

                    I know that there are many very competent, knowledgeable and skilled people out there who insist on painting. I do not in any way disrespect their opinions, I do very much value their input and experience.
                    I just tend to sometimes look at these subjects differently based on my experiences as an industrial machine builder and tool and die maker and 45 years dealing with galvanized steel.
                    For example, some of these people also soak the scanner parts in gasoline for many hours...which is not only dangerous, but totally unnecessary.
                    I will never say that my way is always right, because it isn't...it's just the way I do it. I just offer my opinion and everyone who listens can decide what is best for themselves.

                    Getting paint to go on is seldom a problem.
                    Having the paint stay long term is the issue. I would be concerned that environmental conditions inside the scanner would affect the paint had have it soften and chip or peel off over time.
                    Just my opinion.


                    BTW...if you do ever need to paint a zinc plated (galvanized) surface, the best prep is to clean thoroughly with solvent like Acetone or Lacquer Thinner, then clean thoroughly with Vinegar. This will etch the surface and help the paint adhere.

                    Bob
                    In theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.
                    In reality, there is.
                    '54 C-2 & Pair of 122 Leslies
                    H-324/Series 10 TC
                    '35 Model A (Serial# 41) with a 21H
                    Look at some of my rescues:
                    https://www.flickr.com/photos/58226398@N03/albums

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yup Bob I think you are right on that..I may or may not paint it inside but I'll pull it appart.but funny thing is that I'm I kick it over with a small screwdriver from the push off it will run fine but soon as I leave it set a wile it sticks again..??.so I Dont know.Maby good idea to Git it out and clean it and lube it up properly.
                      M3(3).M103(3)-M101(1)-L112(1)-L122(1)-(1)H182.H345(1)T312(2)-T582(1)-16462-(1)Aura(1)-C2-with 122 Leslie(1)-CV with D20 cab.(1)710Leslie(1).Thomas Stereo church organ(1).Lowery Deluex(1)kimball swinger 1000.(needs fixed)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bobman your post about painting the inside of the scanner makes perfect sense to me, also painting the inside of the scanner, could cause difficulty in relocating and placing the phenolic washers due to varying paint thickness.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hammond issued a service bulletin that instructed technicians to paint this cover with Krylon Corona Dope. For some reason, the people on HAMTECH decided that Corona Dope and car paint were the same thing, and so recommended Krylon clear coat since Krylon Corona Dope was out of production.

                          Corona Dope is a a type of insulating varnish. While Krylon clear coat will perform basically the same job, it is probably not as "hard" as Corona Dope, may not last as well in a mineral oil environment, and is no better than any other paint of similar formulation. If you want to get as close to Hammond's recommendation as possible, you should use Corona Dope from another maker, such as MG Chemicals part number 4226, available at fine electronics distributors everywhere.

                          The purposes of the Corona Dope is to insulate the inside of the cover, under and around the phenolic insulators, so that the oil/whisker sludge which can build up in there does not bridge the gap between the air capacitor vanes and the cover (ground).

                          The cover appears to be electroplated with zinc and the air capacitor vanes appear to be electroplated with cadmium. Both of these materials will grow whiskers over time. The precaution Hammond listed in the TSB is very sensible in my opinion.

                          http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/vibrato_tsb/

                          Wes

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The M3 at the 'shop' is a work in progress for twenty years now.Still haven't done the lower manual bass foldback.
                            I hand oiled the fourth and fifth bins from the run motor end again to get #76 to behave again! Gave it oil.
                            Then I hung the 'franken' 760's (122/45) off it for another three hours of playing,idling,testing.
                            Found two suspect 9 pin cable ends that need attention.I need one of each.
                            The third cable that has the broken female will receive a new one and the other will donate a recycled male plug

                            The scanner cleaning this M3 got twenty years ago still works great! No paint.The 1' foldback with no tapering is a great V21 tester!
                            A100/251 A100/147 A102/222 B2/142 BV/147 BCV/145 M3/145 M102/145 M111/770 L101/760 T222/HL722 M111/770 no B3/C3!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Wes thanks for the info and thanks for the link..but since I opened back of scanner where the push off is I sprayed it with lube and finely got it going.so far its not sticking I left it sit awile now and tryed it yesterday and its working but we will see if it sticks again..I put more Hammond oil in the wicks and in the oil place u are sposed to put it it seems to be freeing up..so who's to tell..we will see if it sticks when I let it sit awile.I'll let u guys know if this happenes

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Yah hay sweet Pete got question I know I should not talk about this under this post but I see u have a M102 I have a M101.and a couple of M103's..and there fine but my M101 I still can't figure out 1 thing I have no drawbars on one of the half keys its the third. Black key on upper Manuel..can't seem to iron out the problem but not really concerned about it tho but what do u think..key contact??..or what to check out..I will post about this under my other M post..
                              M3(3).M103(3)-M101(1)-L112(1)-L122(1)-(1)H182.H345(1)T312(2)-T582(1)-16462-(1)Aura(1)-C2-with 122 Leslie(1)-CV with D20 cab.(1)710Leslie(1).Thomas Stereo church organ(1).Lowery Deluex(1)kimball swinger 1000.(needs fixed)

                              Comment

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